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New ID rules may complicate air travel

Started by Natasha, January 12, 2008, 10:24:22 AM

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Natasha

New ID rules may complicate air travel

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080111/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/secure_driver_s_licenses
By DEVLIN BARRETT
01/11/2008

WASHINGTON - Millions of air travelers may find going through airport security much more complicated this spring, as the Bush administration heads toward a showdown with state governments over post-Sept. 11 rules for new driver's licenses.
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Purple Pimp

This is one of the few instances where I'm proud of my state (GA) for standing up to the Feds.  I hope our Legislature doesn't cave.

Lia
First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you would do. -- Epictetus
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tekla

Hard to think that air travel could be more complicated - or unpleasent - than it is now.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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IsabelleStPierre

Quote from: genovais on January 12, 2008, 04:25:41 PM
This is one of the few instances where I'm proud of my state (GA) for standing up to the Feds.  I hope our Legislature doesn't cave.

Lia
They might change their stance if no one can get on an airplane with their state issued ID...or enter into any federal building either
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tekla

Exactly, what's the downside of not getting into a federal building?  I'm over fifty, never been in one in my life except for the Library of Congress.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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IsabelleStPierre

Quote from: tekla on January 12, 2008, 05:18:44 PM
Exactly, what's the downside of not getting into a federal building?  I'm over fifty, never been in one in my life except for the Library of Congress.

True about the federal building aspect of things...no major loss...but can't fly...OMG that is like a god given right isn't it???
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Maebh

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tekla

Oh dear, its all so iccky that I don't even do it anymore.  I take the train, but since I will not travel anyplace that is not Wa, Ore, Calif, Az, NM, or Colorado, its not really a problem.  I was spoiled rotten by 10 years on tour buses - total luxury, even for crew types - and I'm not going to tell some minimum wage jerk what my business is, and they will not let me take my tools anymore, and I'm not putting several thousand dollars of electronic equipment through the den of thieves that is any airlines baggage system either, so I'm left with no other choice.

My dad was a line captain for United for 30+ years.  I grew up on airplanes that served real food on china with silver service.  I can't stand what happened to all of that.  But a private sleeper on a train, which has a bar and dinner service three times a day, I can live with that.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Ricki

Lets call the Real ID what it really is--------COMMUNISM. This plan, if enacted ,could further destroy the airline industry leading to a merger of most airlines into an Aeroflot like system. The REAL IRONY is when the wall came down in Berlin, it began going up here. When America armed the Afgan rebels to fight the Communists, a worse enemy was created. Are the inmates running the asylum? Do we want a Communist America.???????? The Real ID is a Real Step in that direction.Franz Kafka must be REAL AMUSED. Should the Feds further erode States Rights? Its funny how conservatives wanted states rights to maintain Jim Crow, but are against them now.
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tekla

In fact, as words go, what this is is far more like fascism than any sort of communism, though the Soviet Union you talk about what not exactly communist, but Stalinist, a subgroup of Totalitarianism (state regulation of nearly every aspect of public and private behavior - wiki).  I don't think the inmates have been running this asylum since at least 1914, but that's another topic.

The airline industry was pretty much economic toast by the early 1990s as far as revenues go, rising fuel prices and intense dog-eat-dog competition that put a price point lower then actual cost did them in (so much for the free market, but it simply was not a sustainable industry anyway, unlike railroads).  9-11 was just one more nail in the coffin, but in fact, its always been a protected industry, with no competition allowed as the federal government has always controlled and allocated the routes.

It is funny how conservatives love states rights, except when they don't, but the liberals are guilty of that too.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Keira


Why not just use your passport as ID.
Don't think they've got name or gender history in that document.
I know its not a solution for all. But, for those
who have it works.
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tekla

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Keira


But, still there are international standards to what's stored in a passport.
OF course, the US could store more, but seeing as these passport can fall
into "bad" hands, I don't think they'd want anything but basic ID info on board
(including basic biometrics). Even encryption in this case is not protection enough
since encryption on public ID's need a key that's far too public to be fully secure.

Its more secure to take the passport ID and get whatever info you need at the border or when
taking a flight inside a closed IT system with defined access points.

How much information needs to be divulged when bording
a flight to various people probably is the resort on homeland security; I'd be surprised
that name and gender history would be relevant (or permitted) to airline or
security personnel (especially those on domestic flights).
The passport is a highly vetted document. If its not tampered
with (which is the most important thing in a physical ID anyway), just the
name to biometrics and photo correspondance should be enough and
of no problem to us.

BTW: There's nothng magic in RFID. Its a memory, some small processor + communication at low power, some have more onboard processing which enables them to create on the fly mesh networks, but that's overkill for passports or ID's. RFID can get its power externally (trough the radio waves), or internally (small battery). Those that are used in fields for example have very low power short distance communications. They are often coupled with sensors and create mesh networks with neighbors to pass sensor data down the line to the intended receivers.

So, RFID is just a descended of the bar code, a way to tag identifying info in a standardised cheap way on directly on objects (tagging boxes or cats) or on objects associated with the tag info (like ID's).

RFID have existed for quite awhile (heard about them in the mid 80's) and they're getting cheaper all the time. Its not the RFID itself that's at issue, its how RFID enables a more automated ID -> Crossreferencing -> Notifying -> Action -> Cameras being turned on, recordings saved, that freaks people out. It makes what was once expensive, cheaper. It gives internet level privacy (not much) to real world interactions.

But, its not RFID specifically that needs regulations. There just needs to be a discussion on the amount of privacy a citizen should expect and pass laws in consequence. If that's not done, don't be surprised if every move you make, every breathe you take, you are watched (ode to the Police and stalking on this one  ;)
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lisagurl

Passports work fine but why on domestic flights? You do not need ID on a bus. Bomb screening should enough to insure safety. The drivers license is just a way the Feds push enforcement of federal laws in the laps of the states even if the state does not agree with the law.
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NicholeW.

Stalinists? Fascists? Communists? Ummm, not so much. Just run-of-the-mill seekers after power. In this case they saw an opportunity to replace the old bug-a-boo that had allowed them to encroach into personal lives and assert control -- The Evil Empire.

Dead since 1991 and with no legitimate 'fear-producing' evil waiting in the wings. 911 was a great landmark for them: scared the skin of most folks, 'the terrorists are coming to a mall near you.' Legislation like this was voted on by liberals, conservatives and moderates alike, pushed on by their constituents who felt that their constitutional right not to die was being threatened.

Real ID is another way to try to achieve total security. I imagine it's a vain attempt -- bet someone dies after it's implemented -- but not such a vain attempt to control movement and whereabouts. Provided the weight of the tracking mechanisms don't destroy the entire process.

N~
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Keira


Myself, I don't see having a national ID, instead of a state one, as worse!
Maybe its because people trust their state more than washington.
As for using passport on internal flights, why not?
The reason they want to do the real ID thing is because most US
citizen don't have passports. Those with passports already have
a national (or even international) standardised ID.

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lisagurl

QuoteAs for using passport on internal flights, why not?

Because there is no legitimate reason for anyone to keep records of your travel in a free society. You buy passage for a person on a machine there is no legal reason for that machine to know your name.
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tekla

I agree, hence the train.  Aside from the luxury of being able to use my phone, my computer, my camara - plus the bar, and the bed, and the shower, and the dining car.  And I don't have to 'stay in my seat' I can wander, find people to play cards or Rail Barron (its kind of an Amtrak cult almost, I always take my set with me), and I get to see stuff too.  My stuff is safe, locked away and not floating through baggage (or being sent so some place I'm not).  I've been part of all night guitar pulls in the dome car, been allowed to play Big Band Jazz over the sound system, even play DVDs over the system.  Try doing that on a plane.  And unlike the airline industry, the staff understands the word 'service.'

Airline travel has become so bad, its making the Hound from Hell look good.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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cindianna_jones

I lived in Chile during 1974 and 1975 immediately after the overthrow of Allende.  The subsequent regime of Pinochet was terrifying.  I had to carry a national ID card.  Citizens of Chile had green "carnet" cards, people from other countries had blue ones, and US citizens had RED ones.

You had to have your card on your person at all times.  You had to show it to men with machine guns whenever they wanted to see it.

I often thought that one day, all someone would have to do was see that my carnet was colored red and they would shoot me on site.

I remember spending a day at their most feared agency, "Investigaciones".  This agency was the one responsible for all the heinous crimes you may have heard or read about (If you haven't you should).  They arrested me because some ->-bleeped-<- head carrabinero on a corner with a machine gun noticed that my middle name was "J".  Yup.  Just the letter j.  In Spanish, that's not "jay" it's "jota", and nobody can have just a jota for a middle name.  So, he had determined that I was some sort of spy and I ended up in the middle of spook central fearing for my life because of a stupid ID card and the fact that some imbecile had control over my life.

For the remainder of my time in that fair country, I received not a single package from my family even though they sent many.  Shortly before I left, I did manage to track them down with the help of a new found acquaintance in their local CIA.  Yup.  They had them all... in the city where I had just recently relocated.  They had all be opened and anything of value was stolen.  What I had left some empty boxes and a few packages of rotten cookies.

You don't think that can't happen here?  This sort of thing does happen.  It is prone to happen.  The only thing that prevents it is government by the people.  If we give government control over our lives, they WILL take it.  And it's not easy to get back.

Cindi
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Steph

Quote from: Cindi Jones on January 13, 2008, 04:01:27 PM
<snip>
....  If we give government control over our lives, they WILL take it.  And it's not easy to get back.

Cindi

No truer words were ever spoken.  Many before us fought and died for the freedoms we enjoy today.  Let us not simply roll over and play dead.

Steph
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