It is so ingrained

[HappyMoni]

Moni - I know that you know that goof is a term of endearment.  Glad I could flatter you    As far as bat piss to each their own 

I agree with you completely and aspire to your life goals.  Also I have noticed the change in my demeanor since transition.  I am fiercely dedicated about trans rights and acceptance but I really enjoy just having pleasant conversation with other women.  On the whole they are so much more comfortable with us than guys are.

Kim, of course you called me a goof as a term of endearment. Once I get to know you better, I'll have a few choice words for you too. 

I would modify your last sentence slightly to reflect my experience. I think guys take more time to get comfortable with us. Women I work with, mostly, were easily accepting. The guys are more cautious. My theory is that when one is first out, guys are unsure because they are protecting their status. Heck, there isn't a big track record for being around newly out trans folk. Maybe they fear being thought of as less than masculine or gay for being too comfortable with us. After a while they can come around. I stopped in a hallway recently, reading something. A guy I worked with yelled up the hallway, "Hey little girl, are you lost?" Besides making my day, that kind of acceptance and public display wouldn't have happened a year or two ago. In a sense, it is more valuable to me because it was harder to get. Your friend Scott might have a bit of insecurity himself. Telling crap stories like he did might be his way to shore up his masculine 'cred.' Thinking back, when I was younger I was so fearful of being found out, I made those nasty "cred' acquiring comments? Still, that kind of stuff hurts, right?

So, Complete, I do have a question for you. Is that you in the boat?

[TonyaW]

Kim, of course you called me a goof as a term of endearment. Once I get to know you better, I'll have a few choice words for you too.  [emoji14]

I would modify your last sentence slightly to reflect my experience. I think guys take more time to get comfortable with us. Women I work with, mostly, were easily accepting. The guys are more cautious. My theory is that when one is first out, guys are unsure because they are protecting their status. Heck, there isn't a big track record for being around newly out trans folk. Maybe they fear being thought of as less than masculine or gay for being too comfortable with us. After a while they can come around. I stopped in a hallway recently, reading something. A guy I worked with yelled up the hallway, "Hey little girl, are you lost?" Besides making my day, that kind of acceptance and public display wouldn't have happened a year or two ago. In a sense, it is more valuable to me because it was harder to get. Your friend Scott might have a bit of insecurity himself. Telling crap stories like he did might be his way to shore up his masculine 'cred.' Thinking back, when I was younger I was so fearful of being found out, I made those nasty "cred' acquiring comments? Still, that kind of stuff hurts, right?

So, Complete, I do have a question for you. Is that you in the boat?

I was thinking that same stuff about guys being slower to accept or at least be comfortable around trans women because of masculinity and I don't want to say homophobia, but kinda that.  The guys I work with talk to me as always but I've noticed that they don't use my name as often and they have been slower with using the right pronouns than the women.



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[Complete]

So, Complete, I do have a question for you. Is that you in the boat?

~Mony

I will ignore the obvious flame bait and just chalk up your irrelevant question to your warped sense of humor.
Would you like a reciprocal question 😈



<edit by moderator>

[HappyMoni]

Oh, I was just playing Complete! I did spell your name right, didn't I? You are right, I am pretty warped in my humor. At least we are talking and not yelling at each other. For people with to very different viewpoints, talking, joking, well, its a start, isn't it?
Hugs,
Moni

[KimOct]

So back to the topic,  I have been taking it easy the last few days before I go back into a tough work schedule.  Since I completed my job search (hopefully - offer is pending ) I am just laying around for a few days watching too much TV and typing on here 

During that TV watching I have been watching a lot of sitcoms (escapism) and just since posting this thread I have seen recent or current TV shows making fun of us.  This is not paranoia on my part.  Example a 'The Office' episode from 2012 the character Dwight was slamming a new character and as a dig said that he dated a ->-bleeped-<-.  I love 'The Office'.

I saw several examples while binge watching Big Bang on DVR.  I mean very recent episodes - not 12 years ago.  I love that show too.

The point I am making is that society's view of us over the years has been shaped to think we are a joke.  People are almost always nice and if a direct example comes up most support us but it is still funny to see men portrayed as women.  That is why we have internalized transphobia and are ashamed.  We have been taught that we are a joke.
No wonder it takes so much courage to come out.

[Jessica]

So back to the topic,  I have been taking it easy the last few days before I go back into a tough work schedule.  Since I completed my job search (hopefully - offer is pending ) I am just laying around for a few days watching too much TV and typing on here 

During that TV watching I have been watching a lot of sitcoms (escapism) and just since posting this thread I have seen recent or current TV shows making fun of us.  This is not paranoia on my part.  Example a 'The Office' episode from 2012 the character Dwight was slamming a new character and as a dig said that he dated a ->-bleeped-<-.  I love 'The Office'.

I saw several examples while binge watching Big Bang on DVR.  I mean very recent episodes - not 12 years ago.  I love that show too.

The point I am making is that society's view of us over the years has been shaped to think we are a joke.  People are almost always nice and if a direct example comes up most support us but it is still funny to see men portrayed as women.  That is why we have internalized transphobia and are ashamed.  We have been taught that we are a joke.
No wonder it takes so much courage to come out.

Wonderful insight!  It is getting better though.  On the "Connors", Dan's grandson acts and dresses in a feminine way.  There is an episode where Dan is forced to deal with it.  He was uncomfortable, but was able to talk to his grandson and understood that this is who he is.
Never ever in the show have I seen him as the joke.  Done quite well.

[KimOct]

I agree Jessica - I was watching the reboot of the show also.  Too bad it was cancelled they had good messages but Sara Gilbert was the only one that captured my attention.

Things are definitely changing for the better and that is great but we still have a long, long way to go.  As I said in the title it is so ingrained.

I can take a joke once the joke is obviously a joke.  We are not there yet.  We are still thought of as THE JOKE.

PS
Thanks for the shout out Jessica - I saw that.  Made me smile.

[LizK]

On a cooking show here they had a big build up over "the word" that was said that "changed everything"....All the contestants were sitting around waiting on dinner and a conversation came up about first impressions when the contestants first met.

One woman turned to the other and said when I first met you I thought you were "Trans"....the woman's response was incredulous "you thought I was a ->-bleeped-<-" she said with a look of absolute horror and so the drama ensued as if this is the most horrible thing that could have been said to anyone, let alone a cis woman...it was a real beat up with the channel milking it for all it was worth ...They even had the woman on the following day's breakfast show talking about what an impact it had on her and her children. This woman said she had no issues as she "works with transgenders"...after the remark was made the person who made it created a real drama and show of feeling guilty for "saying such a thing" as though being called Trans is the worst insult in the world.

Stupidity I followed the incident up on line to see what the people were saying...many many were agreeing that this cis woman was Trans and calling her a man etc...the comments were as bad as you can imagine.

The thing that struck me most of all was the emphasis was on "how bad" it was that someone would call you Trans.

I think the media can easily make our lives far more sensational than it ever is or needs to be   

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[Complete]

What really hurts, (and IMHO is even worse), is that the greatest, (and in their mind the most intentionally hurtful) insult hurled at long time post-op and fully assimilated women by some trans-women, is that they, (we), "are just like them, except that they, (we),  have an inverted penis".

[KimOct]

It has only been a few years since I transitioned.  The fear I felt those first few months is still fresh in my memory. 
That is why I am on this forum, for those that are at that point now.

It doesn't matter if we had surgery 30 years ago and have been living this life for years, didn't have surgery at all or if it is our first day out in public.  Everyone should be treated with respect regardless of who they are, how they look or how they identify.  The only judgment should be about our actions and how we treat the rest of society.

[Complete]

It has only been a few years since I transitioned.  The fear I felt those first few months is still fresh in my memory. 
That is why I am on this forum, for those that are at that point now.

It doesn't matter if we had surgery 30 years ago and have been living this life for years, didn't have surgery at all or if it is our first day out in public.  Everyone should be treated with respect regardless of who they are, how they look or how they identify.  The only judgment should be about our actions and how we treat the rest of society.

That is an excellent point. Just as we ask and (rightly or wrongly), expect others, and society as a whole to respect and maybe even understand our feelings, is it not encumbent upon us to do the same for them?
Try to remember just how hard it was for you to maybe understand much less accept who you were.

[HappyMoni]

First of all, TV shows! On Shameless they have a real life trans man playing a trans man and is Ian's love interest. They dealt with Ian's misconceptions and Ian's brother's stupid and insensitive comments. Trevor is an awesome character and so far they have handled his situation respectfully. I hope they continue. I am pulling for this character. He  is one of the most 'normal' characters on that show.

It's funny, but I never expect anyone to understand me being trans. I only ask for respect as a human being. I try to return that respect unless their actions warrant something else. I get that people's knowledge of trans people is limited. Unfortunately that knowledge is perverted by much of what is seen on TV. I have been thinking about trying to lobby an on air personality to try to get more representation that would be a truthful depiction of us.

[KimOct]

Couldn't agree more Moni.  How could someone cis understand what it is to be trans?  It would be like someone white claiming that they know what it is like to be black.  Respect and support - sure.  Understanding, not possible.  Same with us.

Don't misunderstand the theme of this topic, I definitely think there have been strides forward.  My point is that laughing at us and misconceptions are so deeply ingrained that it will take years to continue to move the needle forward.

On my final day of laying around I was just watching some more of 'The Office' a few minutes ago.  In a 2013 episode there were 2 scenes back to back.  It was so telling.  In the first scene (for those that don't know the show ) two characters (Oscar and Daryl ) were pretending to be a gay couple to get a Valentine's Day discount.  Only one of the characters was actually gay.  The shop owner said no and the straight character stood up for their rights.  It is because of where the gay rights movement has evolved to.

In the very next scene - a late to the series character addition ( Clark ) was being laughed at by a coworker and manicurists because he looked ' like a pretty girl"  I was struck by the huge difference in the back to back scenes.

One scene showed support and the other scene showed mocking.  Things are getting better but it is still.....
so ingrained.

[Complete]

What l see as seriously ingrained, is victimhood. Hence the addiction to identity politics. Hmmm...let's see, some examples might be Elisabeth Warren, Justin Smollett, ....?

[KimOct]

Correction his name is Jussie Smollett and if what is currently being reported is true it is terrible.  Creating a false attack whether it be to enhance his career or even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and consider that it was to make a statement either of those is inexcusable. 

There are enough examples of real hate crimes and faking one is never OK.  In fact it harms those that have legitimate claims.

There is a wide gap between victim-hood and being discriminated against, marginalized or oppressed. 

Is victim-hood a real thing?  I would say yes it is.  Some people are always looking to claim that they have been victimized in some way.   Are discrimination, marginalization and oppression real things also.  YES !!

A reasonable person can see that all of the above exist.

[Linde]

What really hurts, (and IMHO is even worse), is that the greatest, (and in their mind the most intentionally hurtful) insult hurled at long time post-op and fully assimilated women by some trans-women, is that they, (we), "are just like them, except that they, (we),  have an inverted penis".

That's a new one!  I have not heard this one yet.  Why don't they just go ahead and quickly invert their penis?

[Complete]

That's a new one!  I have not heard this one yet.  Why don't they just go ahead and quickly invert their penis?

Penis inversion is one of the original techniques used to create a neo-vaginal canal. Many trans-women find this very  painful, expensive and questionably effective technique un-necessary for their own needs. Hence my objection to the assertion that, "we are all the same".

[Complete]

Correction his name is Jussie Smollett and if what is currently being reported is true it is terrible.  Creating a false attack whether it be to enhance his career or even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and consider that it was to make a statement either of those is inexcusable. 

There are enough examples of real hate crimes and faking one is never OK.  In fact it harms those that have legitimate claims.

There is a wide gap between victim-hood and being discriminated against, marginalized or oppressed. 

Is victim-hood a real thing?  I would say yes it is.  Some people are always looking to claim that they have been victimized in some way.   Are discrimination, marginalization and oppression real things also.  YES !!

A reasonable person can see that all of the above exist.

I am not sure where you get your reporting,  but the last l heard,  Smollet was free on $100,0000 bail, pending his arraignment on a Class IV felony of making a false police report and staging a hate crime in order to further his hateful narrative that Trump supporters are racist homo-phobes.
I agree that this is wrong and hope he is fairly tried and held accountable.
My point,  in case l was unclear is that this ingrained need for victimhood, has a tendency to impair  clear thinking and impair the ability and desire to profit from one's own efforts and hard work, rather than seeking the seemingly easy rewards of self induced victimhood.

[Linde]

Penis inversion is one of the original techniques used to create a neo-vaginal canal. Many trans-women find this very  painful, expensive and questionably effective technique un-necessary for their own needs. Hence my objection to the assertion that, "we are all the same".

I know, my replay was just kind of satiric!
I am not for comparing any human with another, or put labels on,  we are all different.  The only thing we really have in common is that most of us carry their head on top of the torso!

[KimOct]

I am not sure where you get your reporting,  but the last l heard,  Smollet was free on $100,0000 bail, pending his arraignment on a Class IV felony of making a false police report and staging a hate crime in order to further his hateful narrative that Trump supporters are racist homo-phobes.
I agree that this is wrong and hope he is fairly tried and held accountable.
My point,  in case l was unclear is that this ingrained need for victimhood, has a tendency to impair  clear thinking and impair the ability and desire to profit from one's own efforts and hard work, rather than seeking the seemingly easy rewards of self induced victimhood.

Our political views differ significantly however I am very willing to acknowledge that not everyone that shares my views act appropriately at all times.  It would appear that is the case with Mr. Smollett.  The police work seems to have been very thorough.  Of course just like anyone else it needs to be proven in court.

Regarding victimhood I know a lot of hard working people that advocate tirelessly for the rights of others.  I could list my own very hard work throughout my life in the midst of extreme challenges but I am not going to bore others with what I have overcome in detail.

No individual or ideological view has a monopoly on truth or justice but I still firmly believe that our society has a large number of marginalized people.  I have lived on both sides.  I have been privileged and I have been poor.  I have had terrible illnesses and I have prevailed.

What I have learned is that walking awhile in other people's shoes teaches a person a lot.  It has me.
As for Mr. Trump we will agree to disagree.  There are other venues such as Facebook etc for indepth political debates and this is as far as I care to go on this forum in that regard.  That is not the focus here.

My intent with this topic was not a political discussion and by reviewing my previous posts in this thread I focused on how transgender people are viewed by society.  I could go for pages regarding the political ramifications for transgender people but I choose not to as I think it is inappropriate in this venue.