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How to refute religious arguments?

Started by AlexUABC, February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM

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Charmed

In my experience there are religious individuals who closely scrutinize aspects of their faith, and prioritize parts of their religion that they feel are the primary tenets. It is several of these individuals who were more receptive to seeing all people as valued members of God or whatever community of worship they belong to. It's those people who can accept others who might not fit the modern intersections of politics and religion, or at investigate whether these standards actually fit the overarching spirit of their belief system.

Then there are those who face a sense of cognitive dissonance when they find out a loved one is transgender or gay. Their road is usually the hardest internally because they go back and forth so much it makes me dizzy. Sometimes they come around, sometimes they don't. In my experience it is usually somewhere in the middle.

Then there are those that hold so close to scripture that any challenge to it causes them a form of emotional pain. Stubborn faith. It's very very difficult to find an opportunity to have a genuine and empathy driven discussion here. I'm sorry but often these individuals tend to "wait to speak" and do not actively listen. I have yet to make any form of inroads here.

And yes there are those in the middle of each of those descriptions. Faith is like a spectrum in some way for people in general. I used to be Roman Catholic and stepped away from that path, but haven't turned my back on the fundamental tenets of Jesus and his teachings of love, forgiveness, peace, and sacrifice. Currently I can find no organized Christian Faith that will accept my family and myself without suspicion and derision.

I will still keep my beliefs, and hope that I find more out that that date to listen with an empathy filled heart and soul.


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Jennifer300

First let me say I in no way intend to offend anyone by writing this, religion is a very touchy and personal subject.  On the other hand, if it is going to be weaponized to try to give someone a reason not to accept me as I was born and reduce my chances of keeping friends and family, this discussion needs to be had with many people's input. 

I grew up in a very conservative religious home.  I have since traveled and experienced life outside that home.  I don't know if there is a all knowing creator, but I would hope anyone Omnipotent  enough to create a universe would understand and have the grace to love ALL the creatures they made.  Also, WE know we were born this way, so if the creator made us in error, how could we possibly be held accountable if it is wrong?

  There are many religions and many versions of the bible.  The Bible I grew up with claimed the New Testament was the one we are held accountable to since God realized we could never follow the laws in the old one.  That said, it makes many fine points as to how crazy it was.  I believe the Jewish religion believes Jesus was a great guy, but just a man and they still must go by the old law in the Old Testament, but I am not familiar with the Jewish Faith.  That said, here is a link to a letter written to Dr Laura after she quoted the old testament and said homosexuality was an abomination in the eyes of God.  It is quite comical, yet really drives home how crazy following it to the letter would be. 

Without further delay, Why can't I own a Canadian?

https://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/areasontosmile/2011/11/dear-dr-laura-why-cant-i-own-a-canadian.html
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Chloe

Quote from: Jennifer300 on February 28, 2019, 06:14:03 AM
I grew up in a very conservative religious home.
My mother insisted on Catholic church but father? Not so much, didn't care, was a "reformist" Protestant but it was I who chose Jesuit University and really do think both Testaments, written by people (like us?), have to be taken within the author context they were written. It's called "redaction criticism" and some "religious attitudes" are just way too literal & simplistic.
QuoteWhen someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
You can "debate" all you want but actions speak louder than words and the modern example of "cis lifestyles" is worse, certainly not better!

         Big thing back then was "begetting", "sowing of seed" and "spreading of the faith" but what do you now say to an unsustainable world of over 8 billion people? Make room! Someone has to go? Yeah abortion? More WAR not a bad thing?

         lol One could argue "homosexual lifestyles" are providing one valuable service! And what about eunuchs? Ever look up the definition? Comes pretty close to what us "trans" are doing (ok ok sans the gender-crossing") but "God" supposedly admired and loved them! 

Gotta get 3yr old ready for school sorry END OF DISCUSSION!
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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Linde

Quote from: Charmed on February 27, 2019, 11:46:28 PM


And yes there are those in the middle of each of those descriptions. Faith is like a spectrum in some way for people in general. I used to be Roman Catholic and stepped away from that path, but haven't turned my back on the fundamental tenets of Jesus and his teachings of love, forgiveness, peace, and sacrifice. Currently I can find no organized Christian Faith that will accept my family and myself without suspicion and derision.

I will still keep my beliefs, and hope that I find more out that that date to listen with an empathy filled heart and soul.


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I am very much like you, grew up Roman Catholic, but do not practice this anymore for many decades already.  I am a Christian, no doubt about this, but I am searching for a church that could become a religious home for em.  I am leaning Methodist, because my nice is a wonderful pastor of this denomination (I love my nice like crazy), but I cannot make my belonging to a church anchored on a single pastor only.  But whatever happens, i will remain a
Christian for the rest of my life)
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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steph2.0

Quote from: AlexUABC on February 26, 2019, 04:30:21 PM
Since I have reason to use I have always felt that I am a girl trapped in the body of a child I have grown and although I tried to get this idea is inside me and I know that I am actually a woman but when telling my parents I always leave with his argument that "God made you man" "God is not wrong"
How can I rebut them?

"God doesn't make mistakes. And you don't get to define what 'mistake' means. She made me this way."


Assigned male at birth 1958 * Began envying sister 1963 * Knew unquestioningly that I was female 1968 * Acted the male part for 50 years * Meltdown and first therapist session May 2017 * Began HRT 6/21/17 * Out to the world 10/13/17 * Name Change 12/7/2017 (Girl Harbor Day) * FFS With FacialTeam 12/4/2018 * Facelift and Lipo Body Sculpting at Ocean Clinic 6/13-14/2019 * GCS with Marci Bowers 9/25/2019
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Colleen_definitely

As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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steph2.0



Assigned male at birth 1958 * Began envying sister 1963 * Knew unquestioningly that I was female 1968 * Acted the male part for 50 years * Meltdown and first therapist session May 2017 * Began HRT 6/21/17 * Out to the world 10/13/17 * Name Change 12/7/2017 (Girl Harbor Day) * FFS With FacialTeam 12/4/2018 * Facelift and Lipo Body Sculpting at Ocean Clinic 6/13-14/2019 * GCS with Marci Bowers 9/25/2019
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Michelle_P

I had 12 years of Catholic school, lots of Bible study and theological hair splitting.  I found Matthew to be very useful, particularly with this reasoning:

God and my Transgender Nature

God does not make mistakes.  God does test us, and those around us, through His gifts.  He may grant us gifts to use in our lives, if only we can recognize them. What we do with those gifts matters.

Recall the "Parable of the talents".  A man going on a journey calls his three servants together.  He entrusts 5 talents (a talent is about 80 pounds of silver, roughly 20 years wages at the time.) to one servant he sees as being very able, 2 talents to a capable servant, and one talent to the third servant.  Then, he leaves.  The servant with 5 talents invests them, and makes another 5 talents.  The servant with 2 talents invests them, and earns another 2 talents.  The third servant buries his talent, fearful of risking it.   The man returns after a long period and settles accounts with them.  The first servant returns 10 talents, the original 5 plus the investment gain, and the man praises him, granting him a high position.  The second servant returns 4 talents, the original 2 plus the gain, and the man praises and promotes him as well.  The third servant returns the original talent he buried.  The man decries his wicked and slothful ways, takes the one talent from him and gives it to the servant with the 10 talents.  "For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.  And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Now, when I was created, I had a family that was fairly well off, a good home, and I would develop with an intelligent and curious mind, the potential for a good education, as a white male.  I think God looked at this and thought "OK, this one has it pretty easy, and needs a special challenge to fully develop.  I think I'll give this one the soul of a woman and see what they do with that."  God caused my mother and doctor to use a new medication, DES, that made my brain ready to receive a female soul.

Now, having been granted this gift, and realizing what I have, what am I to do with it?  Shall I bury it, hiding it from the light, so at the end of my days I can only return this gift, unused and uninvested?   Or should I bring this gift into the light of day, use it to it's fullest extent, to let it grow and flourish, for the benefit of myself and those around me, so I may return this gift manyfold at the end of my days?

Now, there are those who would have me bury it, suffer in silence, for this gift makes them uncomfortable.  At The End Of Days, they may very well be cast into the outer darkness.  In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Chloe

          This thread, "How to refute religious arguments?" is a fools' errand and if your church, or more precisely its congregation, espouses hate & discrimination in any form then I suggest you simply seek out another their loss not ours! We are not "the problem" rather THEY ARE and if ya don't believe me just look at the volume of any establishments policy on "Sexual Harassment" as compared to all other "discriminations" combined!

My school's "policy", directly endorsed by the "Catholic Church" btw, is as follows:
Quote from: Fairfield University . . .. .  does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, marital status etc etc . . .
( fairfield.edu/handbook/policiesprocedures/#Non-Discrimination )
Religion can either "adapt or die", the world is an ever-changing place and, of course, it's up to "us" not "them" if it's ever going to get better.
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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alyssalove2790

I usually start off with something along the lines of:
''Religion (or faith), is a matter of perception, it varies from person to person, either minor differences or wild''

With this I state the differences of perception between individuals, even within the same religious group. Like... some Christians accept us, and some don't.

If they continue their religious arguments with the same righteous tone I just tell them off, ending the argument:
''See? Different perceptions. I do not share yours.''


I will, sometimes, put Christians under the test with ''I'm a Satanist''. To see what they know of it (and most don't)!.
2018/**/** Coming out
2019/01/15 Begun HRT! Low dose Cypro and E.
2019/03/04 Full time woman!
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Lady Sarah

Quote from: Dietlind on February 28, 2019, 09:34:53 AM
I am very much like you, grew up Roman Catholic, but do not practice this anymore for many decades already.  I am a Christian, no doubt about this, but I am searching for a church that could become a religious home for em.  I am leaning Methodist, because my nice is a wonderful pastor of this denomination (I love my nice like crazy), but I cannot make my belonging to a church anchored on a single pastor only.  But whatever happens, i will remain a
Christian for the rest of my life)

I was also raised Catholic, but left the church  after they condoned the child abuse I endured. I became Baptist, and left that church after realizing just how hateful and demeaning they were. I am still Christian, but with no church. I see no need to attend services filled with snakes in the pews in order to worship Christ. I can do that just fine at home or in my vehicle, and don't have to be a show off about it. There is a passage somewhere about those whom go to church to show off religion, and many that do are sinners out of church. Nobody need answer to them. Jesus said his father loves everyone unconditionally, but they will be judged by their deeds.
started HRT: July 13, 1991
orchi: December 23, 1994
trach shave: November, 1998
married: August 16, 2015
Back surgery: October 20, 2016
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Melinda@heart

As a Christian Transgender WOMAN, I'll simply say this. If ANY self proclaimed Christian acts with anything other than LOVE towards ANY OTHER human being, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or whatever, they are NOT following the teachings and examples set forth by Jesus himself. He loved and accepted all. In fact, he preached against the laws that man made, which kept people so burdened with sin, that they could not hope to enter heaven. When asked which commandment was greatest, he said; "Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, all thine soul and with all thine mind. And an equally important command is Love thy neighbor as thyself." If Christians followed what Jesus said, the churches would be over flowing with people. Sadly, they are the first to bury their wounded. They all too often attack or reject people who need God the most.

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Linde

Quote from: Melinda@heart on February 28, 2019, 10:35:20 PM
As a Christian Transgender WOMAN, I'll simply say this. If ANY self proclaimed Christian acts with anything other than LOVE towards ANY OTHER human being, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or whatever, they are NOT following the teachings and examples set forth by Jesus himself. He loved and accepted all. In fact, he preached against the laws that man made, which kept people so burdened with sin, that they could not hope to enter heaven. When asked which commandment was greatest, he said; "Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, all thine soul and with all thine mind. And an equally important command is Love thy neighbor as thyself." If Christians followed what Jesus said, the churches would be over flowing with people. Sadly, they are the first to bury their wounded. They all too often attack or reject people who need God the most.

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They see it different (learnt through countless hours of "Bible Study" sessions during which a homophobic cleric told them what to believe or not!

As in my case, my friend does love me, so she says, and that is the reason that she prays for me that I can let go of this sinful lifestyle!  All done in the "name of love" so they say!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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pamelatransuk

Michelle

Thank you for utilizing "The Parable of the Talents" for our cause. I like it and I shall also utilize when the right occasion occurs.

Linde

Further to my reply25 above, it is the same with my (former) friend. He says he will pray for me meaning with a view to correcting my ways. Sad these people are blind to Jesus's love.

Hugs to all

Pamela 


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Linde

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 01, 2019, 06:52:43 AM


Linde

Further to my reply25 above, it is the same with my (former) friend. He says he will pray for me meaning with a view to correcting my ways. Sad these people are blind to Jesus's love.

Hugs to all

Pamela
Pamela, i just leave those kind of people behind, and pray for them to see the light one of these days.  If they feel that they are still my friends at that time, I will embrace them fully again and thank god for another wonder that was done.

I do not have enough time left of my life to be othered with negative people.  I want to live those years I have left as a happy woman, and have as much joy and love around me, as possible.
Linde
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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Colleen_definitely

Quote from: Melinda@heart on February 28, 2019, 10:35:20 PM
As a Christian Transgender WOMAN, I'll simply say this. If ANY self proclaimed Christian acts with anything other than LOVE towards ANY OTHER human being, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, or whatever, they are NOT following the teachings and examples set forth by Jesus himself. He loved and accepted all. In fact, he preached against the laws that man made, which kept people so burdened with sin, that they could not hope to enter heaven. When asked which commandment was greatest, he said; "Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, all thine soul and with all thine mind. And an equally important command is Love thy neighbor as thyself." If Christians followed what Jesus said, the churches would be over flowing with people. Sadly, they are the first to bury their wounded. They all too often attack or reject people who need God the most.

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People seem to love the old testament laws because it gives them a feeling of superiority when they follow only a few and condemn those who don't follow quite as many.

Being accepting as taught in the new testament doesn't feed the ego.
As our ashes turn to dust, we shine like stars...
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Alice (nym)

Quote from: Colleen_definitely on March 01, 2019, 10:18:41 AM
People seem to love the old testament laws because it gives them a feeling of superiority when they follow only a few and condemn those who don't follow quite as many.

Being accepting as taught in the new testament doesn't feed the ego.

That's why I started with Isaiah 56:4-5 and then moved onto Genesis before the new testament stuff. The biggest problem is Deuteronomy 22:5 followed by 1 Corinthians 11:14-15. But those are only a problem if they continue to see you as male and not as female. If you have undergone surgery then it is suggest by Isaiah 56:4-5 that you are neither male or female and therefore free to choose how you wish to identify.

Of course, for me, and I mean no offense to those who do have faith... this is all nonsense. Hence the conclusion of my post... but if you wish to argue with those who have faith then you need to start from a position of faith. People will create barriers if you try to dismiss their beliefs, instead you show understanding and seek to change the argument with examples from within their faith to show them that there is an alternative way in which to view their beliefs that leaves room for your existence. It is not ideal but it is better than simply dismissing them. We need not be at each others throats when there is a way to coexist respecting each others' rights.
Don't hate the hate... Start spreading the love.
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pamelatransuk

Quote from: Alice (nym) on March 02, 2019, 12:57:31 PM
But those are only a problem if they continue to see you as male and not as female. If you have undergone surgery then it is suggest by Isaiah 56:4-5 that you are neither male or female and therefore free to choose how you wish to identify.


Hello again Alice (nym)

The trouble with these hardline evangelicals is that they continue to see us as male either before or after HRT and/or surgery since they are blind and wish to remain so.

They also maintain that any action we may take on gender is an offence to God as he chose our gender and we have no right to go against his plan. This is ridiculous as God knows we are transgender and wishes us to seek happiness and will love us whether we take action on our transgender status or not.

I am 13 months HRT and will be publicly transitioning in Summer.

Hugs to all

Pamela 


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Lady Sarah

Quote from: pamelatransuk on March 03, 2019, 08:44:20 AM
Hello again Alice (nym)

The trouble with these hardline evangelicals is that they continue to see us as male either before or after HRT and/or surgery since they are blind and wish to remain so.

They also maintain that any action we may take on gender is an offence to God as he chose our gender and we have no right to go against his plan. This is ridiculous as God knows we are transgender and wishes us to seek happiness and will love us whether we take action on our transgender status or not.

I am 13 months HRT and will be publicly transitioning in Summer.

Hugs to all

Pamela

And none of their kids get vaccinated, because God wants them to get mumps and measles. Cleft palette? Leave it that way. Look at all the birth defects. At one time, they killed all children born with any defect. They changed that law, and seem to love looking at deformed children as they raise money to raise awareness, but none to combat those defects.

When they choose ignorance, you cannot educate them.
started HRT: July 13, 1991
orchi: December 23, 1994
trach shave: November, 1998
married: August 16, 2015
Back surgery: October 20, 2016
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Ann W

@AlexUABC

You have received many excellent responses with a wealth of insight on this issue.

People who comment on your being transgender by saying things like, "God doesn't make mistakes," are usually not looking to understand; they're usually looking to shut you down. They aren't listening.

On the off chance that they are, my preferred response is to tell them that it's a birth defect: your brain your body, your gender and your sex, are divergent. You are no more a "mistake" than were Stephen Hawking, Helen Keller, or any other of those incredible, inspirational human beings who suffered a disability that was forced upon them and overcame – and did so spectacularly.

In centuries past, people used to look at those with horrible physical afflictions as "cursed," and cross the street to avoid them. They blamed the victim, because they couldn't deal with what they saw. There are still places in the world where this is done, e.g. to children with cleft palates. I think this is what is going on today, with us, when "religious" people become violently vociferous against us. They are fleeing a reality they cannot process.

I think there is reason for us being as we are. Disability teaches compassion, both to the sufferer and those around her – or can do so. The sufferer must rise above bitterness and despair, while those around her must rise above fear and prejudice. And so we all learn to love one another a little more.
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