Some political incorrectness, or, Ann smacks the hornets' nest

[Ann W]

Something came to me recently, and it seems so important that I must share it. It's very politically incorrect. But unless we want to start censoring speech, including our own, we have to allow such thoughts to be expressed. I'm not afraid of responses. I've been flogged before; just not about this.

Coming out to myself late in life means my femininity was deeply buried. It leaked out around the edges, of course, which led to some odd experiences over the years. I liken its emergence to that of a flower growing in a garbage dump, pushing up from the soil through layers of trash to find the sun and bloom at last. I always knew there was a strong feminine streak in me; I just didn't know what it portended.

Since coming out, giving my femininity free rein has been a work in progress. I always believed that, given time, it would emerge on its own; and it's happening. Confidence has been key. Still, the male habits of thought, attitude, etc., acquired over a lifetime are hard to lose. It's more a question of inaction than action, abstinence rather than indulgence, passive rather than active. And that takes time. At times, it's very frustrating.

I pray a lot. Sometimes, thoughts come that I attribute to a spiritual source. Such an experience figured significantly in my awakening, two years ago. One of the things that has been impressed on me for years, since long before I woke up, is that control is a major issue for me. Growing up with an abusive parent probably had something to do with this; but the cause doesn't really matter. What matters is, it's a problem. "Letting go and letting God" has been a constant lesson I have kept failing to learn.

When I prayed for help releasing my femininity, this theme returned, center stage. There is a link between surrender of control and release of femininity, for me at least. Accepting this led me to further speculation about the nature of femininity in general; and this is where I will outrage some people.

While every culture has gender roles, there are recurrent themes of gender expression that are apparently more or less constant across cultures. It is natural to hypothesize that these are rooted in biology. Yes, there are outliers, and there is variance within each gender; and no one should be barred from any career path, etc., that they feel they need for personal fulfillment. That goes without saying, I hope.

But I think the "patriarchy" is a biological phenomenon. I think temporal power structures will always be male, because biologically males dominate the physical sphere. It is their natural function. This puts women at a disadvantage when competing with men; but the flaw is in thinking this dynamic can be changed. I don't think it can be; and I think trying to do so is irredeemably destructive.

Generalizing from my own path: to be feminine is to follow a different paradigm. Our gifts lie along a different path. When we compete with men within what must be male power structures, we seriously risk losing a part of ourselves. In fact, it may be more than risk; it may be unavoidable.

I know this idea will be regarded by many as unbelievably retro and unenlightened, raising all the horrors that the feminist movement has sought to escape and eradicate. And horrors there were, and still are. Men abuse their prerogatives, and women suffer. But just because a path leads out of a bad situation does not make it a good path; sometimes it's worse. It's possible to cut one's nose off to spite one's face, to throw out the baby with the bath. Those phrases are proverbial for a reason: they represent something we, as human beings, are wont to do, again and again. We overreact, and end up in a worse place than the place where we began.

I deal with a good deal of anxiety on a daily basis. My economic situation is unstable; for the first time in my life, I'm going to have to pay my taxes piecemeal, which means interest and penalties. My hold on my job seems precarious; I have to fight to resist seeking reaffirmation from my new boss, who has already commented on my perpetual insecurities. This is my current challenge in releasing control: feeling myself at the mercy of the four winds, and letting go.

In my recent small successes along this line, I have been rewarded with glimpses of the increase in femininity of expression I was led to expect. And it is glorious. I wonder if the root of the problem that feminism represents is our loss, as a society and a culture, of a spiritual foundation. Believing that we are abandoned and on our own in a hostile universe would lead to exactly the sort of thinking and situation in which we find ourselves today. Thank goodness, it isn't true.

[KimOct]

Hi Ann - since the silence is deafening I will jump in.  I also tend to smack the hornets' nest sometimes.  Usually my issue is discussing being stealth but I won't go there.  Just saying I get it regarding taking the unpopular position.

To a large extent I disagree with you however not entirely.  I was raised in the 1970s by a mother that was the model of the women's movement.  A former stay at home mother that went back to school and got an MBA and then got divorced.

I was raised on the concept of women's equality and still believe it.  I believe that holds true in education, work place, intellect etc etc.

I do see SOME differentiation regarding personal relationship dynamics.  Love, sex, friendships those are all much different things than those I mentioned above.  Obviously each individual is unique regardless of gender but I do think some personality characteristics and as I said relationship dynamics are typical of one gender or another.  Even those that are gender non conforming or NB probably share aspects of each gender.

Kind of rambling my stream of consciousness.   Just wanted to point out that while I disagree with a significant part of your post I do agree with portions.

Starting interesting conversations here is important so that we can consider many steps of this journey.  Sometimes we open a pandora's box when doing so but I for one appreciate when the effort is made.

[Ann W]

Thank you, beautiful Kim.

I'm just expressing my thinking here; I'm not seeking converts, or anything like that. If other women disagree with me, that's fine; we all have our own perspectives.

I am implementing my vision in my own life. I have been spending a lot of time discussing and defending trans issues with social conservatives, on line. I've stopped, cold turkey. I used to spend a lot of time doing this; it has been important to me, and meaningful. My political views are conservative, although my social orientation, obviously, is not. Since I understand both worlds, I felt I had something of a geas to act as a bridge.

A journey begins with a single step. Feminism has damaged men in our culture; masculinity has been under assault for decades. Men no longer know who they are. They are becoming pajama boys, wasting their energies in fantasy football and pornography. Popular culture has told them, effectively, that it's bad to be a man. Grade school teachers have been telling parents that their little boys need Ritalin, for no other reason than the fact that they don't act like little girls. The phrase, "toxic masculinity," is a direct assault on being male, all dissembling to the contrary.

Women created this. I wasn't a part of it; but, as a woman, I can do something to ameliorate it.

Don't misunderstand me: I do not see myself as subservient or submissive. I do not relinquish my free will. If a man gave me an order, I would politely decline.  But I have yielded the field that men are designed for to men. I have forsaken disputation with, argument with, even teaching, men. On Disqus, where I've been representing as a trans woman, I stated my new position; and some man tore me to shreds over it. I did not respond. The value of anything I could possibly explain to a man is far outweighed by the value of my deference. It is my deference that allows a man to find and reclaim his rightful prerogative: to protect, to provide, to battle the world at large and bring it to heel. That is what men do. We are fashioned for a different purpose.

I see this as a personal "mitzvah," an obligation that I assume in order to promote the public good. It's not a religious thing. For example: As part of this, I don't compete with men anymore. If men are speaking, I remain silent. It hasn't happened yet, but if men ask my opinion about something, I plan to politely decline to give it. I'm not saying my approach can't be improved; but it's the best I can fashion, at this time. Women have deprived men of their safe space to be men. Since I am a woman, I feel I must do what I can to restore it. All I have is my own little life.

I will admit to one exception.  All of my life, I have been an enthusiastic Scrabble player, playing at the tournament level (yes, there really are officially sanctioned Scrabble tournaments). So far, I permit myself this one venue in which I compete with men. I may decide that this indulgence is too great a concession; we'll see. But, for the moment, outside this one venue, I have relinquished the field. I want men to find themselves again.

[SadieBlake]

It's hard to imagine disagreeing with you more.

First, on whatever axis you choose there is nothing inherently superior about XY chromosome / male identified people. Sure, in the sportsball realm if the only thing you value is strength / muscle / power then testosterone (not, notably the fact of being male) affords somewhat faster growth of muscle as well as greater ultimate muscle bulk.

In endurance sports it's not at all clear that men are superior and there are plenty of competitions that are played on an equal field and have been won outright by women and this is after you allow that the societal narrative prevents most women from even trying in these areas. Examples: the Badwater 135 race, arguably the hardest ultramarathon endurance race has been won twice by a woman, the first free ascent of El Capitan in Yosemite was accomplished by a woman, those are a couple I'm familiar with, I'm sure there are others.

In any case both survival and excellence in this world today depends principally on intellect, not speed or strength. I would never argue that men and women are the same, (that would have been the rallying cry of second-wave feminism) of course we have different characteristic strengths and weaknesses, however there is absolutely no evidence that in raw intelligence men outstrip women in a level playing field.

To suggest that patriarchy is biological determinism is simply wrong. Women still struggle under the weight of gender-driven assault and harassment and this is true across nearly all areas of modern culture. There is good reason to believe that patriarchy came along with agrarian societies (and that in addition to being generally more egalitarian, pre-agrarian societies generally recognized more than binary genders).

Lastly, the assertion that feminism has harmed men doesn't stand up well. Feminism is simply the belief that people should be treated equally and if it has harmed anyone, that's been women of color and other minorities. I suggest you read some of the work by Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw or have a look at her TED talk "The urgency of intersectionality" Equally good would be TED: "we should all be feminists"  by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

Feminism is slowly moving away from that; like all social change, it takes time.

[Ann W]

Hi, SadieBlake,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I am a spiritual person; so I believe there is something beyond the merely physical, and that the spiritual is more fundamental and that the physical is an expression of the spiritual. I understand that this is my own view, and I don't seek to impose it on anyone else.

Of course, I believe in equality; but I believe in equality of opportunity, not equality of outcomes. Men and women are not the same. We have different gifts, and different avenues to fulfillment.

If you think competing with men is the avenue toward fulfillment, then, have at it, girl. Go for it. I do not. This is my life, and this is how I choose to live it.

[SadieBlake]

I'm Buddhist, last I looked that was considered spiritual. Yes there's more to the world than mere physicality.

I don't compete with men, my feelings run to lesbian separatist and if I routinely outperform men it's not something that leads to fulfillment, that comes from deeper places.

[Maid Marion]

I belong to a garden club of more than 150 members.  Surprisingly enough, I am one of the more physically able members of the club, despite being 5' 3", 110 lbs, and over 50!  And I have an office job!  Turns out that most of the big tall men have health issues that make it hard for them to dig out shrubs, like I do.  I like to donate my unwanted plants to new homes.  Being small, I plan what I do, and try to use proper technique, rather than brute force to get things done.

[CynthiaAnn]

The hornets are buzzing around, the nest lays on the ground next to my feet, but they sound more congenial today,  I like what Maid Marion posted above.

Later in life I've found the more I try and do away with preconceived notions of what people are, or what they should be, the happier I am, and the better I get along with just about everyone. It's kind of hard to do, when you are essentially bombarded with messaging about gender from such an early age, and then especially when transitioning later, it's like overthinking to the max. There was time where I really got into gender theory, and read books on the topics, and thought I was fairly educated in such things, only to be humbled. The power of the individual and creating one's own reality can not be underestimated...

vive la difference

Cynthia -

[Ann W]

I'm Buddhist, last I looked that was considered spiritual.

"You are the first woman character who is her own person, who can assert her own personality without robbing someone of theirs. You're a break-through lady for us. We're picking up your option. You'll be with us for another year. Congratulations." – Tootsie (1982)

My statement about believing in spirituality was meant to explain my orientation, not question the value of yours. Spirituality means different things to different people. All I meant to convey was that I think there is something beyond the physical that makes us who we are.

The hornets are buzzing around, the nest lays on the ground next to my feet, but they sound more congenial today,  I like what Maid Marion posted above.

I like what she said, too. She always seems to have something positive and gentle to say.

I think I mentioned in my first post that I believe there is great variance with each gender. I also believe, however, that there is some quality to being female that males do not share, and vice versa. I don't know that I can even come close to defining it; but I do think we get some key in looking at gender roles that appear to be cross-cultural.

I hope I've stated sufficiently that I am not being dogmatic. This is my life, not everyone's life. I have long believed that women are keyed to a different power dynamic than men are, and that this serves a purpose, both for the continuation of the race and for the progressive enlightenment of mankind.

Although I am not a member of any Abrahamic religion – I am, in fact, a Neopagan – I have a lot of respect for Jewish tradition. The Kabbalah teaches that women are on a higher spiritual plane than men are, and it is commonly accepted, apparently, in Orthodox circles, that women are naturally more intelligent than men – although, again, any given man can be more intelligent than any given woman. This fact gives rise to a compelling question: If this is a long-held Jewish belief, why would St. Paul direct Christian women not to teach, not to speak, etc. (I Cor. 14:33-35)? Why would he counsel Christian wives to submit to their husbands in everything, "as to the Lord" (Eph. 5:22-24)? How can this make sense?

The answer is poetic. In 2 Cor. 12:9, St. Paul writes that, when he prayed that his "thorn of the flesh" be taken from him, the answer he received was, in part, "My power is made perfect in weakness." In other words, when we are weak, Spirit can then be strong in us; and it is the presence of Spirit in our lives that transforms us, "from one degree of glory to another." Under this dynamic, it makes perfect sense for the stronger to be subordinated to the weaker, for the progressive enlightenment of both. The man is thus given room to grow, supported by his wife, who is something of a spiritual anchor; but she can only be this if she stays on course, herself.

Women have long been a symbol of inspiration to men. Women have reacted against their pedestalization by men, believing that this trivialized them; and it can. But there is a more sublime element, which, if present, is part of the man's spiritual awakening.

None of this to say that we don't have our own issues. 

But if a woman wants to be a politician, a fighter pilot, or a CEO in charge of a thousand men, that's her business and she should not face artificial obstacles to following her path. Again, this is my own life. In sharing my thoughts, I am simply sharing myself, my insights.

EDIT: This properly should be added to a previous post, but I can no longer do so.

I mentioned that I was withholding playing competitive Scrabble from my mitzvah. The more I think about it, the more it seems like a bad idea. So, I've done away with the exception. My days of competing against men in any venue are over.

[jkredman]

Hi Anne;

I had to save your post and think about it a while.  So here is where I am at the moment.   

I agree with your assessment that society, for as long as it's been documented, is patriarchal / driven by cis-males.  In the professional world there is a concept of male privilege.

In my experience male privilege is real.  My feminity, even though I hadn't admitted to the conflict within me, got in the way of my professional advancement.  I related better to the women on our team that the men supposedly leading us.

I worked 13 years for a woman.  I greatly respected her knowledge, capabilities, and professionalism.  Towards the end, some of her male peers wanted to force her out and wanted my help.   When I wouldn't play their game, I was forced out.

So while I agree with many of your observations, I can't agree that it is the correct order of things, nor can I agree that we as a species can't evolve to something more equitable and better.

I've always been trans; irrespective of all the years I fought it and tried to hide it.  Out of that experience I now believe we are some of the most insightful, loving, & understanding people on the planet.  Who, other than us, truly can see / feel from both genders?  I'd like to think that in time we are not only accepted and respected, but perhaps; sought out for a perspective that only we can feel & know.

I, unfortunately have to agree with your assessment.  I hope & pray that society can grow such that we all see our world differently.

Kate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ann W]

Thank you, Kate, for sharing your insights and experience. I know you refused to cooperate with the men at your job because you believed it would be wrong, and not out of any self-promotion; but it was a noble act. Despite the fact that you were forced out as a result, you kept your integrity, which is far, far more important.

I'm not preaching a gospel; I'm just sharing things that I've seen and how I'm applying them in my own life.

It didn't occur to me until just a few moments ago, but I see trouble ahead. When natural impulses of all kinds are repressed, they don't simply go away. They fester and eventually emerge in destructive ways, sometimes explosively so. In the trans community, we have our own special experiences of this.

In the systematic and unrelenting attack on masculinity that I see stretching back to the early days of feminism, men have been aggressively encouraged to repress their natural impulses, good as well as bad. In some ways, I think they no longer know how to be men -- or, at least, many of them find themselves in that situation. That doesn't mean the natural male tendencies have gone away; and I see no reason to doubt that, as a result, we will see an increase in particularly male forms of bad behavior. I'd like to see the statistics on rape and spousal abuse over the last several decades; I wonder if they have increased.

There are two reasons I am taking the action I am, in my own life. On the one hand, as I said, it is a mitzvah, an attempt to do what I can to give the men I encounter safe space to rediscover who they are. On the other, I believe that taking such action will greatly accelerate the development of my femininity and its expression. One altruistic motivation, one more -- is "selfish" the word? But not contradictory or inconsistent with each other. 

[KimOct]

Ann - once again I want to thank you for posting this, not because I am in agreement with MOST of your views rather because I think it takes courage to speak one's mind while anticipating a backlash.  That is admirable.

Also I want to acknowledge others such as Sadie that express their strong disagreement with civility.  If only this was more common in society today.

Now that I have complimented everyone    (sincerely ) I have to say I was shocked reading the following excerpt from one of your posts above. 

The value of anything I could possibly explain to a man is far outweighed by the value of my deference. It is my deference that allows a man to find and reclaim his rightful prerogative: to protect, to provide, to battle the world at large and bring it to heel. That is what men do. We are fashioned for a different purpose.

The stereotypical traits of men and women both have their merits and shortcomings but I do think showing men deference has led to disastrous results for centuries.  The world has been a patriarchal place for all of history and men as a group have sought to maintain this power structure as most in powerful positions are wont to do.  Very few in power wish to acquiesce that power.

Where I agree with you is more how we relate to each other socially.  Chivalrous gestures by men, women being the gentler of the two in a hetero relationship.  Stuff like that but when it comes to decisions, life choices, business etc etc I think women tend to have better judgement than men who tend to act with less deliberation.

I do think your thoughts regarding how men have been 'de-fanged' for lack of a better word does have a little bit of merit but far less than the extent of your view.

Lastly I do find it interesting ( I do not mean that as a pejorative word ) to meet trans women that are politically conservative.  I am OK with some moderates that are well intention-ed and honorable but the direction that much of the Right has went in recent years is alarming.

Living as trans has opened my eyes to marginalized groups more than I realized possible and my own cancer and heart disease and financial woes have allowed me to see both sides of society.  I was privileged and now I am not, but I am far wiser IMHO.   

Thank you for an enlightened discussion.

[jkredman]

It didn't occur to me until just a few moments ago, but I see trouble ahead. When natural impulses of all kinds are repressed, they don't simply go away. They fester and eventually emerge in destructive ways, sometimes explosively so. In the trans community, we have our own special experiences of this.

On this point I totally agree with you.

What's really bad, about it, is this:  It's not just me that is at risk.  It's those who are close to me; my wife (who has struggled since I came out, but can't walk out on her 25 + year partner), our daughters, and all those who chose to accept me irrespective of how I identify or present.

Scarry!!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Linde]

@ Ann W
All your nice spirituality of strong XY persons and XX persons of some lesser value who have to serve he XY guys, has a big flaw!  Because with your boxed in thinking you put people like I under the bus (the same as the current government is doing.  I am not XX, but I am also not XY, I am a multiple number of X'ses in front of a single Y (and  lot of other mutations).  I tried to live the "superior" life of a man for many years, but eventually failed bitterly in doing so, i am now living a real superior life, which is that of a woman!
But my question is, where would intersex people who are not either men nor women fall onto your value system?  If you see men as being so superior, why would any intersex person decide to be a woman but not a man?  I mean, we are the lucky ones, we can decide what sex we want to be, or?

[Ann W]

I have to say I was shocked reading the following excerpt from one of your posts above. 

The value of anything I could possibly explain to a man is far outweighed by the value of my deference. It is my deference that allows a man to find and reclaim his rightful prerogative: to protect, to provide, to battle the world at large and bring it to heel. That is what men do. We are fashioned for a different purpose.

The stereotypical traits of men and women both have their merits and shortcomings but I do think showing men deference has led to disastrous results for centuries.  The world has been a patriarchal place for all of history and men as a group have sought to maintain this power structure as most in powerful positions are wont to do.  Very few in power wish to acquiesce that power.

The abuses and outright horrors are easy to see; not so readily apparent are their absence. How many male-female relationships have worked under patriarchy? which has been the nearly ubiquitous pattern of social organization throughout recorded history. And, is it this working that has enabled the race to survive? In other words, have the abuses been the exception, rather than the rule?

I have long believed that men have a built-in weakness where women are concerned. No, not all men – or, at least, some men have effectively silenced theirs (though I think it festers beneath the surface, and continually seeks release). And it's not  merely sexual; it's spiritual. Evil men seek to dominate it; good men listen to it. They want to do so. The natural impulse of all living things is to become. With human beings, it is seldom all one way or all the other; but the desire and trend of humanity is to become. Two steps forward, one step back, more often than not, it seems.

There are different kinds of power. I think I spoke to that, previously. Not different theaters of power, but different kinds of power. The kind that the patriarchy is concerned with is very much the lesser.

Lastly I do find it interesting ( I do not mean that as a pejorative word ) to meet trans women that are politically conservative.  I am OK with some moderates that are well intention-ed and honorable but the direction that much of the Right has went in recent years is alarming.

Most people seem to misunderstand the word "conservative" as I use it. I definitely do not mean it in the social sense; I have spent a great deal of time struggling with social conservatives on various websites. My conservatism is political. I embrace the philosophical framework of the Constitution. That framework has been under assault for a very long time, and that document – and with it, not the form, but the meaning, of our political system – teeters on the brink. However, with my new approach to how I'm living my life, I have left that field. I'm done. I doubt I'll ever vote again. Things have become so unbalanced in one direction that extraordinary measures must be taken in the other to try to bring balance back; and all I have is my own life to work with.

There are other politically conservative trans people, but they generally keep their mouths shut. I banned myself from ->-bleeped-<- a few months ago; I got tired of being savaged.

By the way, I don't know if you noticed my little edit, above, but I have given up competitive Scrabble, something I have enjoyed since the 1980s and which I planned to enjoy after semi-retiring: traveling the country to various tournaments, engaging in social as well as competitive activities. Although my mitzvah is self-imposed, it is not undertaken whimsically. I thought to make this one exception to competing with men; but, the more I thought about it, the more of a compromise and contradiction it seemed. I gave it up today, for good. That really hurt, more than giving up discussing things political and things trans online. I'm taking this as seriously as I know how to do, because it's that important to me; but it's just me, just my life.

@ Ann W
All your nice spirituality of strong XY persons and XX persons of some lesser value who have to serve he XY guys, has a big flaw!  Because with your boxed in thinking you put people like I under the bus

But my question is, where would intersex people who are not either men nor women fall onto your value system?  If you see men as being so superior, why would any intersex person decide to be a woman but not a man?  I mean, we are the lucky ones, we can decide what sex we want to be, or?

Please, please, let me reiterate: I am not preaching a gospel. I am not seeking converts. I'm just expressing a view and how I am implementing it in my own life. My view, as well as myself, are works in progress. I don't have all the answers. I have a guess or two as to intersex people, but only guesses; but they are so rude (in the sense of unfinished) that mentioning them would be premature, and, besides, it would be pointless to do so in a combative atmosphere. As to gender fluid and agender individuals, I haven't a clue. I'm not writing a systematic theology; I'm brainstorming, passing along some neat things I see -- or, at least, I think they're neat.

By the way, I posted this material in the MTF section for a reason. I only express my ideas with other women. I have stopped participating in all public discussion of controversial topics that includes men; Susan's is the only online venue where I am still talking about anything. But if men enter this discussion, I am done.

Where did you pick up the notion that I think females are of lesser value? Is that stated anywhere, in anything I have said? It isn't even implied. An automobile's engine is not its steering wheel, but both are needed to make it function; one is not more important than the other. Furthermore, I serve no one. No man is my master. I think I said earlier that if a man gave me an order, expecting me to obey because I'm a woman, I would decline. Marriage, however, is, in my opinion, more complicated.

EDIT: I'm finished with this topic. I've said all that I can say, and further elaboration at this time would be counterproductive. Thanks to all who responded! I have appreciated your comments.