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Estrodiol and Bicalutamide

Started by Joanna Jones CD, January 05, 2019, 02:08:16 PM

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Joanna Jones CD

I just started 2 months ago on HRT.  I take Estrodiol and Bicalutamide.  Unfortunately, I live in a small community where my doctor has no transgender experience.  For the girls that have been on bica, what were your experience on the blood tests regarding testosterone levels?  My first testosterone test will be next week.  I have an ongoing dispute with him as to the level of testosterone when taking bica.  I told him my level will actually be higher than normal, as it is a blocker, and will not lower the production of testosterone .  I told him a T-test is really not needed, but he wants to prove his point of view.  He thinks my T-level will be in the low range closer to 50 ng/dL.  My guess since bica will increase my T-levels, I will be higher than normal.  Of course I could be one of those people who get lucky and see T levels go down because of Estrodiol.  If that is true, then taking bica was not needed.  It is always possible that the combination of adding bica to the mix could lower my T level too.  The mechanisms results are different for each girl.  The only real test if you a taking the proper dosage of Bicalutamide, is whether or not your morning erections have been eliminated.  After 6 weeks, mine did.  So I told him my dosage if just right.  It is blocking Testosterone  from being used, comparable to someone that has taken some other type of pills to reduce the production levels down to 50 or so.  A month ago, when I had what I thought was going to be a complete workup, he only did total estrogen.  Boy was I disappointed.  I should have made sure my doctor was going to get the first tests done correctly.  When you are starting bica, it is imperative you have a liver test after 30 days.  These pills have the potential to destroy your liver if you don't keep track.  After just a few weeks, if your liver does not take to the bica very well at all, your test numbers can head south really fast.  Once you make sure your liver functions are going to be ok, after the 3rd month, just monitoring every 6 months should do the trick.  Although the odds are extremely very low with any kind of liver problems from taking this pill, (less than 1% I think)  it is wise to make sure first, before you go blindly month after month.

My doctor and I also have a disagreement about monitoring the Estrogen to see if I need more or less Estrodiol.  Out of frustrations with me, he as agreed my tests next week will also include E-2 and E-1, not the total Estrogen (which is mainly E-1, E-2 and E-3).  He was concern that my total last month for Total Estrogen of 765 was way too high.  My thumbnail calculation based on the time of the day I took my Estrodiol pill vs the test, I probably had a 180 E-2 with the bulk of the remainder at E-1.  I did for the first two weeks of starting HRT take my Estrodiol pill sublingually.  Since he has never treated anyone like me, I tried to explain that when taking Estrodiol, you must take a E-1 AND a E-2 to get a useful number.  If your doctor only gives you a E-2, (Estrodiol) test, that number could be very deceiving too.  If your E-1 (Estrone) happens to be a lot higher than E-2, the effectiveness of Estrodiol is so much lower.  That is why there are so many girls that go on for a long time and see no expected results if they are near 200 Estrodiol.  In reality because of high Estrone numbers, feminization is not working as strongly as anticipated.  I now take my Estrodoil buccal to try and cut down the Estrone.  If my results next week are closer to where I think is ok, I will keep on taking my Estrodiol pills buccal. My goal would have a 200-300 Estrodiol level, with no more than 400-500 Estrone.  (Very best is to have the same E-1 and E-2 number).  I have no desire at all to take the injections to cut down on the Estrone problem, (hate the needles!) so I hope I can get the numbers in line.  If not, I will have to figure out something different.  I cannot take spironolactone.  Extra potassium in my body would build up with the spiro and it would cause me to have temporary paralysis issues.
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Kirsteneklund7

Quote from: Joanna Jones CD on January 05, 2019, 02:08:16 PM
I just started 2 months ago on HRT.  I take Estrodiol and Bicalutamide.  Unfortunately, I live in a small community where my doctor has no transgender experience.  For the girls that have been on bica, what were your experience on the blood tests regarding testosterone levels?  My first testosterone test will be next week.  I have an ongoing dispute with him as to the level of testosterone when taking bica.  I told him my level will actually be higher than normal, as it is a blocker, and will not lower the production of testosterone .  I told him a T-test is really not needed, but he wants to prove his point of view.  He thinks my T-level will be in the low range closer to 50 ng/dL.  My guess since bica will increase my T-levels by upwards of 50%, I will be higher than normal perhaps 550-610 ng/dL.  The only real test if you are taking the proper dosage of Bicalutamide, is  whether or not your morning erections have been eliminated.  After 6 weeks, mine did.  So I told him my dosage if just right.  It is blocking Testosterone  from being used, comparable to someone that has taken some other type of pills to reduce the production levels down to 50 or so.  A month ago, when I had what I thought was going to be a complete workup, he only did total estrogen.  Boy was I disappointed.  I should have made sure my doctor was going to get the first tests done correctly.  When you are starting bica, it is imperative you have a liver test after 30 days.  These pills have the potential to destroy your liver if you don't keep track.  After just a few weeks, if your liver does not take to the bica very well at all, your test numbers can head south really fast.  Once you make sure your liver functions are going to be ok, after the 3rd month, just monitoring every 6 months should do the trick.  Although the odds are extremely very low with any kind of liver problems from taking this pill, (less than 1% I think)  it is wise to make sure first, before you go blindly month after month.

My doctor and I also have a disagreement about monitoring the Estrogen to see if I need more or less Estrodiol.  Out of frustrations with me, he as agreed my tests next week will also include E-2 and E-1, not the total Estrogen (which is mainly E-1, E-2 and E-3).  He was concern that my total last month for Total Estrogen of 765 was way too high.  My thumbnail calculation based on the time of the day I took my Estrodiol pill vs the test, I probably had a 180 E-2 with the bulk of the remainder at E-1.  I did for the first two weeks of starting HRT take my Estrodiol pill sublingually.  Since he has never treated anyone like me, I tried to explain that when taking Estrodiol, you must take a E-1 AND a E-2 to get a useful number.  If your doctor only gives you a E-2, (Estrodiol) test, that number could be very deceiving too.  If your E-1 (Estrone) happens to be a lot higher than E-2, the effectiveness of Estrodiol is so much lower.  That is why there are so many girls that go on for a long time and see no expected results if they are near 200 Estrodiol.  In reality because of high Estrone numbers, feminization is not working as strongly as anticipated.  I now take my Estrodoil buccal to try and cut down the Estrone.  If my results next week are closer to where I think is ok, I will keep on taking my Estrodiol pills buccal. My goal would have a 200-300 Estrodiol level, with no more than 400-500 Estrone.  (Very best is to have the same E-1 and E-2 number).  I have no desire at all to take the injections to cut down on the Estrone problem, (hate the needles!) so I hope I can get the numbers in line.  If not, I will have to figure out something different.  I cannot take spironolactone.  Extra potassium in my body would build up with the spiro and it would cause me to have temporary paralysis issues.
I was told by my prescribing doctor that estradiol patches or gel results in the lowest estrone & lowest risk DVT
Also most of the world can access cyproterone- it is low risk as well - can you get a script?
Kind regards, Kirsten


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As a child prayed to be a girl- now the prayer is being answered - 40 years later !
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Jessica

Hi Joanna 🙋‍♀️ Welcome to Susan's Place!  I'm Jessica.
I myself was prescribed Spironolactone before starting Estradiol patches. So I don't have firsthand account of bicalutamide to give you. 

I see you're new here, so I'll post some links that may help you get better acquainted with the site. Pay attention to the site rules they can be of great help and don't forget the link highlighted red.  It has answers to questions that are commonly asked.  Then join in on a topic you find interesting and learn and share.

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions Forum to tell the members about yourself!

Things that you should read



"If you go out looking for friends, you are going to find they are very scarce.  If you go out to be a friend, you'll find them everywhere."


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Northern Star Girl

@Joanna Jones CD 
Dear Joanna:
    I am happy to see that you had signed up as a member of Susan's Place yesterday and that you have now posted in the Forums. 

    As you post here you will be able to exchange thoughts and comments with others that are experiencing many of the same things that you mentioned in your post.

    This is the right place for you to be to find out what others may have to say that may have been in your circumstances and with your questions and concerns.

    I see that our lovely member and California Girl  @Jessica  has already Officially Welcomed you... and PLEASE follow the LINK to come to the Introductions Forum that she provided for you.   Then after that with your introduction post more members will be aware of your arrival.
Please allow me to also warmly WELCOME you to Susan's Place
You will find this a safe and friendly place to share with others and to read about others similar trials, tribulations, and successes.

    As you are certainly aware you can share with others and involve yourself with some give and take with other like-minded members.  When frustrated or if you have successes you can share it here if you wish and receive support from others and offer support to others. ....
     ***There is a very good chance that you might find that you will make some new like-minded friends here. 

    Please come in and continue to be involved at your own pace.
   
    There is information and important LINKS that  Jessica included below her Welcome Message to you yesterday.   You will find information about the site that will help you navigate around and best utilize the features here.   
Please look closely at the LINKS in RED, answers are there to many questions that new members ask.

Again, Welcome to Susan's Place.
Danielle
****Help support this website by:
Subscribing !     and/or by    Donating !

❤️❤️❤️  Check out my Personal Blog Threads below
to read more details about me and my life.
  ❤️❤️❤️
             (Click Links below):  [Oldest first]
  Aspiringperson is now Alaskan Danielle    
           I am the Hunted Prey : Danielle's Chronicles    
                  A New Chapter: Alaskan Danielle's Chronicles    
                             Danielle's Continuing Life Adventures
I started HRT March 2015 and
I've been Full-Time since December 2016.
I love living in a small town in Alaska
I am 45 years old and Single

        Email:  --->  alaskandanielle@
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Joanna Jones CD

Quote from: Kirsteneklund7 on January 05, 2019, 02:31:04 PM
I was told by my prescribing doctor that estradiol patches or gel results in the lowest estrone & lowest risk DVT
Also most of the world can access cyproterone- it is low risk as well - can you get a script?
Kind regards, Kirsten


Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Kirsten, if my Estrone level turns out to be to high, the patches would be my next option.  Here in USA, Cyproterone is not legal and available yet.

Thanks  Joanna
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Kirsteneklund7

Quote from: Joanna Jones CD on January 05, 2019, 05:17:26 PM
Kirsten, if my Estrone level turns out to be to high, the patches would be my next option.  Here in USA, Cyproterone is not legal and available yet.

Thanks  Joanna
Joanna,
I would love to hear what you discover. Regimens interest me from a health perspective.

Wishing you safe & effective HRT.

Kirsten.

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As a child prayed to be a girl- now the prayer is being answered - 40 years later !
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pamelatransuk

Hello Joanna and Welcome to Susans

I regret I cannot help you concerning Bicalutamide as I am on Finasteride tablets and Decapetyl/Triptorelin injection aswell as Estradiol patches.

I note that you are interested in Blood Test results and several Members have given me their E&T readings after 3/4, 6/7 and 9/10 months and I have completed tables in my "Comparison" thread here on HRT Board and which I copied for you below. In most (possibly all) cases the E reading refers to E2.

Please keep us informed of your discovery and subsequent progress as so many us including me have so much learn concerning HRT regimens. Thanking you

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242549.0.html

Hugs

Pamela





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Chloe

Quote from: Joanna Jones CD on January 05, 2019, 02:08:16 PMMy goal would have a 200-300 Estrodiol level, with no more than 400-500 Estrone.  (Very best is to have the same E-1 and E-2 number). 

Joanna I was a longtime Estrodiol and Bicalutamide user and am highly curious how your testing results pan out. My understanding is excess free T will eventually level out/adjust itself via more natural  "E" production but I have since stopped and, being older, now take "E" only. Was very happy with past results overall . . .

Plz feel free to PM if desired  ;)
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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Joanna Jones CD

Quote from: pamelatransuk on January 06, 2019, 06:25:42 AM


https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,242549.0.html

Hugs

Pamela

Thanks Pamela for your link.  It is very interesting.  The overall data gives us a definitive direction of the numbers when looking at the averages of all of the girls combined over time.

When taking Estrodiol orally and someone wants to have a clearer picture of their own data sets, from my research it does make a big difference when these tests are done in relation to the last dosage.  I am hoping my own E numbers mimic the predictability charts.  I am going to always have my tests done 3.5 hours after taking my dosage of E.  That should then give me a 200 ng/dL.   (Plus an unknown slight increase of E from the effects of bica added to the 200.) From what I understand, bica will also raise your E levels somewhat just by itself.  The reason why I want my number to be around 200, is to make sure my doctor is happy with my goal.  If I did the test after two hours, my E number would be around 400, and he would insist that I take less.  If I waited to take the test 12 hours after my last dosage, he would probably start giving me to much of a dosage.

The larger difference of numbers between each girl I think is because of the time of last dosage.  For instance, if you were to take 2 mg Estrodiol sublingual, 1 hour later you should have a E test reading around 800.  If a test done 8 hours later in the day after last dosage, you could only expect 90-100 or so, 12 hours it could be 70 or lower.  T levels too are determined at time of day.  If you take the blood test early in the day vs in the afternoon, it would make a big difference since the production of T is at its highest first thing in the morning.

I think the key in a good data set, is just make sure your testing is done at the same time during the day for all tests.  Therefore comparing the results from each blood test is more accurate in trying to achieving the direction of the numbers, as oppose the numbers themselves.
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Joanna Jones CD

#9
Quote from: Chloe on January 06, 2019, 07:44:18 AM
Joanna I was a longtime Estrodiol and Bicalutamide user and am highly curious how your testing results pan out. My understanding is excess free T will eventually level out/adjust itself via more natural  "E" production but I have since stopped and, being older, now take "E" only. Was very happy with past results overall . . .

Plz feel free to PM if desired  ;)

My T test is tomorrow.  My doctor is probably just going for total testosterone.  With 3 different T tests that include free-testosterone, I am not there yet in understanding this information and trying to fight the doctor in making sure it is not just the total T level.  Since proper bicalutamide dosage levels can not be gauged by T level test results from what I understand, I still need to learn all the differences of the different T tests for the future.

I insisted this time for him to get the E-1 and E-2 numbers instead of just the total Estrogen number, that to me is wasted data.  With my understanding on E testing, I made a strong case with my doctor to make sure I get the Estrodiol and Estrone numbers.  But it is an uphill struggle fighting him on T.  By him basically throwing up his hands at me and making the T test a "prove your point" moment, I sure hope I am right and not have egg on myself.  He thinks my T total will be much lower than normal. My research says it will stay closer to normal if not higher.  However, there is always a chance that Estrodiol on it's own will be a major factor in reducing T levels in my own case.  It does look like lots of the girls have very good results on E only.

Oh by the way, I am 66 years old and just starting on HRT 2 months ago.  My results will obviously vary because of my age.

Chloe, since you have taken bicalutamide for a long period, do you have from your own experience total T level number data?  Or did you just take tests for excess free T.
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pamelatransuk

Thank you Joanna for your informative comment which I have copied to my "Comparison" thread and I note the significant difference in readings within a few hours and I am sure that goes a long way to explain the differences between each girl's results and the same girl's previous and subsequent results.

Incidentally we are of similar age; you being 66 and I am 63.

Hugs

Pamela


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Joanna Jones CD

Quote from: Chloe on January 06, 2019, 07:44:18 AM
Joanna I was a longtime Estrodiol and Bicalutamide user and am highly curious how your testing results pan out. My understanding is excess free T will eventually level out/adjust itself via more natural  "E" production but I have since stopped and, being older, now take "E" only. Was very happy with past results overall . . .

Plz feel free to PM if desired  ;)

So I got back my tests results.  Like I had projected, my TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL was where I thought it would be.  419 ng/dL because of taking Bicalutamide.  An increase of 46-62%.  Since I am older, my base would have been around 370 perhaps.  The number should have been 550-610 if I was taking bica only, but I assume that the Estrodiol is bringing it down a bit.

This first test on my Estrodiol was done near the higher end of the chart.  My last dosage was just 3 hours before the test.  I had anticipated perhaps 300 or so, but it came in at 429.  Bicalutamide from what I had read, CAN increase your Estrodiol level on its own by 2-3 times.  My doctor did not do a baseline with Estrodiol, before I started on the pills.  So if I was lets say 39 with E at the begining, bica could have added 39-78 to that number.  I was expecting up to 300-320.  Add 78 from the effects of bica, that number now becomes 407.  Very close to my actual 429.  Next time I will have the test done after waiting 12 hours after my Estrodiol pill the bottom of the trough.    My ratio of 2.5 E1:1 E2, is just under the level of changing to injections.

Question.  The WPATH says <200 for Estradiol.  A doctor that I follow says 300 is better.  Are these numbers the mean average throughout the day, or are these ideal goal numbers the bottom of the trough?  Since I take Estrodiol by pill form, the numbers from high to low vary during the day.
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Joanna Jones CD

Quote from: Chloe on January 06, 2019, 07:44:18 AM
Joanna I was a longtime Estrodiol and Bicalutamide user and am highly curious how your testing results pan out. My understanding is excess free T will eventually level out/adjust itself via more natural  "E" production but I have since stopped and, being older, now take "E" only. Was very happy with past results overall . . .

Plz feel free to PM if desired  ;)

Chloe since I am a new poster, I can not PM yet. 

From what I understand, about the only real concern with Bicalutamide to me is liver damage.  But that can be tracked easily with tests.  My latest labs came back with no issues at the two month mark.  In fact, all of my liver numbers are lower than before I had started.  Bica does has risks, but it is to me rare at my level with HRT usage.  Something less than 1%.  So long as my lab numbers do not increase I should be just fine at a normal level of dosage.  If one of those lab numbers start to increase by a small number, I would just cut my dosage accordingly, and perhaps still have the same benefits from its usage.  I am very happy my doctor came across this medicine.  I can not take spironolactone.  I have a very rare condition called "hyperkalemic periodic paralysis".  Taking spiro would do a number on me with the effects of increased potassium levels.  So that said, bicalutamide was my only choice for now and it has worked as advertised.  After reading all of the info, I think one day bica may take over spiro as the leading pill to take in the USA for antiandrogen therapy.  If you don't take the precautions and not have the liver tests done properly, there are risks.  I would advise everyone who start bica to make sure your doctor does the liver tests after the first month.  I think it is then done every 3 months after that for the first year. 

The reasons why doctors are so afraid of bicalutamide is because the traditional usage is for prostate cancer and is a lot higher dosage than for HRT.  If you have cancer, the risks/rewards from liver damage is on a different scale.  When doctors hear about bica being used, it is always connected with the cancer treatment.  There is one doctor out there that has had not one issue with elevated liver numbers with hundreds of his MtF patients using bica.  If you do searches, you will find several other doctors that have switched all of their patients from spironolactone to bicalutamide.
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Melinda@heart

Joanna,

What kind of results did you see from Bica? My doctor and I discussed switching me over from Spiro to Bica. I'm curious as to its effects from a first hand account.

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Joanna Jones CD

Quote from: Melinda@heart on January 16, 2019, 01:10:39 PM
Joanna,

What kind of results did you see from Bica? My doctor and I discussed switching me over from Spiro to Bica. I'm curious as to its effects from a first hand account.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

With the half life at around 6-or so days, my effects were completed at the 7 week mark.  There are no testosterone lab test numbers to check as they are not applicable for this usage for dosage requirements.  The goal is to get the "effective" blocking rate of testosterone down below 50.  Since actually numbers of testosterone in lab tests will be higher than normal in the male range, that is why they are not used to determine proper dosage.  The only real "test" if you have the right dosage, is if your morning erections have stopped.  Once that has taken place, you have then have the proper dose.  I happen to start at the normal rate.  I could have cut it in half to begin with, but I was comfortable with my dosage.  Unless I see an increase of liver numbers, I will keep it at the same for years to come.  I am also very curious  regarding the reduction of the body hair too.  It seems bica outshines spiro in many ways.  Plus with less side effects too.
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Chloe

Quote from: Joanna Jones CD on January 16, 2019, 01:37:31 PMWith the half life at around 6-or so days . . . The only real "test" if you have the right dosage, is if your morning erections have stopped.

        This is true Casodex is very insoluble in body water found "every three days" worked for me am curious what doc recommended for you? A generic sub has also brought price down cost wise bica is now comparable, IMHO, to a less effective dose of spironolactone.

@Joanna Jones CD body hair will definitely become a thing of the past the only thing you'll have left is lighter pubic, head and beard go figure!
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
  •  

Joanna Jones CD

Quote from: Chloe on January 29, 2019, 02:26:29 AM
       what doc recommended for you? A generic sub has also brought price down cost wise bica is now comparable, IMHO, to a less effective dose of spironolactone.  go figure!

I can not take spironolactone.  My doctor who knows nothing about HRT patients thought bica might work.  After researching myself, I concluded that it was the best choice for me.  He then just went along with it.  I get the generic from online pharmacy.  I pay cash since my insurance co-payment costs more.  (go figure)  With 3 month supply it is only $9.60 per month.  My Estradiol pill form, I do the same online.  It costs $5.11 per month for my dosage.  Later when I eventually move to Las Vegas, both Estrodiol and Bicalutamide will be free with my insurance with my Medicare Advantage Plan in the Vegas region.
  •  

Chloe

Quote from: Joanna Jones CD on January 29, 2019, 02:03:57 PMLater when I eventually move to Las Vegas . . .

Why you 'lil devil I'm jealous!
Quote from: March 1, 2018
Nevada has become the latest state to announce Medicaid will cover sex reassignment surgery for transgender individuals.
Grandma lived in Lake Havasu City 'til she passed away spent alot of time out there love/miss the desert!
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
  •  

KayXo

Quote from: Joanna Jones CD on January 15, 2019, 03:44:16 PM
Question.  The WPATH says <200 for Estradiol.  A doctor that I follow says 300 is better.  Are these numbers the mean average throughout the day, or are these ideal goal numbers the bottom of the trough?  Since I take Estrodiol by pill form, the numbers from high to low vary during the day.

<200 is based on average premenopausal levels, averaging widely fluctuating levels in ciswomen every cycle. Whether this is ideal for either ciswomen or transwomen is not known, and no studies have shown higher levels to be harmful to either ciswomen or transwomen. There is where science stands at the moment. Everything else is assumptions and anecdotal.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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