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Transition, and shifts in gender orientation

Started by Michelle_P, November 30, 2018, 06:21:07 PM

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Michelle_P


I was recently interviewed for an article on unexpected shifts or discoveries in gender orientation for folks coming out after age 30.  I had a few thoughts on the topic that I expressed in the interview, and I thought I would get them in writing for our members.

https://www.bustle.com/p/discovering-my-sexuality-after-i-was-30-was-confusing-this-is-what-i-wish-i-knew-13168529

I believe my shift in orientation, fundamentally becoming open to a larger range of partners, was due more to my recognizing and breaking down social taboos on orientation than any innate shift from hormone replacement therapy (HRT) or transition-related surgeries.

Our gender orientation, sexual and romantic, is built in layers.  There is a biological primitive, a bit of our brains wired to recognize other people as possible mates or competitors.  This sets the core of our sexual orientation.  We see others and this bit of our brain identifies those who might be possible mates or sexual partners, based on what can be perceived.  It tends to be a pretty broad sort of classification filter, and there are correlations such that it appears to be set in fetal development during the third trimester by the testosterone level the developing brain is exposed to.

In my case, the filter seems to favor femme appearance as a possible mate.

Our culture insists on certain behaviors as being acceptable.   Since this body was assigned male at birth, this culture had insisted that while growing up and presenting as male, that I only select persons with a strongly femme appearance as a potential mate.  That more or less matches my brain's setting, so that was OK.  I accepted the cultural conditioning and assumed that was just how I was.

Ah, but then I came to accept my true nature, and violated cultural taboo by coming out and transitioning.  It turns out that breaking one taboo and surviving makes it easier to break other taboos.

Post-transition I, as a woman attracted to women, identified my orientation as a lesbian.  (Cis-lesbian readers, I understand how you may feel about this.  Just read on, please.  This is just my orientation, not culture!)

I was in a transgender person support group meeting, and sitting next to me was a man, with a lovely red-orange beard and reddish leg hair.  They were very kind and open, and I liked them.  In fact, I found myself fantasizing about them.  Now, where was THIS coming from?

After considerable introspection and discussion with some very good sexuality specialists, I realized that the people I am attracted to have not actually identified their genitalia to me, and that the women I did attractive are actually just a subset of persons with some strongly feminine aspects that I admire.  That is I am attracted to persons with some strongly femme attribute to their presentation, and not to some particular set of genitalia.

I rather flippantly describe my orientation now as lesbian with a 30% chance of queer.

This change was driven by my being more open to questioning cultural norms, and I beleive it was not affected by my HRT or surgery, beyond those resulting from my initially challenging and violating cultural norms.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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HappyMoni

Michelle,
   Shift in gender orientation or sexual orientation?  I had read that article and did not realize that was you. I am honored to be in the presence of a celebrity. lol Good on you for doing it.
   I think for anyone changing orientation, they have a very personal set of circumstances behind why that happens. Mine would be quite different than what you describe. I will say that I find kindness to be a very attractive quality to me. Who I see as sexually attractive also has a great deal to do with the role I fill in comparison to that person. Surgery has played a part in this.
Moni
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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LizK

For me I don't see it as much of a shift but more of a "allowing" or "opening of mind". I recognise that whilst presenting as male I could not entertain the idea of another man wanting me because I was a man. I was perfectly ok if he was a man wanting me as a woman. I am also perfectly Okay with women although my needs and wants are going to be very different in a few days... I assume women will do it for me as well(don't know for sure) but when I fantasize its not the ladies I think about...I never allowed myself to consider a relationship with a guy because he would want me for all the wrong reasons....For me its going to be more about the person than their gender.

Take care

Liz
Transition Begun 25 September 2015
HRT since 17 May 2016,
Fulltime from 8 March 2017,
GCS 4 December 2018
Voice Surgery 01 February 2019
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Nikkimn

Pre-transition I had no attraction to men and I was only attracted to women. After about 6 months on HRT I started to notice men and now I'm pansexual with a strong preference for masculine men. I still find women attractive but not as strongly as I once did. For me the barrier with men pre transition is I was turned off about being male and having men interested in me for my masculinity but me as a woman changed things and now I find it really contrasts my femininity well.


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pamelamoore2706

Quote from: Nikkimn on December 01, 2018, 02:43:36 AM
Pre-transition I had no attraction to men and I was only attracted to women. After about 6 months on HRT I started to notice men and now I'm pansexual with a strong preference for masculine men. I still find women attractive but not as strongly as I once did. For me the barrier with men pre transition is I was turned off about being male and having men interested in me for my masculinity but me as a woman changed things and now I find it really contrasts my femininity well.


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We are all very individual I think. I'm not sure there is a generic story. In my old persona I hadn't thought about men but I think there were masculine traits I admired and naturally prized in girlfriends. Since I discovered my real self I have found that I am exclusively interested in men for which my boyfriend is very thankful [emoji16][emoji16]


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Kylo

I've never been particularly observant of cultural norms. I knew I was bisexual around the age of 13-14, and I didn't feel a hint of guilt or questionableness in that, which if I had would imply I'd been paying attention to cultural norms. I haven't experienced any change after transition and HRT in orientation though. 
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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Alice (nym)

Quote from: HappyMoni on November 30, 2018, 11:54:43 PM
I will say that I find kindness to be a very attractive quality to me. Who I see as sexually attractive also has a great deal to do with the role I fill in comparison to that person. Surgery has played a part in this.
Moni

I am the same as you Moni. I find kindness the most sexually attractive quality... followed by charisma. My concept of physical beauty changes according to how people interact with me. So if you look at my past partners, they have all been very different physically but very similar in personality. At the moment that translates in female partners but only because men have rarely treated me with that sort of kindness before. That might change as I change. If a man steps in to defend me in the future, then I am likely to start finding them attractive.
Don't hate the hate... Start spreading the love.
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HappyMoni

   I have been thinking about this and I will put this out there. Please be kind if you differ in your thoughts.  I think we trans people who have partners hope upon hope that our partners are flexible enough to accept a 'changed gender' partner. That could be with or without the sexual component depending on the individuals. SO's are faced with tremendous change in their partner and it affects their self concept as well. Not being an SO, I don't know what social pressures that that brings on them. I imagine some pressure is of the 'you should stay' variety and some is 'you should leave.' As a trans person I feel tremendous social pressure to not have  my sexual orientation change. The hope upon hope is that that part needs to stay the same. I went to my medical professional the other day. She treats trans people. She stated that change in sexuality for transitioning people is pretty common. From what I have  seen on these boards, it is not uncommon on here either. I so often see new people agonizing over whether trans feelings they have are legitimate because they have a sexual  component to them. "Maybe this is just a fetish, and I'm not really trans." (In some cases, it may be true.) But to me, we are sexual beings who happen to be trans as well, and sometimes that sexuality can be squeezed to try to make all this work.  After all, we are often trying to be sexual with the wrong body parts. We seek changes because it doesn't work. So, once we are able to express our true selves (through social interactions, hormones, body part changes, and self concept changes) our sexuality is no longer squeezed as it is when in the wrong gender configuration. For some, this means orientation change, for others, it stays the same. For some, the ship stays on course, for others, a course correction is needed. I don't care to judge either group. What we all aim for is being happy, to not be tortured with dysphoria. The tricky part is this. How do you find your own personal happiness and not hurt others in the process. You can have an amazing relationship, be happy with so much, and be faced with desires that don't fit that life. Does it become a happiness versus hurting loved ones scenario? Yeah, maybe. I don't think orientation can any more be controlled than being trans can be.
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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Rachel

Everyone is different so I think orientation is very much an individual experience. I agree in that suppressed orientation will eventually lead to change when free from suppression.

I have always been attracted sexually to guys but suppressed that to fit in. I like to socialize with woman and find generally attractive in body and personality. Guys can be extremely attractive in body but many times no matter how physically attractive there are there are turn offs. Mostly around being too nice or complete jerks. There are some guys that are physically attractive and are fun to be with and being difficult (not jerks) rarely. They are the ones I want to be with. 
HRT  5-28-2013
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HappyMoni

Quote from: Rachel on December 09, 2018, 06:37:07 PM
Everyone is different so I think orientation is very much an individual experience. I agree in that suppressed orientation will eventually lead to change when free from suppression.


I see it as definitely not a suppression as much as an evolution. I never felt I suppressed any attraction in my case.
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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KathyLauren

I have wondered about whether or not I was suppressing any attraction to men.  After more than a year and a half full-time and nearly two years on HRT, I have felt not the slightest urge in that direction.  So I am starting to conclude that the interest was just never there.  I have always found men kind of icky, and it embarassed me that I was (apparently) one of them.

My awareness of my orientation has shifted a bit, though.  I knew I was lesbian before I knew I was a woman.  (Yes, I know that makes no sense, but that's how it was.)  But since transitioning, I now realize that I am mostly asexual and always have been.

Being in a long-term relationship, I am happy that nothing has happened to my orientation that would shake things up.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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pamelatransuk

Thank you Michelle for such an interesting thread. I am aware that most transitioners do not change sexual orientation but that it does happen to some and I can completely understand and believe what you state.

I never married and as a man had a few girlfriends for romantic reasons many years ago and have been celibate for over 30 years. I am 63 and on HRT 10 months and will publicly transition in 2019. Unlike Kathy I knew I was trans as a child of 4 and realized I was "not really interested in either" and hence mainly asexual aged 20.

However last year aged 62 I realized that like Kathy I am of course asexual with minor lesbian tendencies.

Hugs to all

Pamela


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GingerVicki

2.5 months in and starting to notice guys more and women less.
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DawnOday

I have always admired women. Not necessarily because of sex but because I admired their beauty, their compassion, their ability to nurture. Maybe sex would have been more prominent if my equipment were not so lacking. It is easy to love but hard to express with all the expectations and not being able to perform.  I value character more than sexual orientation so I can say I love my male friends as much as my female friends. It's just men don't usually show much character they would rather be macho. Even the most feeble examples believe they are sexual Gods.
Dawn Oday

It just feels right   :icon_hug: :icon_hug: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss: :icon_kiss:

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First indication I was different- 1956 kindergarten
First crossdress - Asked mother to dress me in sisters costumes  Age 7
First revelation - 1982 to my present wife
First time telling the truth in therapy June 15, 2016
Start HRT Aug 2016
First public appearance 5/15/17



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VickyS

This is a fascinating thread.  Thank you, Michelle for starting it.

Since I was aware of attraction at around age 10 I have liked boys and girls but socially suppressed the boy part as I as was in a Catholic school.

My first sexual partner was male and it was so incredibly intense that nothing has come near it since.  It was a big secret and nobody knew.  My only female sexual partner was my wife although she knows that just before we got together, I was on the rebound from a different guy. It has never felt quite right using my male parts with either a male OR female partner and it was only after I realised I was trans that it clicked that I seem to have the sexuality of a heterosexual female.  Since that time, my sexual interest in women has dropped off, but my interest in men has been the same as it was.  Maybe it's the breaking of the taboo?

Interestingly, I can be attracted to women from a distance but as soon as I get close to them, that attraction drops off.  Conversely, I can be not attracted to a certain man but if I get really close then my attraction increases dramatically.  I noticed this when I had to bandage a guy's hand a work (as a first aider) as I was holding his hand it was electric!  It really shook me.  I tried a similar scenario with holding my wife's hand and a female friend and nothing...

I can be emotionally attracted to a woman, but not sexually any more and that is a shift since coming out and it can't be HRT as I'm not on it yet.

How I feel about trans men and women?  Well, that's a whole other can of worms that I'm trying to work though as I AM attracted to femininity AND masculinity, but male femininity and this might be some manifestation of internalised transphobia or it could be just as simple as if they look totally cis-female then the attraction drops off.  It's definitely a can of worms for me, but I think I'll have to take it on an individual basis and work out if I'm attracted at the time.

Interesting stuff!  ;D ;D ;D

V x
Came out to self: mid Oct 17                   Last haircut: 3rd Nov 17       
Came out to wife: 17th Jan 18                 Therapy started: 1st Mar 18
Electrolysis started: 10th Apr 18              Referred to GIC: 16th May 18
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Michelle_P

Quote from: VickyS on December 13, 2018, 11:25:26 AM
...
Interestingly, I can be attracted to women from a distance but as soon as I get close to them, that attraction drops off.  Conversely, I can be not attracted to a certain man but if I get really close then my attraction increases dramatically.  I noticed this when I had to bandage a guy's hand a work (as a first aider) as I was holding his hand it was electric!  It really shook me.  I tried a similar scenario with holding my wife's hand and a female friend and nothing...

I can be emotionally attracted to a woman, but not sexually any more and that is a shift since coming out and it can't be HRT as I'm not on it yet.
That's interesting!

One idle speculation is that change in our olfactory response that many report when starting HRT.  The sense of smell becomes much more acute in some of us, and I wonder if that also means some latent sensitivity to pheromones becomes more active.

I know in my case that some men started smelling very musky, almost acrid, and women seemed to have a slightly sweet scent, no, not Chanel, but something subtle even with women who were 'fragrance free'.  (I find I am not attracted to cis-males, and this might be a factor.)

I'm pretty sure I started giving off different pheromones.  After starting HRT, but not out and still passing as male, I noticed changes in posture of men around me.  In club meetings, for example, some of the older men shifted their posture, leaning in toward me or standing closer than they had a few months earlier.  I thought it was odd until I read about scent cues related to hormones.

Quote
How I feel about trans men and women?  Well, that's a whole other can of worms that I'm trying to work though as I AM attracted to femininity AND masculinity, but male femininity and this might be some manifestation of internalised transphobia or it could be just as simple as if they look totally cis-female then the attraction drops off.  It's definitely a can of worms for me, but I think I'll have to take it on an individual basis and work out if I'm attracted at the time.

It's an interesting question.  All I can suggest is being aware and honest with yourself, and keep note of feelings of attraction and the sensations around you.  Enjoy your explorations!
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
  •  

JanePlain

Quote from: KathyLauren on December 10, 2018, 11:00:04 AM
I have wondered about whether or not I was suppressing any attraction to men.  After more than a year and a half full-time and nearly two years on HRT, I have felt not the slightest urge in that direction.  So I am starting to conclude that the interest was just never there.  I have always found men kind of icky, and it embarassed me that I was (apparently) one of them.

My awareness of my orientation has shifted a bit, though.  I knew I was lesbian before I knew I was a woman.  (Yes, I know that makes no sense, but that's how it was.)  But since transitioning, I now realize that I am mostly asexual and always have been.

Being in a long-term relationship, I am happy that nothing has happened to my orientation that would shake things up.

Yes - how do you maintain the relationship with your spouse and go the whole 9 yards.  Right now I'm just trying to deal with being on HRT and having fessed up to my Doctor about it.  Which is all less then a week ago so going beyond that is difficult to ponder.  I've been wading in an inch at a time I guess.  I admire the bravery of those that jump in with both feet but....   Its just too much and I'm not sure but perhaps HRT is enough.   Being public and getting acceptance is not as important to me.  Internal change is really more my thing.   Which probably sounds very odd.

I guess it sounds odd to people who aren't feeling this way but how else would you describe being a lesbian before you knew you were a woman?  I think maybe the two just go together for some of us.  I think part of the difficulty is having to heap on one more thing that is going to add to the stigma that some people try to lay on us for existing.  The thing that is always a mystery is why people with no connection or experience are so sure they are right. 

I do hope that HRT doesn't shift my interest in women to men.  I obviously don't care for my own guy parts much less someone elses. 

Maybe this is just me but I've had a couple of odd experience with men coming out to me as gay and I've had to be "Ok, thats great and all but I'm sorry but I'm really not into men."   Maybe its the Radar picking up "different" and miss IDing? 

Feeling asexual can be (my opinion) the Hormone mix.  Dialing down estrogen to near zero blanked out my drive.  Having near zero testosterone had the same effect.  I think having none of either is a sure fire way to put out the fire.
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GingerVicki

I do not know if this has anything to do with it but my male orgasm is really lacking. I really get nothing out of it.  :icon_confused:

While the other one is now 10 times better in every way possible. One good one and I'm good for a week! The other one before transitioning took 3 to 4 times per week and at two attempts each time. And I would still be frustrated.

I would still have sex with a woman, but it would be a bit different if you know what I mean.  Probably TMI, but it is SO very true.
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JanePlain

"It has never felt quite right using my male parts with either a male OR female partner"

BINGO Wow that sure rings true.   Without this getting too TMI a "guy" who wears a strapon most of the time suddenly  makes a lot more sense. 
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KathyLauren

Quote from: JanePlain on December 13, 2018, 02:55:08 PM
Yes - how do you maintain the relationship with your spouse and go the whole 9 yards.

Either I got lucky in the spouse sweepstakes or my judgement 15 years ago was better than I thought.  She doesn't consider herself a lesbian though we are now a same-sex couple.  Rather, she considers herself "LBM": lesbian by marriage.  :D  Our relationship has been asexual for quite a few years, since she hit menopause, so that was not a factor for either of us.  So it comes down to the fact that she wasn't weirded out by remaining married to me.  She knows I am still the person she married, though I am now me 2.0.

Quote
Maybe this is just me but I've had a couple of odd experience with men coming out to me as gay and I've had to be "Ok, thats great and all but I'm sorry but I'm really not into men."   Maybe its the Radar picking up "different" and miss IDing? 

Yes, that is a thing.  It didn't happen to me as an adult, but it did when I was a teenager, long before I knew I was trans.  This guy's gaydar malfunctioned and he thought I was gay.  It was traumatic for me, and left me confused for a long time.

Quote
Feeling asexual can be (my opinion) the Hormone mix.  Dialing down estrogen to near zero blanked out my drive.  Having near zero testosterone had the same effect.  I think having none of either is a sure fire way to put out the fire.

My E is in the normal range for a pre-menopausal woman, and my T is unmeasurable.  The lack of T certainly shut off what libido I had.  But it is not just current lack of libido that makes me conclude that I am mostly asexual.  There are signs going way back in my life.  I didn't date a lot, and I was a virgin until I was 30.  I was never the one to initiate sex.  So, in hindsight, I would say that I was always close to asexual.  Which makes my current situation acceptable.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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