We’ve heard of the children of DES, what about the children of Soy?

[Sno]

Hi all,

Knowing the depth of knowledge that resides in this forum, I have a question - the impacts of DES in utero are well documented, researched and studied. Does anyone know of equivalents for soy fed premature infants?

I was exclusively fed soy formula (in the dark ages, before any kind of treatments were done to the beans to reduce their estrogenic effect.

As a result, from the materials that I have found, I may have been exposed to a typical daily dose of phytoestrogens that could be up to 5 equivalent birth control pills, per day, all week for at least a year or more.

I was also premature, so this exposure also happened in the equivalent of the third trimester. I am keen to read any research that may have been done as a longitudinal study, or if there is any active research ongoing that is looking for participants..

Much love


Rowan

[HughE]

The mother of a transgender child messaged me a while ago on Facebook, asking whether soy could be the culprit. She'd apparently consumed quite a lot of soy while she was pregnant. Other than that I don't know, sorry.

[Sno]

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for jumping in so quickly - your blank mirrors my 'don't know either' - not even sure in the current political climate that research is even going on, especially as it involves the soy industry who are almost as powerful as the NRA.

Oh well, time to keep looking


Rowan

[josie76]

My only guess is no it wouldn't do much. Here are some observations:
Japan has a long history of soy based foods being a primary staple yet does not appear to have any more trans people than the normal world population.
1. Plant estrogens are much weaker at cell receptor activation than human estradiol.
2. In utero the mother's body has very high levels of estrogen through most of the pregnancy.
3. Estrogen is not in own to influence gender neurology on it's own. The current science on gender formation shows that male hormones are needed as the triggering event of masculization even though estrogen plays a part.
4. DES causes prevention of masculization by effectively blocking androgen receptors in the cells at low blood concentrations. Estrogen does not do this.
5. Concerns about soy plant estrogens revolve about later in life when there can be some estrogen receptor activation.

[Sno]

Hi Josie.

Soy is not a primary infant food in Asia, and as such it is actively warned against being an infant food, even in countries with an active soy lobby. Those foods explicitly now say 'not for premature infants' + warnings that have only appeared in the last 15 years or so. This is due to the well understood testosterone surge in infant boys being by endocrine disruption mechanisms, affecting their development.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2661347/#!po=20.4545

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3443604/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3261982/?report=reader

Also remember that 'modern' soy formula is manipulated to reduce the isoflavin content (mainly through heat degradation), and new research on the actions around endocrine disruption and epigenetics.

It's only just coming tolightnthat there are these processes, and we do not understand them well enough. The simple fact remains that without soy formula those many years ago, i'd Be dead.

Rowan

[Sno]

For any one who is curious... soy formula affects the reproductive systems of infants.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/03/180312150509.htm

Rowan

[Ricki Wright]

I have been unable to find any study done on soy that is equivalent to the study on DES that found men are 30 times (not 30%...30 TIMES!) more likely to be transgender. Being one of those amab people whose mother took DES, I find truth in that study. I am biased however.

I attribute the purported higher percentage of people admitting being transgender to the shift in our culture. It is safer (yet still very far from safe) for transgender people to be who they are. Information is also much more widely available, and people like me who type "Holy S&*% I am a girl!" into google find out about dysphoria and such. Keep in mind, "transgender" when I was growing up meant "People who go to Cher concerts".

Doing a soy study would be difficult due to the different types of soy, and just how much soy is in our food now. My wife is allergic so finding foods she can eat has been an eye opener. Doing a "before soy invaded" vs "after" would also be hard due to the lack of people willing to say they were transgender at all back in the day. Accurate numbers are impossible. Finding a group of pregnant women to ingest large amounts of soy to see if their kids are transgender may also be problematic.

If something is found about this, please share!!!

Ricki

[Sno]

I have been unable to find any study done on soy that is equivalent to the study on DES that found men are 30 times (not 30%...30 TIMES!) more likely to be transgender. Being one of those amab people whose mother took DES, I find truth in that study. I am biased however.

I attribute the purported higher percentage of people admitting being transgender to the shift in our culture. It is safer (yet still very far from safe) for transgender people to be who they are. Information is also much more widely available, and people like me who type "Holy S&*% I am a girl!" into google find out about dysphoria and such. Keep in mind, "transgender" when I was growing up meant "People who go to Cher concerts".

Doing a soy study would be difficult due to the different types of soy, and just how much soy is in our food now. My wife is allergic so finding foods she can eat has been an eye opener. Doing a "before soy invaded" vs "after" would also be hard due to the lack of people willing to say they were transgender at all back in the day. Accurate numbers are impossible. Finding a group of pregnant women to ingest large amounts of soy to see if their kids are transgender may also be problematic.

If something is found about this, please share!!!

Ricki

Hi Ricki - yes of course there is significant variation in the varietals of soy and more importantly in the composition and methods of production of the various formulae - but. (And there it is). Something caused the FDA amongst other organisations to put a blanket 'don't feed exclusively to infants' and 'do not feed to preterm babies'. These organisations rarely issue such statements without very strong evidence and/or arguments. If it's the former, then some studies have already been done.

There is also a 'window' of time when that advice wasn't there, and infants were extensively fed soy products that do not have the phytoestrogen reducing process that is in place now - I am one from that window, and there are no doubt, many more like myself.

There is a primary restructuring of the brain, based on hormones in infant-hood, very similar to the secondary one we know about called puberty - DES alters the underlying structures of the brain, and there is evidence that is epigenetically passed on. It's effectively the same process, but in utero. It's a fascinating topic, but maybe one of those things that we'll never know.

Rowan

[Linde]

Something caused the FDA amongst other organisations to put a blanket 'don't feed exclusively to infants' and 'do not feed to preterm babies'. These organisations rarely issue such statements without very strong evidence and/or arguments. If it's the former, then some studies have already been done.

Rowan

The FDA would issue these warnings when the calculated risk from animal studies would warrant a warning like this.  It is very likely that no human data was available, and animal data was inconclusive!

[Doreen]

My mother insists it was the soy milk I consumed as an infant till 2 that 'created me' the way I am.

Yes mother, I have mullerian structures because of soy... that apparently had precognitive effects.  Turns out I was born with them.   Yes, I'm a variant of swyers ... funny I always thought that was congenital not from soy.

Oh my ehlers danlos hyperflexibility?  That was soy too.

People love to blame things on something because that's what their mind latches onto.
Did soy make me ?  Nope. 

She denies ever using birth control.   I far more suspect her own use of DES because it was around that time, dad had just landed in prison, you just found out you were pregnant with your 4th, and got in a bad car accident.  I don't blame you..  but it wasn't 'soy' lol.