Sexual orientation?

[GingerVicki]

I did not change at all (and I am working already 15 years or so on becoming a woman).  I still find women to be attractive, and I still cannot see anything interesting in men (unless we are talking bout cars, tractors and the like!  But I am still not interested in their bodies!)

Mine changed some. I am definitely more open to the idea, but haven't made that leap and don't know if I will.

[JanePlain]

I'm fighting really hard to keep my marriage right now but it's not looking good. I think that if we do end up separating, this will probably be me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I hope you find a way to make it work.  Its just my 2 cents worth and I'm no expert but have you considered couples therapy?   Sometimes its nice to have a 3rd person who is trained to get people on the same page talking about ways to make a relationship work.  Anyway I wanted to chime in and wish you the best.

[transspoonie]

I dislike acronyms and just have a general difficulty with following all the variations of sexual norms anymore.  Quite a long time I was getting serious with someone who told me that before we got too intimate I needed to understand she was "poly" and I thought "Oh!  she likes Birds?"  Maybe I'm just getting old or vegged out.  As long as I don't have to deal with someone who wants to take Bird Hormones....

Maybe someone saying "straight" is just trying to explain something in a way they get that is not registering on their radar.  By that I mean there are people who have lived very conventional lives and have no experience with or even heard of things like transexual people.  And I have a friend who is M2F married to a man in what I would say could be seen as a very conventional even "straight" marriage. 

Well.... at least to me anyway.

Haha, I can definitely relate to that. There are some labels that I've always tilted my head at, as I can't fathom how they got their names. Whatever floats their boats, I suppose.

Also, you're right, and I should have explained my experiences better/in more detail. I don't mind the assumption when it comes from a place of ignorance, but with good intentions. I only mind when it's repetitive, dismissive, or mean-spirited, as if they're refusing to listen or telling me that I should be straight. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's extremely frustrating.

[Maria77]

I am bisexual or pansexual.   To me, genitals are only bits of tissue, so I don't feel a hang-up about them in general.   When I first transitioned, I went through a "man crazy" phase, but even then was also sleeping with women.   I've been with my husband for years now, but I am still sexually attracted to women and men-the personality and looks have a lot to do with it. 

[Ryuichi13]

*snip*

And before I go, I've also heard the "if you're FTM, that means you're straight, right?" comments from friends, family, and even total strangers. As if it boggles the mind that someone can be multiple parts of the acronym at once, or something. If I could, I'd direct them to my masculine-presenting, nonbinary spouse and ask "does this marriage look 'straight' to you?" 'Cause it sure doesn't look straight to me.

Alexander

I mentioned it before in this thread (I think) and I'll say it again. 

I was into men before I transitioned, and I'm still only attracted to men.  Women are pretty and sometimes even attractive, but just not sexually, at least to me.  Because my partner is AFAB (and not in the position to transition), he's the only female-bodied person I'm sexually attracted to.   

Its fascinating how many MTFs had their sexuality change when they transitioned, yet how many FTMs don't seem to have their sexuality change.  I wonder if there's a reason for that?

Ryuichi

[HappyMoni]

Its fascinating how many MTFs had their sexuality change when they transitioned, yet how many FTMs don't seem to have their sexuality change.  I wonder if there's a reason for that?

Ryuichi

Ryuichi,
   Interesting idea! You have found it rare to find a F to M with changed orientation? If that is true, I wonder if there is an element of the differences in upbringing that could come into play. Generally, for F to M, expressions of masculinity are much more acceptable (within certain limits) than for M to F's feminine expression. Growing up male bodied, with feminine identity, any expression of femininity (back in my day) was slammed. Some can and some can't hide  their feminine identity growing up. For someone who could hide, like myself, there can become such a thirst for femininity,  almost like exiting the desert after a long time. There are many factors involved in transition, and I don't mean to boil it down to just one thing, but sometimes maybe the choice in partner changes after transition to be in line with that need to be the feminine partner. Certainly, I don't speak for everyone here. Many probably don't know what the heck I'm talking about. That is not their experience, which is cool. I do think that one factor in people who change orientation is a need to switch up the control thing. We had to hide, to control our desires to be women. We tried to conform and be strong 'men' in control. Well, after transition, it can be compelling, almost intoxicating to give up that control to a more masculine figure. Going through GCS was also a factor in that my body is more suited (in my opinion) to being with that more masculine partner.
   As stated above, I know this is not true for many of you. I would be curious if any other 'changers' understand what I am talking about here. As for the F to M aspect, Ryuichi, help me out here. I haven't a clue. lol
Moni

[Anne Blake]

Moni, you bring up a great point and one that I do not know much about. We define our gender and our orientation but that leaves an emptiness in describing position in respect to power. While talking with a friend last month she (a lesbian woman of color) used the word "soft stud", implying tom boyish appearance but not necessarily a dominant or top. Looking through various lexicons in gay vernacular my eyes were opened to all kinds of relational power descriptors that told me a lot of myself that I didn't have a clue about and I have rarely heard mentioned here on Susan's. It is almost as if we need to throw in a third dimension in characteristics; gender, orientation and power or position preference......and each may be variable? Too confusing for me. But we can talk about it when we get up your way to visit next month.

Anne

[HappyMoni]

Moni, you bring up a great point and one that I do not know much about. We define our gender and our orientation but that leaves an emptiness in describing position in respect to power. While talking with a friend last month she (a lesbian woman of color) used the word "soft stud", implying tom boyish appearance but not necessarily a dominant or top. Looking through various lexicons in gay vernacular my eyes were opened to all kinds of relational power descriptors that told me a lot of myself that I didn't have a clue about and I have rarely heard mentioned here on Susan's. It is almost as if we need to throw in a third dimension in characteristics; gender, orientation and power or position preference......and each may be variable? Too confusing for me. But we can talk about it when we get up your way to visit next month.

Anne

Oh Anne, now you stepped in it! lol I know there is a danger any time generalizations are made so I will try to avoid that, but if you are happy with your power level compared to a partner, maybe you are less likely to change orientation. If you were forced to be keeping a facade of being the strong one, perhaps then a change is more likely. I think this was somewhat true for me. I do like your point, Anne. It gets even more complicated if you take it a step further. You could have variables like you stated, gender, orientation, power level comfort and maybe culture as well. I'm just wondering here, but I have been in a 'straight' culture all my life. Would I feel any differently if I was immersed in a gay or lesbian culture? Don't know! I really think that having my mind/body right after all these years is a powerful thing and has consequences that I could not have predicted. I want to understand why things changed for me. I honestly don't think my early desires were lies or caused by suppressing anything. Yeah, it is pretty complicated.

Anne, I saw your lounging in bathing suit pictures from Florida. I dare you to do that here. It's a high of about 20 degrees and down in single digits tonight. Did I mention the snow? I'll do it if you do! 

[Ryuichi13]

Moni, honestly, even when I was pretending to be female, I usually took the top role.  If not physically, I was the one that usually said what was going to happen and when.  I hear that it's called "topping from the bottom."

Now the interesting this is that my FTM partner and I are both "top/dominant/insert your favorite term here," and we sometimes have to discuss who's in charge before any kind of intimacy!  But lately, we've let it go and whatever happens, happens.

Ryuichi

[Linde]

Moni, honestly, even when I was pretending to be female, I usually took the top role.  If not physically, I was the one that usually said what was going to happen and when.  I hear that it's called "topping from the bottom."

Now the interesting this is that my FTM partner and I are both "top/dominant/insert your favorite term here," and we sometimes have to discuss who's in charge before any kind of intimacy!  But lately, we've let it go and whatever happens, happens.

Ryuichi

Topping from the bottom is a really good expression!  That allows me to characterize myself as bottoming from the top!  My wife always had to initiate every intimate encounter (and constantly complained about it).
I have not changed at all, I still feel more comfortable as bottom!  But I also have not changed my sexual orientation!

[skipulus]

Moni, honestly, even when I was pretending to be female, I usually took the top role.  If not physically, I was the one that usually said what was going to happen and when.  I hear that it's called "topping from the bottom."

Now the interesting this is that my FTM partner and I are both "top/dominant/insert your favorite term here," and we sometimes have to discuss who's in charge before any kind of intimacy!  But lately, we've let it go and whatever happens, happens.

Ryuichi

I share many of what you mention Ryuichi.
I have always only been attracted to men, masculinity that is.
It is not changing now, if anything it is growing stronger.

I have also been very dominant and hef no intention to change that.

I also have experienced a strong expectation that I was lesbian and that my transition is proof of this.
I find that people struggle with the concept that I'm in fact gay.

Moni I agree with some of your points around women having greater freedom to express masculinity.
Still this is not to the extent of tooping or dominating.
It is really rare that women challange the power dynamic and tgat contributes to tge mens not having spece to step down. Most women prefer dominant men. Tgey gripe about theyr decisions but thats all.
I have pushed against this for some four decades and it is very bard and tiresom. Both men and women work very hard at keeping this power dynamic up.

Now that I casually and consistently pass as a male in shoppes and such I feel liberated. It iz as if I have been wading through thick mud all my life and now I can finally breath and walk upright.

It is unlike anything I ever managed in the female disguise.
So no I certainly have no longing to change over to a less dominant position.
I feel as you but in the opposite direction that I can finally start to be a dominant male.
I'm still only attracted to men and I simply look to be the strong silent(or not so silent), in a gay relationship like I have been to my male partner for over two decades.

[Beverly Anne]

I would be curious if any other 'changers' understand what I am talking about here.

I was never comfortable with the dominant role. It felt unnatural and was one of the things I hated about sex. It felt like a chore. I had to be something I wasn't. That's just in the bedroom. In the world, I'm confident, assertive and never hesitate to take the lead. I've always been bisexual, but post-transition my attraction to men has increased to the point that my future partner preference is clearly male. A clarity I didn't have before, thus the plans for surgery to support that preference. 

[Linde]

I was never comfortable with the dominant role. It felt unnatural and was one of the things I hated about sex. It felt like a chore. I had to be something I wasn't. That's just in the bedroom. In the world, I'm confident, assertive and never hesitate to take the lead.

This could describe me to perfection!

I've always been bisexual, but post-transition my attraction to men has increased to the point that my future partner preference is clearly male. A clarity I didn't have before, thus the plans for surgery to support that preference.

And here we differ.  I have never been bisexual, and never did consider men to be anything else but buddies.  Now the buddy part is slowly disappearing, but I am still only interested in women.  The bisexual aspect might be the key for me being a lesbian, and you seeing men as sexual partners.

[Tessa James]

Questions of Sexual Orientation may be simplistic and reductionist concepts for some and, apparently, a lingering threat to others.  Might some of us actually fear that a mutable and changeable orientation is possible? 

Some people apparently need to proclaim frequently about their reactionary feelings and remind me of that old locker room talk.  Perhaps some of us have been part of those discussions where people seem to need to brandish being straight?  Groups of guys, too typically BSing about their sex scores and how much they are into women and ridiculing gay people.  Some of the loudest in those groups may also be the guys who quietly hit on me as a femme gay man years ago. 

Kinsey and company informed us many years ago of their research that indicated 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience.  that was in the early 1950s in the USA.  Today any very active gay man can assure us that there are plenty of "straight" men who wana get busy with them.  We also know strictly "lesbian" women who have been married with a man and have children with them and lived that way for decades.  All fine and good as folks determine their affinity group and labels for themselves.

But please don't let fear rule the day folks!  Please don't fall for it.  Our possible terms of endearment, orientation and yes, gender are as varied as the people who roam this planet.  Attraction, romance, intimacy and sexuality are immeasurably pleasurable and who floats your boat may be around any corner if we give each other the time to actually get better acquainted.

Forget about the labels, our orientation might be a place of certainty or a wonderful journey of personal discovery where loving someone is about sharing and growth. 

[HappyMoni]

Tessa, I really love what you said above. For me this topic is about me trying to figure myself out and to not hurt anyone in the journey of being different than what I was. I don't fear being attracted to any gender in itself. My fear is the ramifications of being attracted to someone. I have been thinking that a statement such as yours would be helpful. Thank you!

[Ryuichi13]

Questions of Sexual Orientation may be simplistic and reductionist concepts for some and, apparently, a lingering threat to others.  Might some of us actually fear that a mutable and changeable orientation is possible? 

Some people apparently need to proclaim frequently about their reactionary feelings and remind me of that old locker room talk.  Perhaps some of us have been part of those discussions where people seem to need to brandish being straight?  Groups of guys, too typically BSing about their sex scores and how much they are into women and ridiculing gay people.  Some of the loudest in those groups may also be the guys who quietly hit on me as a femme gay man years ago. 

Kinsey and company informed us many years ago of their research that indicated 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience.  that was in the early 1950s in the USA.  Today any very active gay man can assure us that there are plenty of "straight" men who wana get busy with them.  We also know strictly "lesbian" women who have been married with a man and have children with them and lived that way for decades.  All fine and good as folks determine their affinity group and labels for themselves.

But please don't let fear rule the day folks!  Please don't fall for it.  Our possible terms of endearment, orientation and yes, gender are as varied as the people who roam this planet.  Attraction, romance, intimacy and sexuality are immeasurably pleasurable and who floats your boat may be around any corner if we give each other the time to actually get better aquatinted.

Forget about the labels, our orientation might be a place of certainty or a wonderful journey of personal discovery where loving someone is about sharing and growth. 

I personally don't feel that my sexual orientation is threatened in any way.  However, I do love fascinating discussions, and I find this to be one.   

I've already gone through my experimental phase (I think!), and it was lots of fun, but for now, I seem to have settled down into a plain, old, boring monogamous gay relationship, one I'm very happy in.  Fear (other than of sexually transmitted diseases, practice safe sex, everyone!), never had a place in my bedroom.  All of my experimentation, all of my partners and all of my sexual exploits were ones I thoroughly enjoyed at the time, and ones I look back on fondly. 

There's nothing wrong with being poly/pan/demi/bi/straight/gay/lesbian/ace/aro/etc.  Whatever someone is, more power to them, I hope they're happy, as we all deserve to be. 

But this is a discussion about sexual orientation, and even though I've already spoken twice about mine, I'm still finding myself wanting to jump into the conversation every now and then.  (Safe discussions and) fun is fun!

Ryuichi

[skipulus]

Questions of Sexual Orientation may be simplistic and reductionist concepts for some and, apparently, a lingering threat to others.  Might some of us actually fear that a mutable and changeable orientation is possible? 

Some people apparently need to proclaim frequently about their reactionary feelings and remind me of that old locker room talk.  Perhaps some of us have been part of those discussions where people seem to need to brandish being straight?  Groups of guys, too typically BSing about their sex scores and how much they are into women and ridiculing gay people.  Some of the loudest in those groups may also be the guys who quietly hit on me as a femme gay man years ago. 

Kinsey and company informed us many years ago of their research that indicated 37% of men had at least one homosexual experience.  that was in the early 1950s in the USA.  Today any very active gay man can assure us that there are plenty of "straight" men who wana get busy with them.  We also know strictly "lesbian" women who have been married with a man and have children with them and lived that way for decades.  All fine and good as folks determine their affinity group and labels for themselves.

But please don't let fear rule the day folks!  Please don't fall for it.  Our possible terms of endearment, orientation and yes, gender are as varied as the people who roam this planet.  Attraction, romance, intimacy and sexuality are immeasurably pleasurable and who floats your boat may be around any corner if we give each other the time to actually get better aquatinted.

Forget about the labels, our orientation might be a place of certainty or a wonderful journey of personal discovery where loving someone is about sharing and growth.

When your sexual orientation goes against what society expects, (even demands), it can be a considerable challenge to proclaim and stand your ground. I'm in my mid forties and an AFAB recently transitioned, I was always masculine.
That means that society expected that I was mainly attracted to women. I never have been.
I held my ground, now that I have transitioned the expectation has progressed into a demand. The stereotype is apparently that trans men are lesbian women that want to fit into society better and if I don't agree with that then I just haven't opened up to it. Then I'm just repressed and fearful etc.

It would be much easier to go with the flow ... it would be less hassle, less confrontation, less critic to just try it ...  just be what others, strangers, feel is the accepted norm. I wouldn't need to confront or boldly claim or defend my orientation if I opened up and allowed it to shift.
I mean surely it would! Like if I would just open up to my femininity, get to grips with make up and skirts and be lady like, I wouldn't need to do all this transition stuff!

It is hard to go against the norm, to reject what society thinks should be, to stand your ground, to boldly and proudly walk out as yourself. People want to change you, to make you into something that fits into what they feel is normal.

I have chosen to not let fear govern my life or my sexual orientation. I have chosen, with fearless pride to admit my sexual attraction to males and masculinity. That takes strength when there are even some who will say that me being binary and attracted only to males is offensive to those who are not. Think about it..., me being myself is considered by some to be offensive to others. Is is really so bad to know your sexual orientation? Is that evidence of not having opened up?

Identifying understanding and knowing your sexual orientation is the act of accepting yourself as you are and not letting society, strangers, dictate how you should be.

[Tessa James]

Tessa, I really love what you said above. For me this topic is about me trying to figure myself out and to not hurt anyone in the journey of being different than what I was. I don't fear being attracted to any gender in itself. My fear is the ramifications of being attracted to someone. I have been thinking that a statement such as yours would be helpful. Thank you!

Hey Moni,  Thanks for your supportive post.  We have both been around this block a few times and can readily recall folks here who have come and gone while clearly changing their thoughts about their own sexual orientation.  I believe this is part of liberating ourselves from gender and orientation straightjackets imposed by a dominant culture.

My response was triggered in part by comments about nausea and vomiting when considering gay sexuality.  As a support site that sort of proclamation feels unhelpful and unwelcoming to the many men who are here and the huge group of us who are functionally, if not publicly, bi/pan/queer..different!

Yes, I feel lucky to have had lifetime of being and acting queer and am very comfortable about this being my normal.  Men and women loving each other with public displays of affection is actually quite rare and, for me, a beautiful and profoundly brave act.

Judging from the gigantic interest in queer porn and the actual research that indicates bell curves for sexual orientation we might agree that folks have lots of interests they do not publicly acknowledge or act on due to fear.  The consequences can be life threatening after all!  If we are transgender AND LGBQIA+++ we can be dealing with powerful social forces that want us gone or at least back in some dark closet.  NO WAY!

Transition may expose us to worlds of thought and realities we may have yet to experience.  I encourage myself and others to let the light shine in and welcome the ideas and realities of diverse people all around us.  It is about love, right?

[Tessa James]

I personally don't feel that my sexual orientation is threatened in any way.  However, I do love fascinating discussions, and I find this to be one.   

I've already gone through my experimental phase (I think!), and it was lots of fun, but for now, I seem to have settled down into a plain, old, boring monogamous gay relationship, one I'm very happy in.  Fear (other than of sexually transmitted diseases, practice safe sex, everyone!), never had a place in my bedroom.  All of my experimentation, all of my partners and all of my sexual exploits were ones I thoroughly enjoyed at the time, and ones I look back on fondly. 

There's nothing wrong with being poly/pan/demi/bi/straight/gay/lesbian/ace/aro/etc.  Whatever someone is, more power to them, I hope they're happy, as we all deserve to be. 

But this is a discussion about sexual orientation, and even though I've already spoken twice about mine, I'm still finding myself wanting to jump into the conversation every now and then.  (Safe discussions and) fun is fun!

Ryuichi

Thank you Ryuichi,

LOL, yes we hopefully feel welcome to discuss and consider without threat here.  I love all people and that certainly includes men.  How we feel about our orientation may, however, be far far different than our public statements.  How many straight men can acknowledge another man being cute, hot, sexy or attractive?  It seems more women are able to acknowledge those adjectives about each other and suggests to me that we as a culture are way too busy censoring our public utterances. 

Part of this is the dominant cultural concepts of sexuality as dirty, sinful, wrong, pervy or scary.  Sex negative cultures deny themselves and others some of the most wonderful pleasures and connections people can make.  Yes sir, lets have fun!

[Linde]

Thank you for saying that, Tessa. You don't expect homophobia or misogyny to be expressed or tolerated on a site like this. Dealing with transphobia on the outside is bad enough. We should bring these kinds of posts to the attention of moderators.

I think I was he one who made this comment!  How dare you to call my dislike about the sexual organs of other males to be based on homophobia?  Just because you like those, does not mean I am homophobic if I don't like them.  I am pretty solidified in my sexual preferences (the little bit that is left), and don't praise something that I really despise to be nice and need just because you will call me to be homophobic if I don't!

I say it once more, the thought for me to have to be intimate with a male, causes physical discomfort for me!
I do not speak for others, just for my self!  If you want to be the forums police, deciding who can and cannot voice once sexual preference or dislike, in a subject titled "Sexua Orientation", I think you are the one who is homophobic!