Boxes

[Tribble]

Boxes, the bane of my existence.  I've always wanted one, but none that I'd ever heard of ever really fit.  I desperately want a box to live in, but I simply cannot find mine.

Please forgive me for starting another thread, but I didn't feel comfortable stepping on someone else's thread for this.

I used to live outwardly-comfortably as a hetero male.  I actually did enjoy some of the privileges it provided me.  I've lived as a gay and straight woman.  Neither sexuality has mattered to me, but my own identity never fit what other trans women have described...they haven't identified as trans women, they've identified as women.  That never did seem to fit me.  As well, other trans women I've talked to have always said they are always cis women in their sleeping dreams.  I'm almost always presenting female, but I always have this embarrassing "thing" that I need to hide, which, speaking of, almost always finds its way into my dreams in a mortifying way.

It might be my own perfectionism infiltrating my own identity, but I've always felt that I've been impersonating women or men, however I'm presenting.  I feel like I'm invading others' space, others' reality.  I'm comfortable hanging out with groups of men or women, other than when it comes to personal matters (men talking about their virility or women talking about reproductive issues or societal inequities and experiences).

Given that I lived with one gender role for nearly 30 years, I have what are considered masculine interests, almost exclusively.  I love fast cars and machinery and computer graphics and I even consider myself somewhat of a mechanical inventor.  When I'm presenting female, I almost always wear jeans and t-shirts and almost never wear makeup.  In fact, wearing makeup makes me even more self-conscious and "fake".

I never had dreams of transitioning.  I prayed and prayed and prayed that I would wake up one day with a female body.  Even though I believe this is a tabu subject, I even had certain aspirations when I'd heard Dr. White was working on human brain transplants.  Sorry.

I just feel that no matter what I do, no matter how I present, I'm always wearing a mask and not being my true self.

I don't know if I'm actually NB, but as I said before, I do enjoy some of the privileges that presenting male has, even if I'm a short-ish weakling of a man.  It feels confining at the same time.

I have strong body dysmorphia.  When it comes to intimacy, I want my own body to be completely ignored, which is entirely unfair to my partner, whomever that may be.  GCS, if I can ever afford it, is in my future.

It's my identity and my presentation that bothers me the most, though.  Sexuality, I'm comfortable with whatever I am.  Identity is my issue.

I'm not a woman with a penis.  I do NOT identify as a man whatsoever., but I don't identify as a woman, either.  Honestly, I identify as a freak, but I understand how most people don't like that term.

I love being misgendered when I'm presenting as male.  In other words, I feel awesome when someone ma'ams me, says she or her.  I feel like I'm invading cis women's space when I outwardly present as female.

Am I NB?  Am I gender fluid?  Something else, emphasis on thing?

I guess I'd better enter a caveat here...I mean no offense whatsoever to anyone.  I most likely have terminology wrong and I may be demonstrating concepts that could piss some people off.  I just wish I knew, for sure, what box I could claim as my own as each time I climb into one I look across the room and see another that I would love to occupy.

[Northern Star Girl]

@Tribble
Dear Tribble:
Very interesting posting of yours....  Please know that I read it TWICE and I am still not certain as to how to compose an intelligent sounding reply comment in response to all of what you stated.

I will say that much of what you wrote can certainly apply to how other transitioners might feel about their own life events.

Frankly, I think it is good that you verbalized your feelings thus allowing you to mentally ponder all the issues that you brought up in your post.
Writing about things like this is certainly good personal therapy and allows you to develop positive feelings and positive actions that will help you as you continue in your life journey.

Please forgive me for not having clever and intelligent answers for you... but I do feel that all of this was a good exercise for you, and for me to explore your "boxes"....
Please continue to post as you feel so led.

Here on the forums we are your biggest fans and we are always rooting for your success. 
When you have good news to report we will rejoice with you, and when the news is not-so-good we are hear with an ear to listen and a shoulder to lean on.

I am always wishing you well ...
Hugs and best wishes,
Danielle

[Janes Groove]

Why beat yourself up with labels?  If  you want to live as a woman do so.  It's OK.
Do what you know.

[Sonja]

Boxes, the bane of my existence.  I've always wanted one, but none that I'd ever heard of ever really fit.  I desperately want a box to live in, but I simply cannot find mine.

Please forgive me for starting another thread, but I didn't feel comfortable stepping on someone else's thread for this.

I used to live outwardly-comfortably as a hetero male.  I actually did enjoy some of the privileges it provided me.  I've lived as a gay and straight woman.  Neither sexuality has mattered to me, but my own identity never fit what other trans women have described...they haven't identified as trans women, they've identified as women.  That never did seem to fit me.  As well, other trans women I've talked to have always said they are always cis women in their sleeping dreams.  I'm almost always presenting female, but I always have this embarrassing "thing" that I need to hide, which, speaking of, almost always finds its way into my dreams in a mortifying way.

It might be my own perfectionism infiltrating my own identity, but I've always felt that I've been impersonating women or men, however I'm presenting.  I feel like I'm invading others' space, others' reality.  I'm comfortable hanging out with groups of men or women, other than when it comes to personal matters (men talking about their virility or women talking about reproductive issues or societal inequities and experiences).

Given that I lived with one gender role for nearly 30 years, I have what are considered masculine interests, almost exclusively.  I love fast cars and machinery and computer graphics and I even consider myself somewhat of a mechanical inventor.  When I'm presenting female, I almost always wear jeans and t-shirts and almost never wear makeup.  In fact, wearing makeup makes me even more self-conscious and "fake".

I never had dreams of transitioning.  I prayed and prayed and prayed that I would wake up one day with a female body.  Even though I believe this is a tabu subject, I even had certain aspirations when I'd heard Dr. White was working on human brain transplants.  Sorry.

I just feel that no matter what I do, no matter how I present, I'm always wearing a mask and not being my true self.

I don't know if I'm actually NB, but as I said before, I do enjoy some of the privileges that presenting male has, even if I'm a short-ish weakling of a man.  It feels confining at the same time.

I have strong body dysmorphia.  When it comes to intimacy, I want my own body to be completely ignored, which is entirely unfair to my partner, whomever that may be.  GCS, if I can ever afford it, is in my future.

It's my identity and my presentation that bothers me the most, though.  Sexuality, I'm comfortable with whatever I am.  Identity is my issue.

I'm not a woman with a penis.  I do NOT identify as a man whatsoever., but I don't identify as a woman, either.  Honestly, I identify as a freak, but I understand how most people don't like that term.

I love being misgendered when I'm presenting as male.  In other words, I feel awesome when someone ma'ams me, says she or her.  I feel like I'm invading cis women's space when I outwardly present as female.

Am I NB?  Am I gender fluid?  Something else, emphasis on thing?

I guess I'd better enter a caveat here...I mean no offense whatsoever to anyone.  I most likely have terminology wrong and I may be demonstrating concepts that could piss some people off.  I just wish I knew, for sure, what box I could claim as my own as each time I climb into one I look across the room and see another that I would love to occupy.

@Tribble

I think you have the same issues that quite a few people on Susans have as transgender people who become aware of themselves later in life. Living for so long in one gender and then transitioning really sets us up for a jarring juxtaposition of what we think of as what women are and do and when we examine our own natural mannerisms, interests, hobbies etc we can become confused as to why they don't match up so well and then find we don't have a well defined 'box' as you put it to tick to make our own.

I've given a lot of thought to this awkward dilemma you raise here, technically I should refer myself more as non-binary rather than female, simply because of the position I've been placed in by 40 years of playing in the male gender role. And at times my own feelings swing close to the center of the male female divide, but then slowly slides back towards female as time goes on.

But - At the end of all of these thoughts and feelings I found solace in simply thinking of myself as 'Transgender', while I would love to go through all of the various procedures to present as feminine as I could possibly be, I am equally content to be a Transgender woman with a wife and son who accept me, and a life that I'm content at this stage to lead as a feminine looking 'man' in public ie somewhat stealthed.

so my box is "Happy transgender person"

Take care,

Sonja.

[Maid Marion]

The issue may be that you live in a society that does't recognize a third gender.

https://www.rewire.org/pbs/two-spirited-third-gender/
There are societies that do.

[HappyMoni]

Dear Tribble,

   You know the perfect title for this thread if you were a StarTrek fan would be The Trouble with Tribbles.  Sorry, couldn't resist.
   
   I think your male type interests are things you enjoy. You don't have to change that to be someone else's vision of a woman.  You don't have to wear make up. Now, if you don't fit as male, that is something you have tried in your life and is a known. You have not tried living as a woman if I read your post correctly. Now, do you really expect to feel like a woman when you haven't lived that life? Of course you would have thoughts of being a pretender at first. The example I always give is a job that you really really want. Let's say astronaut! You may picture yourself as one all your life. It is the only job that fits you. You get the job. First day, you put on your space suit, show up for work. Technically, you are an astronaut. Do you feel like one the first week on the job? The first month? No, you probably feel like you are invading the space of the real astronauts until you do your training, you have a consistent craving for 'Tang', or do your first space walk. Then you start to feel like you fit. For some folks, maybe they feel like they are a woman even if they have never presented as such. For others, it takes time to find that sense of belonging. I'm not telling you to transition. I'm just saying, don't beat yourself up for not feeling like an astronaut before you have decided to take the job. In June, I will be full time three years. At the start, I so felt like I didn't belong or deserve to be a woman. Like  you said, I many times felt like a freak. I have to say, now I have found me. I know I'm not cis. I fit in to a life as a woman. Each day, with each new experience, I feel more like a woman, but more importantly, I'm just a more happy version of me. Embrace who you are. If you don't know who that is, experiment, get some life experience. Don't let anyone tell you, "Oh you like fast cars, you don't fit the mold, sorry!" Or, "You have to fit in as male or female!" Call BS on that! Be you, and if that's being a 'Tribble," wonderful!

Moni

[HappyMoni]

Sorry, my post may not fit you. I just read  some other of your posts. Bottom line is still self acceptance of course. Your comment on fearing ridicule certainly is familiar. It is tough to overcome.

[Tribble]

Thank you, folks.

"The Trouble with Tribbles"...ooh!  I should have thought of that!

I guess I went a little stream-of-consciousness there.  I tend to do that when I'm thinking aloud.

I have provided some more of my history in my Introduction thread, but I did transition fully in 2003 at the age of 29 and mostly stayed in that role until sometime in mid- to late-2016 when my husband announced his desire for a divorce.  That's just it.  It spent the better part of 13-14 years living in my female role and even married in that role, but I never quite felt comfortable.  I think it's my own perfectionism that prevented me from thinking about my self as a "true" woman.  It was other things, like my dreams and how they differed from the rest of the trans women I knew.

I've always looked up to my older cousin and in the beginning, I tried to emulate her.  She hates skirts and has somewhat more masculine habits and hobbies, but no one would mistake her for a male.

I never did feel comfortable walking around my neighborhood as a woman.  I always felt like something was about to happen.  Meds never really helped with any of that.  And I don't travel outside of area most of the time.

I was mostly stealth to those that didn't know.  I didn't pass perfectly, but I did fly under most people's radars if they weren't paying close attention, but I still always always always felt judged.  Again, meds never helped with that.

I'm not pretty or handsome by any stretch of the imagination.

As soon as I can, I'll be finding a therapist.  Someone that is familiar and comfortable with trans and NB issues.  I need to explore a little more, and transitioning back to male over the last couple of years has not helped.  It's actually my third purge, overall, and I guess I didn't learn from my past mistakes.  As my title suggests, I'm just hopping from one box to another and none seem to fit.

If I do discover that I am a trans woman and not NB, I'm more than happy as a tomboy.  I have no issue with that.  My problem is my internalized feelings of invading others' spaces like I'm not a "true" anything.

Hey, maybe it's the demands that therapists and doctors and SOCs used to put on people that have formed my views the way they have.  Maybe it's society and our current climate here in the US.  Maybe it's that I haven't found exactly who I am yet.

My parents were devasted when I transitioned back to male.  They didn't think that was me.  They felt horrible for me.  My mom even asked me out of the blue a few days ago if I was still interested in GRS and said that she might be able to help make that happen if I was.  I'm pretty sure my dad would have agreed if he were still here.

I guess that's why I posted this thread in the NB section.  Something doesn't feel quite right about any of the roles I've taken on, and yes, I know there are women mechanics and astronauts and machinists and supercar owners and racers and electronic musicians and CG artists and...and...and...

[Tribble]

Sorry, my post may not fit you. I just read  some other of your posts. Bottom line is still self acceptance of course. Your comment on fearing ridicule certainly is familiar. It is tough to overcome.

It's okay.   I've posted a smattering of my history all around the site.  Most of it is in my Intro thread, but one thread could never contain the totality of anyone's life.

Thank you, though.

[CynthiaAnn]

Am I NB?  Am I gender fluid?  Something else, emphasis on thing?

You are a human being with feelings, realize you will have a unique point of view, we all do. We use language here to attempt to describe what's happening around us. Language is malleable, language is contextual, language can be personal.  I agree with @Janes Groove above, relax, explore yourself, and not worry so much about others, listen to the voice in your head, and trust your instincts (that's what I do), and it made me very happy in the end.

I wish you happiness

Cynthia -

[Maid Marion]

This is just wild guess since you didn't really address it, other than saying you like being misgendered, but could your issues involve poor or awkward social interactions?  In the hope that if you changed genders, it would help your lack of social skills?  Could it be that  you want to be the "popular girl?"

[Tribble]

This is just wild guess since you didn't really address it, other than saying you like being misgendered, but could your issues involve poor or awkward social interactions?  In the hope that if you changed genders, it would help your lack of social skills?  Could it be that  you want to be the "popular girl?"

Hi Marion,

I've never really had a desire to be "the popular girl" or person in any way, really.

And having experience with decades of living in both roles, I'm awkward in any social situation, no matter how I'm presenting.  While I don't want to be the star of the room I'm in I do always feel like I'm trying too hard, so part of what your saying might be true, but not quite in the way I'm reading your statement.  I do NOT like group attention, whatsoever.  I love talking to people on an individual basis, but I hate having a room full of people focusing on me.

I do wish, as you'd mentioned above, that we had more of an open mind about gender in our part of the world.  I wish we were more open-minded about individuality and individual expressions of self.  I've cried myself to sleep wondering why what I do with my appearance or body or life in general matters to anyone else and why people are so hung up on it.  If society wasn't so hung up about gender, there's a better than average chance I would have almost no psychological issues at all about myself, or, at least, no more than most other people.  I might feel comfortable presenting however I felt like presenting that day; wearing what I want to wear, talking how I want to talk, liking or doing what I want to like or do.  I'm particularly sensitive to the pressures of society in my daily life and thoughts and I really, really wish I could be more of a free-spirited person.  Deep down, I am that free spirit, but my upbringing, while pleasant and nurturing in most aspects, feelings were just not really discussed in my immediate family.

For example, I finally talked about my own sexuality (pansexual, I guess, but my sexuality doesn't need a label, I'm attracted to who I'm attracted to) with my mom the other morning and she said she didn't need to know any of that.  I've explained to her that if I'd known depression was so pervasive in my family that I might have been better able to deal with my own thoughts and feelings growing up.

I guess what I'm really asking is for anyone that identifies as NB or GNC, how did you come to that realization?  How did you face societal pressure when presenting in no particular gender role at any given time?

When I said "misgendered" above, I did mean when I'm identified as female when I'm presenting male.  Whether it's being correctly gendered or not, I have no idea as that's exactly what I'm trying to explore.

There is a lot about myself that I do know.  I know my sexuality.  I know my interests.  I know my mental and physical abilities.  My main question remaining is my own gender identity.  I do know I'm happier when I'm addressed as a woman and I'm uncomfortable being addressed as a man, but what I'm not sure of is if I'm applying society's views on trans people to my internal thoughts and biases.  I don't think these thoughts about other people.  I'm jealous that others seem to be able to be comfortable with who they are (appearances are not always what they seem, but...), but I don't know if I'm truly uncomfortable with myself because I'm not living the life I need to (male or female or NB or GNC) or if I'm uncomfortable with myself because I feel society sees me as a freak.

Still, that fear of ridicule is always at the forefront of my mind.  For me, it really is worse than death.

[Maid Marion]

I'm awkward in any social situation, no matter how I'm presenting.

This is a very important point.  Gender, sexual preference, and the ability to interact socially are three separate things.
Though transitioning often makes socializing harder, I can easily socialize on a platonic basis with either GGs or males.  I can talk  about cooking, gardening, clothes shopping, home repair and sports.

[Tribble]

I'm awkward in any social situation, no matter how I'm presenting.

This is a very important point.  Gender, sexual preference, and the ability to interact socially are three separate things.
Though transitioning often makes socializing harder, I can easily socialize on a platonic basis with either GGs or males.  I can talk  about cooking, gardening, clothes shopping, and sports.

My brother got all of my dad's genes when it comes to talking.  I seem to have received my mom's.  She's pretty awkward, too, and talks as little as possible.

It's funny, I can talk and talk and talk and I'm perfectly comfortable on the phone with whomever I'm talking to, but as soon as you plop me down in a real-life social gathering, unless it's a subject that I'm really interested in or have some measure of knowledge about, I'm quiet as a mouse.  The gatherings I've gone to in recent years have been more painful than staying home alone, even in groups of people that are exceptionally non-judgemental and accepting.

You may have touched on one of the reasons I'm uncomfortable in groups of women, though.  I don't share many of their life experiences.  I don't like cooking, I get hot and I tend to "glisten" and get tunnel vision when clothes shopping and even if I didn't get my dad's conversational abilities, I was the beneficiary of most of his interests and very few of my mom's.

Social interactions are just one more issue I need to work on in therapy, but that's more of a skill thing than an identity thing.

[Maid Marion]

You may want to consider the possibility of autism, a social awkwardness that has a genetic component.  You and your mom.  Does it extend further along that bloodline?

[Tribble]

You may want to consider the possibility of autism, a social awkwardness that has a genetic component.  You and your mom.  Does it extend further along that bloodline?

I've considered this but have always wondered if I was just grasping at another straw, trying to find another label or "box" that fit.  It doesn't appear to extend beyond me and, to a point, my mom, but I just don't know.

I have friends that are on the autism spectrum and I've heard them explain that they were delighted to hear of their official diagnosis as it finally explained why they thought or acted the way they did, and I can truly identify with that feeling.

But, kind of like me feeling like I'm invading LGBT spaces online even if I've been in same-sex and hetero relationships before and have always considered myself trans in the past, I feel like I would somehow be invading that space, as well.  Somehow, I don't feel like I deserve to be included.

Thank you for taking some time out of your day to talk about these issues.  I do appreciate it.

[Maid Marion]

There are online tests for autism. 

LGBTQ spaces.  You will feel unwelcome if you don't match up with the right space.  In particular, some spaces are quite unwelcoming of those who don't think the way they do.

[Tribble]

Thank you, Marion.  I will have a look.

[Tribble]

I've just had a somewhat abstract thought that may or may not help explain some of my situation to some people.

Much like The NeverEnding Story, I need a name.  I need a name for my box.  Whether it is me that names that box or Bastian, I need a name for it.  I so desperately want a box to live in, even if it doesn't act as a physical barrier to being whatever I am or want to be.  This box, even a Universe-sized box, needs a name.  Until I find a name for my box, I will never know what I am, I will never find out what my goal actually is.  I will be forever lost and searching until I am no more.

I love wandering, but I don't want to be lost anymore.

[Maid Marion]

I brought up autism  because of your question, and the walls of text that followed.  While many people are "a little bit autistic," what you did isn't normal.  Rather, they may indicate black/white thinking, where someone has trouble with concepts that involve shades of gray.

You know people diagnosed with autism.  Quite likely you aren't anything like them, as a characteristic of autism is that everyone is different.  There is no way of predicting what someone with autism will be good at, or what issues they will have besides social ones.  Rather, exhaustive testing may be needed to figure that out. 

Doctors and Janitors.  Both those professions have people with autism that can do their job.  Is social skill all that important for a surgeon that does GCS?  Or is it better to be able to tune out the world and do the job at hand?