Using public restrooms.

[KimOct]

Dee - It's not that big a deal. Just passing chit chat, same as in the men's room.  Not long conversations - just a sentence or two in passing.  I promise it's not a girl's club in there. LOL

[Linde]

Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.

Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?

I want to be prepared.

~Dee.

I think it depends on the location of the restroom.  I was a few times at Costco in the female restroom, and nobody talked there.  It was there as quiet as it was in the men's room.  I also was once at TJ Max, and there was also no interpersonal conversation going on.

[Arianna Valentine]

Arianna - I am disappointed to read this.  There are no documented incidents of straight cis men dressing as women to sneak into a women's restroom to molest women or girls.  This is B.S. from bigots that is meant to scare people and shove us back into the closet where they want us.

I ask that you share a link from a reputable news source documenting one case of this happening.

Just use common sense.  What straight cis guy would be caught dead wearing a dress??  Seriously?? 

If someone wants to molest someone they are just going to do it - not put on a dress as a disguise and look what they think is ridiculous to try to pass as a woman and sneak into a restroom. 

This is an idiotic position that is promoted by bigots.  Please don't believe that stuff.

I don't think the problem is rather or not i believe it the general population believes this as for the link here is one from ABC news.

https://abcnews4.com/news/local/police-arrest-man-they-say-dressed-in-womens-clothes-to-spy-on-women-in-restroom

If you can't accept yourself,  how can you expect others to accept you?

[KimOct]

OK I will stand slightly corrected.   I spent the last 20 minutes researching this and I found 3 incidents.
1. The link that was provided was one case.
2. I found one that was posted on Breitbart (consider the source ) in 2016 in Utah.  I couldn't find it anywhere else.
3.  Some sketchy site that was a Walmart bashing site about a customer that was apparently arrested multiple times in public for exposing himself.

I understand your clarification that it isn't about YOU believing it - it is about the public believing it. 

That is why we need to make our voices heard - not stay in hiding - be ambassadors of goodwill - and show society that 99.99% of us are good law abiding people.

I would be willing to bet that many more women have been molested in restrooms by cis appearing men than 1 or possibly 2 or 3 men wearing dresses. 

Far right propaganda promoting this as a legitimate fear against transgender rights is beyond ridiculous.

[warlockmaker]

The bathroom for females is also a sanctury for FEMALES. Many female restrooms have a sitting area, its a place to escape without fear from men. Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state, Mens bathrooms are not a sanctury, its important to understand this. Thus, if you dont pass as a female you are entering this female sanctury without the credentials. It is totally inconsiderate, disrespectful and agressive if a female TGs, not passing enters.  It make many females feel violated, fearful and  uncomfortable. This becomes even more of a paranoia if they have female children. We need to win the hearts of the cis females and forcing this issue only increases hate.  I for one have the view that if you dont pass and are going out and may need to use bathroom facilities, then  dress androgenously. Mens toilets are not a sanctury. Arianna comments in my view have merit. And children do not have tg radar, they are being honest and truthful. Maybe this is hard for many to accept but it is my view of being considerate to others.

[TonyaW]

The bathroom for females is also a sanctury for FEMALES. Many female restrooms have a sitting area, its a place to escape without fear from men. Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state, Mens bathrooms are not a sanctury, its important to understand this. Thus, if you dont pass as a female you are entering this female sanctury without the credentials. It is totally inconsiderate, disrespectful and agressive if a female TGs, not passing enters.  It make many females feel violated, fearful and  uncomfortable. This becomes even more of a paranoia if they have female children. We need to win the hearts of the cis females and forcing this issue only increases hate.  I for one have the view that if you dont pass and are going out and may need to use bathroom facilities, then  dress androgenously. Mens toilets are not a sanctury. Arianna comments in my view have merit. And children do not have tg radar, they are being honest and truthful. Maybe this is hard for many to accept but it is my view of being considerate to others.

That's TERF talk.

We ARE female and have the right to use female spaces if presenting female.  Even if we don't pass.  If a cis female has a problem with it,  it is THEIR problem and not ours. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[IAmM]

The bathroom for females is also a sanctury for FEMALES. Many female restrooms have a sitting area, its a place to escape without fear from men. Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state, Mens bathrooms are not a sanctury, its important to understand this. Thus, if you dont pass as a female you are entering this female sanctury without the credentials. It is totally inconsiderate, disrespectful and agressive if a female TGs, not passing enters.  It make many females feel violated, fearful and  uncomfortable. This becomes even more of a paranoia if they have female children. We need to win the hearts of the cis females and forcing this issue only increases hate.  I for one have the view that if you dont pass and are going out and may need to use bathroom facilities, then  dress androgenously. Mens toilets are not a sanctury. Arianna comments in my view have merit. And children do not have tg radar, they are being honest and truthful. Maybe this is hard for many to accept but it is my view of being considerate to others.

This 100%, I can't even stress that enough. A restroom is not a restroom for women, it's OUR place, even a grubby ladies room in a train station.

Kathy, this is the second time, people here have said you actually may need to talk in the restrooms.

Not having used the Ladies yet, I am left wondering how common that is, and what sort of small talk goes on?

I want to be prepared.

~Dee.

It could be anything. Disney World in late afternoon it is entirely probable that you talk about how zonked the kids are and if they can make it to the evenings show/fireworks/dinner. On a long road trip it could be how you need to stretch your legs more than you want to make it to the end of the trip. Evening out it could be how much you like her dress and how bloated she feels in it right now. Or other stuff.

It is not uncommon. Last Ren Fair I washed my hands next to a woman that loved the falconer show as much as I did as her daughter kept talking about the tiny owl and could she get one.

I don't know what kind of talk it is, just talk. Sometimes it happens.

[KimOct]

I have to agree it is TERF talk. ( for those readers not familiar TERF is transgender exclusionary radical feminists = we don't count as women) Yet I do think it is important to be considerate of others.  For example in the women's locker room that I use at work if I need to change my clothes I go into a stall.  I don't have to I just do it to be considerate to try not to make anyone uncomfortable.

Some transwomen ( or transmen ) but particularly transwomen may never "pass".  I have a bad heart,  FFS is not an option for me, am I supposed to use the men's room?  I am legally female in every way. 

And at what point in transition is using the women's room permissible?  Where is the line drawn?

When you start seeing a therapist?  When you change your name?  When you have vaginoplasty?  When you change your birth certificate?

Passing is not the threshold.  Identifying should be.  BUT - that comes with being considerate.  If you present as a female then act like it.  And if you are not very passable walk in and out and mind your own business.

If transwomen cannot use public bathrooms we cannot go very far from home and then we are effectively shut out of society.

Our right to exist is not measured by our PASSABILITY .

[IAmM]

That's TERF talk.

We ARE female and have the right to use female spaces if presenting female.  Even if we don't pass.  If a cis female has a problem with it,  it is THEIR problem and not ours. 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Not passing but honest effort.

Forgive me but the way I see it, if you push like that people will push back. Bull our way in and we may never find acceptance.

More bluntly, WHAT!!!??? You say it like we are a majority that can make the rules. It is very much our problem. Rights are not innate but given by a consensus of the majority. They can be given ONLY and can just as easily be taken away.

Is this the way everyone here feels? I feel like I just started to walk through waist high Jello.

Ah... good luck.

[KimOct]

Forgets the bathroom legislation in your country or state/quote]


I am having trouble with the using the quote function but the above was part of warlockmaker's reply -

Wow, reading this I am struggling to remain polite.  These bathroom 'laws' are intended to marginalize us.  Anyone that thinks it is about safety is deluding themselves.

There are two sides to every issue.  We also have the responsibility to be considerate.

I had an orchiectomy (testicle removal ) but still have a penis.  Would I pee standing up?  Of course not.  That would be rude even in a stall.

Would I speak in my baritone voice? No that would be off putting.

We should be considerate.  AND we should have RIGHTS.

[KimOct]

I agree with IamM.  If you push people they will push back.  It is about being thoughtful, considerate and demanding your rights.  Compromise but not being erased.

Honest effort - not passability.

[dee82]

It could be anything. Disney World in late afternoon it is entirely probable that you talk about how zonked the kids are and if they can make it to the evenings show/fireworks/dinner. On a long road trip it could be how you need to stretch your legs more than you want to make it to the end of the trip. Evening out it could be how much you like her dress and how bloated she feels in it right now. Or other stuff.

It is not uncommon. Last Ren Fair I washed my hands next to a woman that loved the falconer show as much as I did as her daughter kept talking about the tiny owl and could she get one.

I don't know what kind of talk it is, just talk. Sometimes it happens.

I think it depends on the location of the restroom.  I was a few times at Costco in the female restroom, and nobody talked there.  It was there as quiet as it was in the men's room.  I also was once at TJ Max, and there was also no interpersonal conversation going on.

Dee - It's not that big a deal. Just passing chit chat, same as in the men's room.  Not long conversations - just a sentence or two in passing.  I promise it's not a girl's club in there. LOL

Okay. As someone who has never spoken to a stranger in the Men's room it sounds daunting.

The reason for that, and maybe it relates to the current "TERF" discussion, is that if I can go in and out and not talk, in my current state I may actually pass. But if I need to talk, my confidence evaporates, as my voice draws attention to my transness. (Which is something I like to avoid.)

I find the whole restroom question tricky. I can see both sides. You shouldn't have to pass. But once there is the at least make an effort criteria it starts to get confusing where do you draw the line. I dunno know what to think on this one.

As someone quite anxious about what my first time will be like, thinking about these questions, doesn't help with the anxiety.

~Dee.

[KimOct]

I know I am weighing in a lot on this but I think it is a big deal.  It defines our ability to function in the world but it is also a big philosophical question but also a real world question.

Do we have the right to be out in the world?

Dee - If you never spoke just in passing in men's rooms I doubt you will in women's rooms either. 

If someone insists on being friendly just give them a couple of words and be on your way.

If you are feeling uncomfortable about your voice there are many resources for voice training.  I went to a therapist at a hospital that helped.  Do I sound perfect - not at all - but a little better.  There are also you tube videos - lots of them- and DVD videos.  There are plenty of sources for working on your voice.

But big picture - I promise you are worrying too much about this.  Until you get comfortable just hurry in and out - but at least quickly wash your hands. 

[warlockmaker]

Passing is not just the way you look its your total presentation. When you have lived as a female full time, for a long enough time, you will behave like a female and feel confident you are one. This confidence eminates and using the female facilities will be natural. If you still question yourself then you are not ready and using the female facilities is not the nice thing to do. We need to win friends not make enemies.

[dee82]

Passing is not just the way you look its your total presentation. When you have lived as a female full time, for a long enough time, you will behave like a female and feel confident you are one. This confidence eminates and using the female facilities will be natural. If you still question yourself then you are not ready and using the female facilities is not the nice thing to do. We need to win friends not make enemies.

As someone who is publicly presenting as a woman around 90% of the time, (but have only been doing so for 2 weeks) I feel like I am at the point of no longer being able to go into the men's. It is simply is not appropriate, and I no longer feel safe doing so.

But the women's restroom scares me too. I like to think I can pass, (at the very least it is clear I am trying to look like the woman I am) but there are days when the ugly 5 o'clock shadow makes an appearance or something else affects my confidence.

To date, I have 2 strategies to cope with this.

a. Be careful with my drinking, and not need to go until I am home.

b. Seek out a disabled/unisex toilet.

Thinking I need to be considerate of others feelings I totally get, but it is also a huge burden and responsibility to worry about what other people think, when I just want to do what I need to do.

Seeking out a disabled/unisex toilet makes me sad as I furtively try to find a restroom I can feel comfortable using.

Going into the disabled toilet, I also think I am drawing attention to myself.

The thought that somehow my internal confidence is a measure of whether I am ready to use the Ladies, and until then, I don't fit anywhere doesn't seem right.

I understand where you are coming from warlockmaker, but you seem to be saying that unless I know there will be a disabled/unisex toilet, then until I have "lived as a female full time, for a long enough time" dressing androgenously and using the men's is what I need to do.

That just makes me want to cry.

I feel like I am just venting right now and there is no point being made. Other than being trans sucks.

~Dee

[Arianna Valentine]

OK I will stand slightly corrected.   I spent the last 20 minutes researching this and I found 3 incidents.
1. The link that was provided was one case.
2. I found one that was posted on Breitbart (consider the source ) in 2016 in Utah.  I couldn't find it anywhere else.
3.  Some sketchy site that was a Walmart bashing site about a customer that was apparently arrested multiple times in public for exposing himself.

I understand your clarification that it isn't about YOU believing it - it is about the public believing it. 

That is why we need to make our voices heard - not stay in hiding - be ambassadors of goodwill - and show society that 99.99% of us are good law abiding people.

I would be willing to bet that many more women have been molested in restrooms by cis appearing men than 1 or possibly 2 or 3 men wearing dresses. 

Far right propaganda promoting this as a legitimate fear against transgender rights is beyond ridiculous.

I completely agree with you we for one should not need to hide and for two we should not hide in the first place we need to show everybody that we are different that we are women even if we are trapped in the wrong body that doesn't mean we're like those few people that even you found on the internet that like to go to the restrooms and harass women we honestly go to the restroom to use the restroom and then we ain't we have no ulterior motives and we do need to stand up for our rights

If you can't accept yourself,  how can you expect others to accept you?

[Arianna Valentine]

I know I am weighing in a lot on this but I think it is a big deal.  It defines our ability to function in the world but it is also a big philosophical question but also a real world question.

Do we have the right to be out in the world?

Dee - If you never spoke just in passing in men's rooms I doubt you will in women's rooms either. 

If someone insists on being friendly just give them a couple of words and be on your way.

If you are feeling uncomfortable about your voice there are many resources for voice training.  I went to a therapist at a hospital that helped.  Do I sound perfect - not at all - but a little better.  There are also you tube videos - lots of them- and DVD videos.  There are plenty of sources for working on your voice.

But big picture - I promise you are worrying too much about this.  Until you get comfortable just hurry in and out - but at least quickly wash your hands. 

And if you don't quickly wash your hands at least carry a bottle of hand sanitizer on you little travel-size one will do nicely

If you can't accept yourself,  how can you expect others to accept you?

[KimOct]

Oh Dee - You are making me sad.  I wish you were sitting next to me in person so I could look you in the eye and tell you it really isn't that bad.  You are ruminating on this.

Believe me - NOBODY- and I mean NOBODY - was more scared than I was.

You take it a little at a time.  Unisex ( single person ) bathrooms are great when you can find them.  Always used them when I was first transitioning.  The problem is they are not everywhere.

Not drinking anything is very unhealthy.  I have read stories about other trans people doing that. Please don't.  I had kidney stones 3 times.  Not fun.

It will be hard for a little bit but so is transitioning.  The first few times just pull up your big girl panties and do it.
You are tougher than you think you are a TRANSWOMAN !!
Courage is being afraid to do something but doing it anyway.

Warlockmaker - I am sure if we were sitting over coffee we would find a middle ground between us and might possibly agree to disagree - the downside of the internet we all talk at each other without any nuance and being able to see someone's attitude.

That said - There has to be a learning curve to this.  It is not like you wake up one day and overnight - boom... you are a full fledged - full time transwoman.  People have to do this and for some of us it's harder than others.

I ask this with the best intentions - would you describe how and when you started using the women's restroom during your transition?

Mine was like Dee - I looked for unisex / family restrooms - then I used one at the Univ of MN where it was acceptable because of the transgender clinic - then I used one when traveling at San Francisco airport when traveling and had to.

I had just started hormones and had my letter for my doctor in my purse.  But I was still entirely legally male - name, drivers license everything.  But I was obviously presenting as female.  Was it hard?  Sure but if you are going to live this life you have to suck it up and do it.  Then it starts getting easier.

Is your position that someone has to be full time and use the women's restroom for the first time once they never live another day again as male?   

[warlockmaker]

I used to be the apex alpha male and I when I accepted my being TG, I imagined how I would use legal and agressive actions if there was any discrimination towards me.  For me,  I never used a female facility until I had my GRS, that was what made me feel I had the right and that I was a female, I believe others will have other triggers that gives them total confidence. Today, with an active foundation to help TGs in Asia and being blessed to be accepted by the cis female  and listening to their views,  I now feel very differentl. Its more important to win their hearts and the simple act of consideration and respect gives us the chance to develop a new perspective of TGs.

[KimOct]

It's late and I am going to sleep soon but I want to address this to those that read and don't post.  That is why I am on this site.  Other people helped me figure things out when I was starting to transition so I want to say this to those of you that are scared about this and are not sure what to do.

It is extremely rare that anyone is going to give you a hard time using the women's restroom if you are at least attempting to legitimately present as a woman.  I am 6'2" and built like a dude - I am not pretty.  My picture on here is one of my better pictures. 

Nobody has ever challenged me using a women's restroom.  I used to carry whatever I had with me as a security blanket - first the letter from my therapist - then my new drivers license - eventually my revised birth certificate.  But I was using the women's restroom before I had all of that stuff.

Just go in - behave - don't draw attention to yourself and people will leave you alone.  I am 999 out of 1000 sure of this.  And if you are the unlucky 1 in 1000 then you will have a story to tell.   

It will be OK I promise.
Like I said courage is being afraid and doing it anyway.