Not trans enough to join the clique

[Sabrina Rei]

Elle.   It's a small group of about 25 so far. Mostly there are 4-5 show up. They are on their 6th meeting. The leader recommended I go to a therapist because I can't come to terms going full time. I am full time I just don't always display the garments that quash my dysphoria like bra and panties. Mostly I wear jeans and blouses when I go out. Maybe that's too dudiesh but it works for me. They all are from the Capital Hill area of Seattle where being yourself is pretty much accepted.

That's ridiculous, grotesquely insensitive and completely out of touch with the LGBTQIA of today. What a stunning lack of empathy and inclusiveness. I agree with the others, you don't want to be around people like that.

[Linde]

I've been through rough days and know to look where I am accepted. Maybe I'll find some people that have had some of the life expiriences that i've had and we can relate on that level. I am sure that they are out there somewhere.

Wishing everyone luck.

Yes, here!  because I like you!  And my therapist is the facilitator of our very accepting trans group!

[GingerVicki]

Let me play devils advocate here.

I do not necessarily agree with exclusion, but from one potential perspective, if you are not "full time" then how do you and they relate? Your experiences are completely different and you benefit from them, but hey do not benefit from you.

I have stopped going to a number of groups because I don't benefit from being there. 

Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?

Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.

If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.

I think you missed the point of my post.

I am not sure how I can miss the message of, "your not one of us."

I am not angry because of your post because you honestly do not know how I present myself. That is ok, but I do feel that you came to a conclusion without all of the facts and we all do sometimes. I am guilty of this myself.

Here is a bit about me. I live in a very hostile city and non-binary people have problems here. I've been openly confronted about being FtM. I was out with my ex-wife each time and she was accused of being MtF. I am accustomed to people hating me for what I am. I guess you could say that I was failing before I started.

I ask myself, how many people thought that my wife and I were a lesbian couple? Not that it matters, but still. Most of those people who judged me didn't even give me a chance. It is also the cause of the other discrimination I've faced. Some of which you listed above.

I fail to see how my MtF androgynous presentation, especially when people assume I am transgender to the point of open discrimination in public places, is any different than a non-passable trans female.

[Linde]

Let me play devils advocate here.



Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?

Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.

I don't now where you live, but I always had several women living along side m.  there was my sister, my wife, and her sisters.
Neither of them ever mentioned or complained that some person grabbed their rear end!  And no mechanic upsold to the, because hey always had some male to help them.  But the mechanic thing should not apply to trans women that much anyway, because most of them used to be guys, who not magically forgot to deal wit mechanics trying to upsell hem something.  Upselling does no only take place to women, some men are succers for it, too!  I have two male friends who are of that type.
I don't think one has a problem to relate because one is not a woman all the time.  I ws (biologically) a woman most of my life, and functioned most of the time wit female emotions, but I represented as a man!  Most of my friends were women, and I had no problem to relate to them or they to me.  In fact, some of them liked it that I could act like a man, because I could help ot in not so female situations!  I think it has more to do with wanting to be the exclusive club.  i wonder if they would accepted me, who presents 99% of the time female, and have en a female for a longer time than most of them.  But about 1% of my time I go as a male, because it is of advantage to me or my friends!

If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.

And that is the attitude I sense from this, the exclusive trans ladies coffee and tea club who you can only attend upon specific invitation!

[HappyMoni]

Dawn, I think they were right to exclude you! You are way too awesome, caring. beautiful, and...did I mention awesome, for those fools! Smile on lady!

[GingerVicki]

Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.

Isn't' that the problem? The thread is titled "Not trans enough to join the clique."

And that is the attitude I sense from this, the exclusive trans ladies coffee and tea club who you can only attend upon specific invitation!

Exactly the problem right.

[jill610]

Isn't' that the problem? The thread is titled "Not trans enough to join the clique."
Exactly the problem right.

I don't necessarily agree with the exclusion, but why is that a problem that causes them to get blasted on a forum like this?

If their goal is to support post transitioners, for example, who have very different issues and challenges than early transitioners or non, then why not?

I'm in a group for post divorce moms, it excludes men, non divorcees and those without kids. How is this different?

Point is, every group has a purpose. If it's purpose is more specific than a general "transgender support" group, then how is this a real issue.

It's not about being "trans enough", it's about "what value do you add and how do you support the mission of thus group".  Two quite different things.

I hope it's not lost on this minority group that a contrary opinion got jumped on by a half dozen people.

[Allison S]

I think it's rude to turn someone away based on assumptions. They should have presented details about what makes their group "specific"or "streamlined" and confirmed if you still would like to join... Knowing what you would be getting into at that point, it would be up to you to decide.

I speak from experience because as a "gay guy" I had many times I tried being more social and was rejected... One gay mens group I tried to join told me that I couldn't join because my photo has a cup of alcohol in it... Another time I can remember was in person when I approached a random group of guys and started talking to them. One of the people told me to go away, for no reason, and I did. Sometimes I wonder why that happened, but then again I can only assume and really the only thing I can think of is that person did me a favor.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

[HappyMoni]

Jill, I see your point. I was mainly going on the fact that Dawn was hurt by the thought that her experience was not valuable enough for the group. I think that is a big mistake on their part. They have the right to set the parameters of the group, yeah, but it doesn't mean that it is wise and that there will not be hurt feelings as a result. I used the term fools for them because they are missing out on someone I hold in high regard. Maybe it was harsh, but I love my Dawn. As for you, you have a point and I appreciate you making it. I hope you don't feel jumped on by me at least. I hope this whole topic stays friendly and we avoid hurting each other talking about it.

[Jaime320]

One of first things therapist and pcp explained to me was never question am I trans enough. We each follow our own winding path. I've learned those that exclude or question your transness typically have other issues. They aren't doing the community any favors. If the group is focused on a specific area and you don't fit the criteria so be it. However if it's general support, and they're being cliquey. You're far better off.

[AoifeB]

There's enough gatekeeping from cis people,  we don't need any of our own. Especially for people who didn't transition early, or bi/lesbian trans women, too many people hear "not really trans" for us to say it to each other.

[Michelle_P]

It is one thing if a group has a specific charter that they put out and refer to in adding members.  Many support groups sponsored by medical organizations do this, with support groups specific for MtF or FtM persons who are working through their transition, and different support groups for persons who have completed transition and any medical work that they had needed. Meetings of these two groups will be very different in tone and in issues discussed.  it is easy to see which one should join from reading their charter.

On the other hand, a group that just puts it out there as a Trans group on Meetup or whatever with no details as to who should or shouldn't join, and then 'judges' applicants without regard to a detailed charter or published set of criteria is just engaging in a bit of snobbery,  rather like old-fashioned college sororities or fraternities with 'pledges' and 'blackballing' votes.

[Jessica]

My first group session was for transgender women and for those that identified as NB or gender fluid.  At one point I felt as if there was conflict between each other because we all didn't think the same.  I was given the suggestion by some that I needed to this or that, but I was new and did not fully grasp what I needed.  The facilitator steered the conversation that did direct the group in a positive way, but it was clear how some felt.
I didn't return to that group, wasn't into trying to defend myself.
If I go to another group, it will be the one for transgender women who identify primarily as a woman. 

[Michelle_P]

My first group session was for transgender women and for those that identified as NB or gender fluid.  At one point I felt as if there was conflict between each other because we all didn't think the same.  I was given the suggestion by some that I needed to this or that, but I was new and did not fully grasp what I needed.  The facilitator steered the conversation that did direct the group in a positive way, but it was clear how some felt.
I didn't return to that group, wasn't into trying to defend myself.
If I go to another group, it will be the one for transgender women who identify primarily as a woman.

The folks running or facilitating a group can have a tremendous impact on how helpful, or harmful a group may be.  Particularly for folks who are early in coming out or the transition process, there may be an innate fragility present that needs to be guarded.  The support systems representatives, those who facilitate or moderate the discussions, need to be aware of this and take some care in their actions.

In Dawn's case, I think she's pretty darn strong and secure in her identity, but even there rejection by a new group really hurts.  I am very wary about approaching new groups now, being upfront about my nature, and approach new meetups wearing full psychic armor, ready to walk out.  It is unfortunate but necessary. 

One meetup with a new lesbian group was fascinating.  The group was meeting at a large club in off-hours on a Sunday afternoon.  A 'greeter' at the door shuffled each entering person off to different tables.  The folks at my table quickly realized we were all the bi, trans, and nonbinary folks in the room, with the rest of the room being the practically stereotypical Berkeley crowd.   I didn't go back, and neither did a few others at that table that I have since seen elsewhere.

Being in what seems like a supportive group, and then having the folks running it seemingly arbitrarily decide to un-invite, or even worse in some ways, put someone at the 'special' table, can hurt.  When it is done to someone who is already in a fragile state, dealing with a bout of depression or anxiety, or in the throes of coming out or starting transition, this can shatter a person, with a real risk of their falling into suicidal ideation.  I have experienced this, and it can be deadly.

We need to take care about what form our support system takes, make sure we understand the risks posed by different groups, and provide ourselves with 'backup' of some form that we can go to when the unexpected happens and support is pulled out from under us.

[Jessica]

@Michelle_P

The folks running or facilitating a group can have a tremendous impact on how helpful, or harmful a group may be.  Particularly for folks who are early in coming out or the transition process, there may be an innate fragility present that needs to be guarded.  The support systems representatives, those who facilitate or moderate the discussions, need to be aware of this and take some care in their actions.

In Dawn's case, I think she's pretty darn strong and secure in her identity, but even there rejection by a new group really hurts.  I am very wary about approaching new groups now, being upfront about my nature, and approach new meetups wearing full psychic armor, ready to walk out.  It is unfortunate but necessary. 

One meetup with a new lesbian group was fascinating.  The group was meeting at a large club in off-hours on a Sunday afternoon.  A 'greeter' at the door shuffled each entering person off to different tables.  The folks at my table quickly realized we were all the bi, trans, and nonbinary folks in the room, with the rest of the room being the practically stereotypical Berkeley crowd.   I didn't go back, and neither did a few others at that table that I have since seen elsewhere.

Being in what seems like a supportive group, and then having the folks running it seemingly arbitrarily decide to un-invite, or even worse in some ways, put someone at the 'special' table, can hurt.  When it is done to someone who is already in a fragile state, dealing with a bout of depression or anxiety, or in the throes of coming out or starting transition, this can shatter a person, with a real risk of their falling into suicidal ideation.  I have experienced this, and it can be deadly.

We need to take care about what form our support system takes, make sure we understand the risks posed by different groups, and provide ourselves with 'backup' of some form that we can go to when the unexpected happens and support is pulled out from under us.

Michelle, you of course know my history, you were there at my first group.  You never gave unsupportive thoughts to the group and I appreciated that.  A personal friend that you had there was a bit pushy in her thoughts that I should be doing more.  She happened to be correct, but I had no basis to accept it yet.
Other support was gained from a close friend that eventually shut me out, which crushed me.  I am still reeling from it.
I have found others (yourself and Laurie foremost) that I have gained tremendous support from.  New acquaintances I have found have been very beneficial.
One old friend from high school (along with being the "best man" at her wedding) has been extremely accepting of my transition.  I cherish her friendship.  Just knowing that she accepts and is excited for me is one of my best support systems.
So individual support is very vital to me, and it doesn't have to be in a group, though it is nice to be surrounded by other "like thinkers".

[IAmM]

Dawn,
  You ARE better without them. Right and wrong can get muddled here but in the end it will usually lead to exclusion and that is not good for anyone. As awful as it may be it is probably better than getting inside and then being shut out. I have read of so many people that had not found acceptance into these groups, from every angle, I hate that it happens in this minority. I have been excluded from the other side. I never found a group until I had been on hormones for two years and full time for a year and a half. I have been to a few now and I always am on the outside. The first group I went to four or five times and then at pride they completely blew me off, like I did not exist at all. Well okay, don't go back but they kept sending emails to invite me so I went back finally and then the Keystone Conference they snubbed me again, they would not talk to me. We have had dinner together a few times, went to a drag event together and then they acted like I didn't exist at all. I can't tell you why, I don't understand at all. Guess what? They still send me emails to come to group. Don't think so. At the conference no one would talk to me though, talking about being shut out, hundreds of trans women and none talking to me. The only people I connected with the whole time was a 19 year old trans guy and his mom and a 21 year old trans girl and her mom. They were great though the age gap was so big, at least I got on with their moms well. Here I am at a trans conference and the closest connections I made were with cis women. Somehow that doesn't seem right. It was like I had a bubble around me, they would smile, they would look but I couldn't engage any of them in conversation no matter how hard I tried. It was completely demoralizing and I left before lunch on Saturday, I couldn't handle it anymore. I paid for the gala bought a dress and everything and didn't go. I showered every day so I don't think I smelled bad, I don't know what it was but I haven't gone to a trans gathering since. People are great at excluding other people, happens in school, happens at work, happens in families and it even happens in the trans community.

It hurts, I am sorry that you had to experience that, I really believe that it is better for you though. There have to be groups that will embrace you and offer support. Kind of like dating, stinks being rejected, stinks when we have to reject someone but when we find the one special one it makes the effort worth it.
Take care,
Michelle

[MaryT]

Let me play devils advocate here.

I do not necessarily agree with exclusion, but from one potential perspective, if you are not "full time" then how do you and they relate? Your experiences are completely different and you benefit from them, but hey do not benefit from you.

I have stopped going to a number of groups because I don't benefit from being there. 

Have you had your ass grabbed because you were wearing a skirt? Been mansplained or had mechanics attempt to upsell you, the "dumb broad"?

Not saying it's right, but understand your life experiences and challenges are quite different from theirs and perhaps that is not the point of their group. I am in many women's groups and it is often important to be able to relate.

If the exclusion is more of a "well you aren't living as a woman so you aren't trans" then yeah I agree with you, that's dumb and you probably don't want to socialize with them anyways.

It is always justifiable to play devil's advocate, as we need to consider opposing views, whether or not the DA (I always wondered what that stood for but now it makes sense - just kidding) personally supports those views.  I disagree with some of your arguments, though. 

If the group is to provide mutual support for trans people at a certain level of transition, the group should have made that clear when advertising themselves, whether on social media or elsewhere.  If you have to apply before learning what the acceptance criteria are, it is a club, not a support group.

There is obviously a section of the trans population (even a few members of Susan's Place but I certainly don't include you, Jill) that regards itself as innately different even from the majority of expressedly trans people, especially those who have either not transitioned or transitioned later in life.  In Susan's Place, they usually avoid violating the TOS by implying not exactly that they are more female or more trans but rather that there is something else that makes them somehow innately different.  Everyone is different of course but I personally think that when, and how completely, trans people transition is determined more by environment than biology.  Of course, I can't say for certain whether the founders of that Seattle "group" are part of the section that regard themselves as innately different but I suspect that the members they accept will tend to fall into that category.  It is sad because they sometimes really do have much to contribute to the trans community in general.

[GingerVicki]

It is always justifiable to play devil's advocate, as we need to consider opposing views, whether or not the DA (I always wondered what that stood for but now it makes sense - just kidding) personally supports those views.  I disagree with some of your arguments, though.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[Complete]

It is one thing if a group has a specific charter that they put out and refer to in adding members.  Many support groups sponsored by medical organizations do this, with support groups specific for MtF or FtM persons who are working through their transition, and different support groups for persons who have completed transition and any medical work that they had needed. Meetings of these two groups will be very different in tone and in issues discussed.  it is easy to see which one should join from reading their charter.

On the other hand, a group that just puts it out there as a Trans group on Meetup or whatever with no details as to who should or shouldn't join, and then 'judges' applicants without regard to a detailed charter or published set of criteria is just engaging in a bit of snobbery,  rather like old-fashioned college sororities or fraternities with 'pledges' and 'blackballing' votes.

I agree. Understand Dawn, l get a lot of this exclusionary treatment too, soley because l do not fit the "approved" definition or description of trans, (which is fine with me.) I never have identified as trans. Nevertheless, despite all the lip service paid to "inclusiveness", it you don't meet the approved standard, squawk the party line, you will be treated as a pariah.
"I hope it's not lost on this minority group that a contrary opinion got jumped on by a half dozen people" ~Jill

[Complete]

Your own personal happiness is up to you. No one else. You cannot allow others to dictate to you the terms of your happiness.