Questions about bi-genderfluidity, transition, and generally figuring myself out

[ScramBrain]

"I'm creating this thread to avoid derailing another discussion and to have a space for a flow of consciousness as I explore my gender and sexuality. I've introduced myself in another thread, which can be found here: [https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,182328.80.html].

In this new space, I want to dive deeper into my thoughts and experiences. I'm aware my posts might be lengthy, and I'm still learning the forum rules. Please guide me if I inadvertently breach any boundaries.

I am a 21-year-old male college student in trans-friendly California, living with my elderly parents. Previously, I've told them I wasn't interested in transgender issues, mainly because I felt technology hadn't advanced enough for a fully functional transition, which I thought was necessary to continue our family lineage. I hadn't considered options like sperm freezing.

In truth, I've always resonated with a socially feminine role, despite my interest in typically male activities. Since pre-puberty, I've envied the clothing options available to females, particularly swimsuits and tight sports attire. I've been uncomfortable with my male genitalia, wishing I could be a girl. However, the perceived limitations of transition technology made me settle for being a straight male.

My perspective shifted after talking to someone who underwent a full transition, including vaginoplasty. Their experience resonated with me, highlighting that my primary source of dysphoria is my genitals. This discussion made me more open to considering a low dose of estrogen post-surgery to shape my body, although I'm aware my genetics might limit how close I can get to my ideal body image. I'm open to some feminine physical changes, but I'm concerned about how they might affect my ability to pass as male.

This introspection led me to identify as bi-gender genderfluid. I envision presenting as a softly masculine individual to my parents and as a feminine, bisexual male professionally. In my personal life, I'd like to express myself as a feminine, athletic woman, adjusting my presentation based on social settings. In romantic situations, my presentation would depend on how I first meet someone, with a willingness to adapt based on their interest.

A challenge for me is maintaining a clear gender presentation to avoid being perceived as androgynous, which I've previously found uncomfortable. I'm also hesitant to change my distinctly male name until I feel society and my parents are more accepting.

In the long term, I might return to a more masculine presentation, especially as I age. I'm curious if anyone has had similar experiences and can offer advice.

I don't plan to start transitioning immediately. I want to finish college and establish my career first, around age 25. I'm financially prepared for the transition, with vaginoplasty as the first step to address my genital dysphoria. I'll consult doctors and consider sperm freezing before proceeding. While my parents might initially struggle with my transition, I believe they'll eventually be supportive.

I'd like feedback on this transition plan and any additional considerations I should be aware of. Thanks to everyone here and elsewhere who has helped me understand what I want for my own comfort and happiness. I'm particularly excited about the prospect of wearing leggings and other tight clothing more comfortably post-transition."

[ScramBrain]

Quick amendment! I've gotten a bit further through reading Luna Nyan's HRT thread and think I might see about heavier HRT changes relatively early on in the post-SRS, then taper it off as I near the point I'd want to be at.

Edit: Also just figured out how to modify my posts, instead of a string of corrections and additions of specificity.

[Linde]

If it just the appearance you want, for being able to wear any kind of female clothing, an orchiectomy may be all you need.

For most cases HRT and no testosterone will cause the penis to atrophy pretty dramatically, and it can be hidden pretty well under any clothing.  Hormone wise it would be identical to any person who had SRS, and would cause you to be in the low female range of testosterone.
An orchi is a way less involved and cheaper surgery than any SRS is.

[Jessica]

Hi ScramBrain 🙋‍♀️ Welcome to Susan's Place!  I'm Jessica.
I'm a California girl also!

I see you're new here, so I'll post some links that may help you get better acquainted with the site. Pay attention to the site rules they can be of great help and don't forget the link highlighted red.  It has answers to questions that are commonly asked.  Then join in on a topic you find interesting and learn and share.

Please feel free to stop by the Introductions Forum to tell the members about yourself!

Things that you should read

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[Maid Marion]

Boobs don't do much for passing.  They can be a side effect of meds given to both kids and adults.  It can make things worse by throwing off your top/bottom ratio.  They can be a wonderful cure for dysphoria, which explains why insurance may cover it.

Instead, female mannerisms, if done instinctively, make a far bigger impression. 

You may also want to consider voice training, which can be done with online resources.

Yes, tight clothing will help.  Guys wear much looser clothing than girls. Women are constantly judging other women on their appearance. Choosing good outfits that match your body is an art.

Finally, good grooming and hygiene also helps to project a feminine appearance.

[ScramBrain]

"I don't think I'd want just an orchiectomy; I hardly notice my testicles compared to my penis. However, I still desire some form of sexual pleasure and capability, even if currently experienced alone. In my view, having one set of genitals is preferable to none, despite the annoyance of the male ones. Additionally, I've learned that undergoing SRS after hormones can make a successful surgery more challenging. After seeing others' progress, I'm leaning towards starting with a higher hormone dose for initial changes, then adjusting it to find the right balance.

As hinted in my opening post, I prefer my body to lean towards femininity, especially the lower half, while still maintaining a passable male appearance for my parents and in the workplace. Having small to medium breasts seems appealing, as they would be comfortable, not overly burdensome, and somewhat concealable in male presentation.

Regarding mannerisms, other than my mixed accent, I believe I can adapt to physical behaviors fairly easily, although I'm trying to improve certain habits like slouching in my chair. My hygiene is generally good, but living in an environment with temperatures often above 90 degrees, heavy sweating is a challenge. Strangely enough, I prefer this to overly cold indoor settings.

My ideal female persona is a shy, athletic or semi-athletic woman. I imagine wearing skintight sports short-shorts and a medium or high support sports bra for runs, hikes, and casual sports. I don't swim much but might be more inclined with a feminine body; I've always admired the look of one-piece swimsuits. When presenting as female, I'd likely wear leggings or double-layer shorts/skirts and sports tees.

For comparison, I'm currently broad-shouldered, medium-thin, and somewhat of a semi-nerdy introvert. I become more sociable in comfortable settings and typically wear semi-sporty shorts and tees. I'm active, with a background in soccer, tennis, badminton, and a bit of track.

Since female clothing was mentioned, I find myself jealously admiring clothing models and the styles they can wear. Whoops!"

[Maid Marion]

I was just checking out some Victoria's Secret videos, not for bras and panties, as I'm already have those, but to see how my new waistline compares!  I've been exercising in front of the television, and now have my waistline just below my ribs!

I'd can't wait for the weather to warm up so I can wear shorts again.  I shave my legs and body hair.

[Sno]

Oh my darling, what a tangled web.

From our perspective. We are an alien, and it took a very long time to realise that the humanoid body we currently occupy, can't be made to feel comfortable. And yet, at present we haven't adjusted our hormonal soup ( yes, we know, yet...and yes, we are trying not to transition, because reasons) - and experience here has shown what a dramatic difference that can make to perspectives. And resolve.

So, our advice. If you know who you are, then be you. The rest will follow. For us, working out who we are is a big priority.

We are here, listening and wanting you to feel nurtured and supported.

Rowan

[Linde]

. I like to think that I have pretty decent hygiene, but it can be hard to tell at times because I sweat heavily and live in an environment that is over 90 degrees in the day for a significant part of the year. For some reason I prefer that over the icy-cold indoors.   

   My dream persona and look when passing as female is being a shy gal who is comfortable when in a group of athletic or semi-athletic women. I'd like to be able to get away with wearing skintight sports short-shorts and a medium or high support sports bra for runs and some hiking, as well as non-competitive playing of sports. I don't swim very often, but might be compelled to do more of it with a feminine body, and have always been a fan of the look of one-piece swimsuits. During the rest of the time that I present as female, I'd probably live in leggings or double-layer shorts/skirts and sports tees.

I live in a similar climate, and this means, as a woman, you have to work very hard to maintain appropriate body hygiene. I am lucky, I don't sweat much, and thus have no problem with body odor, but I definitely can smell some people around me! I hardly wear a bra most of the year; sports bras tend to be very warm because they cover larger parts of your upper body. I prefer to wear shirts, like the one in my avatar, that cover my nipples well and allow me to go braless.

The clothing you describe seems pretty warm to me, and it might look great in northern climates. However, in high heat and humidity, you might want to reconsider your fashion choices! It's as hot here where I live, and I tend to wear long, lightweight skirts that allow me to go commando when it's really warm.

Your broad shoulders may be a challenge for living your dream, and you might need to think about adjusting your fashion goals to fit your body better.

[ScramBrain]

I do hardly wear a bra at all during most of the year, sports bras tend to be very warm, because they cover larger parts of your upper body.  I like to wear shirts, as shown in my avatar that cover my nipples pretty well and allow me to not wear a bra.

The clothing you describe seems to be pretty warm to me, and look great in northern climates, but in high heat and humidity conditions, you might reconsider your fashion ideas!

As I said, it is as hot here where I live, and I tend to wear long, light weight skirts that allow me to go commando when it is really warm!
Your broad shoulders may be bad for living your dream, and you might have to think about altering it in such that it fits your body.

Are you talking about just a sports bra without a shirt over it? I see gals do it on a pretty regular basis around me. On the topic of going commando, depending on how well I learn to control my bladder and heal after SRS, I would love to do that all the time when in athletic clothes! I always feel a bit uncomfortable when I see the lines of the underwear sticking through someone's leggings, it just breaks up the shape in a way that the male part of me finds extremely unattractive.

[RobynD]

So very excellent on how you are thinking these things through with all the options. In many respects, I just winged it, including coming out. While I definitely present to the world as feminine, it's not ultrafeminine that often and my tomboy looks rarely get me misgendered. This speaks to the importance in my case at least, of planning how to dress, mannerisms and other things. Still, I believe a lot can be accomplished to be stealthy or present androgynously.

As the post above indicates the atrophy caused by HRT may help the GD about that area. As I have delayed SRS surgery, I'm now thinking that either the atrophy reversed or I overestimated it to begin with. Perhaps the fact that I'm exercising that area more these days reversed it. I'm not sure so I expect that results are not universal.

But back to dress, mannerisms, hair and the like, these can go a long way in achieving the presentation you are looking for and that all can be fluid with effort. You will make mistakes and it won't be perfect, but nothing ever is.

[Linde]

Are you talking about just a sports bra without a shirt over it? I see gals do it on a pretty regular basis around me. On the topic of going commando, depending on how well I learn to control my bladder and heal after SRS, I would love to do that all the time when in athletic clothes! I always feel a bit uncomfortable when I see the lines of the underwear sticking through someone's leggings, it just breaks up the shape in a way that the male part of me finds extremely unattractive.

only tourists would run around in a sports bra without a shirt or camisole over it!  I do commando under knee  long skirts, they fan the air nicely up into the area that wants to be cooled!

[ScramBrain]

I may as well add a few more questions about the whole transition process. As I'm increasingly leaning towards primarily identifying as female for a significant portion of my life, I wonder if I should consider officially changing my name and sex, and think about bathroom usage once I start noticing significant changes from HRT. I think a name change would probably come late in the transition, or at least after my parents have understood and accepted it. That said, I would probably respond to both 'he' and 'she' interchangeably, even when presenting as the opposite.

Related to this, I'm contemplating whether to officially change my sex, and if so, at what point? Given my genetic makeup and how I would present at work and other official situations as male, staying legally male seems practical, even if I present as female otherwise. I'm hesitant about legally being third-gender, considering potential complications in employment and travel outside the Western US, like vacations to Europe.

Bathroom usage also seems manageable if I use the one corresponding to my presentation and dress once my figure is noticeably feminine. However, I am concerned about the potential for confusion and legal issues if I'm caught in a restroom not aligning with my legal sex, especially during times when my appearance might be ambiguous.

The dressing aspect will likely involve a lot of experimentation. If I'm not comfortable with just a sports bra, exploring options like camisoles or crop tops might be fun. I'm open to going commando with most outfits, excluding microskirts, loose pants, or male presentation. I'm drawn to the athletic style and feel it would make me comfortable with myself. Interestingly, I envision female-presenting me being attracted to the type of person male me finds appealing, though I'm still curious about my attractions as a female-presenting individual.

As a guy, I keep my hair relatively long, though not shoulder-length. I don't think having longer, wavy brunette hair would be too odd when presenting as a guy, but it would require more effort in styling.

I'm looking for freely available online resources for learning about mannerisms, voice, and motion. While I don't plan on transitioning for a few years, I'm eager to start understanding and practicing these concepts privately.

I'm not 100% certain about transitioning yet, but I'm heavily leaning towards it and excited about the idea of being the person I haven't been able to be so far. This is a big leap from where I was just a week or two ago. I can't thank the community here and elsewhere enough for helping me think and learn about myself in this new light!

[Maid Marion]

I don't think my wavy gray collarbone length is out of place for either a guy or gal.  If you still have lots of hair at my age why not flaunt it?   

The hardest part of my presentation is my clean long nails.  They break so easily when they get to about 1/4" long.

[Linde]

   a hassle if I travel much beyond the US west coast, such as vacations to Europe.

A third gender should be the very least of your problems in western Europe.  Many countries there are far ahead to the US and have officially recognized a third gender.  it may be different US states where you could run into problem with a third gender identification!
When I changed my gender marker in Florida, the only options I had was male or female!

[VeronicaLynn]

I'm in California too, and have been living somewhat like you described for the last few years. I am transitioning now, though it took me a very long time to decide to start HRT. Guy mode I just wear my hair long and unstyled like a metalhead guy and don't wear makeup or nail polish. That I also dressed like this when I was younger makes it easy to do this around my family without raising eyebrows, though they are on the East Coast and I don't see them much. It would be much harder if I was living with them.

I'm a little more willing to present androgynous, and yeah some people do avoid me. I'm already in my 40's, and am not wanting to go back to presenting masculine though, and if I have to choose one way to present full time, I would pick feminine.

I do think there might be some issues traveling with an ID with an X marker, rather than an M or F. Even if your final destination is somewhere accepting, sometimes it is cheaper to take flights that stop in other cities, and there is always a chance your connecting flight might be cancelled or diverted and all flights grounded for some reason. Renting a motel room or rental car could be problematic. Maybe in 10-20 years people will be used to seeing it, but it's so new, and also will out you to possibly transphobic people that want to see your ID.

[ScramBrain]

I've begun to delve deeper into researching the vaginoplasty process and its prerequisites. This exploration was spurred by a discussion in another thread, which can be found here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,182328.msg1616609.html#msg1616609.

The thread highlighted that the WPATH (World Professional Association for Transgender Health) guidelines don't seem to cater well to non-binary individuals like myself. After reading the relevant sections, I've realized that its recommendations don't align well with my objectives, desired timeline, and how I wish to present myself.

My research indicates that surgeons in my area generally require strict adherence to these guidelines, including the stipulation of living as a female and being on hormones for over 12 months. Since the information in the old thread is outdated, I'm curious about the current stance on these requirements.

Furthermore, I'm wondering if there are any reputable surgeons on the west coast who perform this procedure without strictly enforcing these requirements. I've been extensively researching this, but there are many factors to consider.

While the WPATH guidelines do seem to offer some flexibility, I'm concerned about my eligibility. My plan involves starting on feminizing hormones and gradually increasing my female presentation. However, I'm apprehensive that this approach might not meet the conventional criteria for SRS. I'm hesitant to proceed with the surgery if it mandates a prolonged period of hormone therapy and female presentation beforehand, as my primary goal is to eliminate the male genital bulge for my female clothing choices.

This would be my starting point and a key aspect of my female presentation. As mentioned earlier, the hormones are more about tailoring my body to fit my clothing preferences post-SRS. While being a male-with-vagina is an acceptable outcome for me, having the option for a female presentation would offer greater physical and social comfort."

[VeronicaLynn]

Yes, the WPATH guidelines could be better designed for non-binary people. 

Passing isn't really a requirement for surgery, it sort of was long ago.

What are your objections to starting HRT? I just started on it myself, and I contemplated starting on it for a very long time.

The way I see it, if I don't pass, I'll just continue to live part time as the long haired guy I had been living as, and probably not go bald and will at least be somewhat more feminine. If I do pass, then I might socially and legally transition. Win-win situation, really.

[ScramBrain]

Yes, the WPATH guidelines could be better designed for non-binary people. 

Passing isn't really a requirement for surgery, it sort of was long ago.

What are your objections to starting HRT? I just started on it myself, and I contemplated starting on it for a very long time.

The way I see it, if I don't pass, I'll just continue to live part time as the long haired guy I had been living as, and probably not go bald and will at least be somewhat more feminine. If I do pass, then I might socially and legally transition. Win-win situation, really.

   The way I figure, the genitals are my biggest bit of dysphoria, and will let me dress as I feel comfortable instead of the awkwardness of shaping up to be more feminine, but not being able to wear properly the sort female bottomwear I would probably use and have dreamed of wearing for most of my life. I'd feel much more comfortable to start off being seen as a guy without a bulge than a woman with a penis, if that makes any sense.

   If you look back at the timeline I'm thinking of, it would also be easier socially and emotionally with regard to my parents seeing me change. If one day I visit (which I would probably have to do quite often.), and I simply lack a bulge, but dress as my normal male self, they either wouldn't notice (one or both has degrading eyesight), or they might notice but not be sure, or be too polite to ask. It'd get them thinking, and as I feminize via hormone (or alternatively decide I'm alright staying male-with-vagina and take testosterone) the change would be gentler, easier, and more expected to them.

I feel like a snap change by dressing female instantly or coming out directly would take a serious emotional toll on my elderly father, who already has a rough enough time with a disease that made him lose his ability to do what he loved, and age finally starting to take its toll. If they did ask directly, I would tell them, and hope it would be easier due to the fact that I plan to freeze semen before bottom surgery.

[Devlyn]

Doctors work within WPATH to ensure that the medical billing is properly coded, and that they get paid. I went in and told them I was genderfluid, that I didn't identify as a woman or a man, and I chose to present female. I got a hormone prescription, and after seven months (not the twelve months recommended by WPATH), I had surgery.

Disclaimer: Before I was given my letter, the psychologist told me that she understood genderfluid, but the insurance companies needed to see certain language before they would approve payment. She read the letter with me, and it certainly sounded more like a transsexual's situation than my own reality. It felt a little flat, but getting the surgery was the goal, not being happy with the contents of insurance correspondence.

Bottom line: WPATH works for non-binary people, too.

Hugs, Devlyn