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Tanya's Tale

Started by TanyaG, September 27, 2024, 02:30:30 PM

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Lori Dee

I am always amazed at the number of government bodies and their allies that rely on a birth certificate as proof of anything other than genealogy and citizenship. Who carries around their birth certificate? If there is no requirement to show a GRC, why carry one around?

Here in the U.S., most people do not carry their birth certificate in their purse or wallet. So, someone demanding to see one could be met with, "Show me yours first." A birth certificate is not a photo ID and can be (and sometimes is) used for identity theft. Just like a Social Security card, it doesn't really prove anything. I would think that carrying one or more photo IDs (passport, driver's license, etc.) would be more than sufficient to ward off casual queries.
My Life is Based on a True Story
Veteran U.S. Army - SSG (Staff Sergeant) - M60A3 Tank Master Gunner
2017 - GD Diagnosis / 2019- 2nd Diagnosis / 2020 - HRT / 2022 - FFS & Legal Name Change
/ 2024 - Voice Training / 2025 - Passport & IDs complete

D'Amalie

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 21, 2025, 08:41:35 AM"Show me yours first." A birth certificate is not a photo ID and can be (and sometimes is) used for identity theft. Just like a Social Security card, it doesn't really prove anything. I would think that carrying one or more photo IDs (passport, driver's license, etc.)

Considering a birth certificate was required for "real" ID issuance?  Should work in the states.  Much sadness that is polarizing.  Just let us be!  we aren't gumming up the works for anyone!  Argh!
One shouldn't open the book of another's life and jump in the middle.  I am a woman, I'm a mystery.  I still see and hear who I used to be, who I am, who I'm gonna be. - Richelle
"Where you'd learn do to that, miss?" "Just do it, that's all; ... I got natural talent." "I'll say you do, at that." - Firefly

Lori Dee

My Life is Based on a True Story
Veteran U.S. Army - SSG (Staff Sergeant) - M60A3 Tank Master Gunner
2017 - GD Diagnosis / 2019- 2nd Diagnosis / 2020 - HRT / 2022 - FFS & Legal Name Change
/ 2024 - Voice Training / 2025 - Passport & IDs complete

TanyaG

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 21, 2025, 08:41:35 AMI am always amazed at the number of government bodies and their allies that rely on a birth certificate as proof of anything other than genealogy and citizenship.

The argument in the UK has always been (from government) that voters are against id cards. Except we regularly have to provide id in the form of driving licenses, passports, utility bills and now birth certificates, so an id card would be so much easier.

The last poll I saw showed a majority in favour of an id card, FWIW!

Lori Dee

Here in the U.S., there was talk of a Federal ID card. Most people were against that as it would provide a federal database that no one wants to be in. The States argued that it was overbroad and impinged on states' rights. The compromise was the Real ID Act, which allows states to continue to issue driver's licenses and state IDs, but requires them to comply with federal guidelines for domestic travel and access to federal facilities.
My Life is Based on a True Story
Veteran U.S. Army - SSG (Staff Sergeant) - M60A3 Tank Master Gunner
2017 - GD Diagnosis / 2019- 2nd Diagnosis / 2020 - HRT / 2022 - FFS & Legal Name Change
/ 2024 - Voice Training / 2025 - Passport & IDs complete

D'Amalie

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 21, 2025, 09:04:45 AMJust let us pee!  ;D

<<I get it.  Sung to the Beetles tune:  Let it be.  Let it Be-e. Let it be. Just let it be.  Speaking words of wisdom, Let it be....>>
One shouldn't open the book of another's life and jump in the middle.  I am a woman, I'm a mystery.  I still see and hear who I used to be, who I am, who I'm gonna be. - Richelle
"Where you'd learn do to that, miss?" "Just do it, that's all; ... I got natural talent." "I'll say you do, at that." - Firefly

TanyaG

#146
This post is a much expanded version of one I made elsewhere on Susan's, but I've added it to my blog because I hope it will be helpful to anyone who is struggling to deal with their gender expression, whether they are trans or not. Within this expanded version, I'm going to question some of the core concepts of transgender, because the term carries over baggage from transsexualism, including the excludion groups of people who have everything in common with us.

To set the scene, when we're born, we're a blank slate with a few pre-programmed instincts, but totally reliant on our parents. We can't even see properly until we're six weeks old. We have a physical sex assigned to us at birth by someone who glances at our genitals and decides whether we're a boy or girl, but our brains aren't developed enough to understand that, even if we were aware the judgment had been made.

On the basis of that quick visual inspection, we are gendered from an early age, our parents dressing us and teaching us how to behave (and not to behave) in a gender which matches our genitals. For the first three years of our life, this doesn't matter, but sometime after that, we become aware of how we are gendered.

Why? Because our brain has matured.

This is where the uncertainties for trans people begin and where the certainties for cis people also begin. We may be happy to dress and behave in the gender we were assigned at birth, or we may not.

Why is that an issue?

Gender is a lived experience, which governs how we behave and how others expect us to behave, on a second to second basis. It affects every aspect of our lives, including how we express ourselves, with whom we make friends, how we react to them and how they react to us.

The gotcha is gender isn't an on off switch, but a spectrum along which people can fall at any point. Unfortunately, most societies behave as if gendered expression only has two states, leaving people programmed to respond either to someone as a man, or as a woman. As quick example, if someone has say 20% more masculine traits than feminine ones, their behaviour may be read as male, but many people will be so sensitive to their feminine traits they won't be able to allocate them to one sex or another.

Where this causes problems is because most cis people expect gendered behaviour to match with their assessment of a person's sex assigned at birth, which they read from physical, or phenotypical appearance along with other factors such as voice. If the two do not match, others feel discomfort, anxiety and even anger as they try to process with the mismatch. As they process, they're likely to mentally fill in assumptions about everything from the sexual preferences of the person before them to their trustworthiness.

Whether someone who has gender incongruence (GI) is perceived by people to be trans depends on other factors and crucially, on the model the observer uses to understand what being trans means.

The majority of cis people and many trans people use the transsexualism model, within which to be trans you must have reached an understanding you're in the wrong body for the gender with which you identify. Since sexual reassignment surgery only has two end points, the transsexualism model only fits binary people, but because binary people are so very common, it is easily understood. The problem with transsexualism is it has led to some people having sexual reassignment surgery when they should have been offered other alternatives.

There are other, profound issues locked up within the transsexualism model. A woman with a preponderance of masculine traits who isn't seeking gender affirming medical care (GAMC) doesn't fit, nor does a man with more feminine traits than masculine ones who doesn't seek GAMC. However, if those two individuals were seeking GAMC, people viewing them through the lens of transsexualism would accept they were trans without question. Yet the only thing that would have changed is the two's commitment to medical treatment.

So this is a labelling issue. Leaving feminine cis men and masculine cis women aside for now, a crucial test of any model of gender identity is how well it copes with non-binary people, who are as numerous as either feminine trans people, or as masculine trans people.

Non-binary people don't fit the transsexualism model at all, because sexual reassignment isn't a goto option for them and they don't fit at all well within the transgender model either.

I'd argue that anyone who has approaching an even balance of masculine and feminine traits, or has nothing in common with either should only approach the medical phase of GAMC after a great deal of thought and therapy, because changing sex is unlikely to bring them the benefits it can to binary trans people.

The model I favour centres gender incongruence instead of transgender-ness to make sense of the evidence that people with GI are not a homogenous group. My model sees GI as a balance, or a spectrum, instead of a state with two end points and furthermore it backgrounds GAMC because it is an option which need not be considered by everyone who has GI.

Why do I find this a useful way of looking at gender? Because while a desire to change physical sex is a symptom binary people with GI frequently share, there are numerous people with GI who would be shocked if someone considered them transgender and offered them medical treatment (as in everything after therapy) as the solution.

The good news is everyone can be fitted into a GI centred model, opening the door to effeminate men and masculine women, along with non-binary people, and every group that shares GI with us. Using this model, nobody is left out.
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Bobbisocksgrl70

As I read this I found someone who had many of the same life experiences and feelings as do I. I would love to live full time however that would destroy many of the things I hold most dear. I have embraced my female side and think only in those terms. I am more at peace then ever in my life. I am always Bobbi on the inside Bob is only there to save the parts of my life I won't give up. I did not choose this it chose me. It has nothing to do with sex or arousal. I know this as it started before long
puberty.

Thank you for your post I am of the belief that someday society will accept those who on a continuum of gender presentation but we are not there yet. That being said there are lots of us that are between the keys of the piano. I am making your post a favorite to read and reread in the future. Thanks! Hugs Bobbi
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ChrissyRyan

Have a nice weekend Tanya!

I enjoy your many postings.


Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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TanyaG

Quote from: Bobbisocksgrl70 on May 24, 2025, 07:33:07 AMAs I read this I found someone who had many of the same life experiences and feelings as do I. I would love to live full time however that would destroy many of the things I hold most dear.

There's a tendency even on Susan's to view people with GI as a homogenous blob, instead of the rather wonderful alphabet soup we are. Yet in common we share GI, whether we're post medical treatment or have never gone further than wearing the clothes of another sex and it's my dearest wish everyone can appreciate and share our common cause.

So thank you very much for the feeback.
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TanyaG

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on May 24, 2025, 07:39:06 AMI enjoy your many postings.

You too, Chrissy! We're looking at barbecuing a huge chunk of steak, but this is England, so it's drizzling!
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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: TanyaG on May 24, 2025, 07:45:42 AMYou too, Chrissy! We're looking at barbecuing a huge chunk of steak, but this is England, so it's drizzling!


I hope you enjoy your steak.

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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TanyaG

For many of us, the discovery we are trans is not a moment of blinding revelation, in which it becomes apparent we've been born in the wrong body and are destined to walk the path of gender affirming medical care (GAMC) to salvation. For some, GAMC works like that, but it's only necessary to read a handful of biographies in the introductions here to realise many take decades to accept they are trans, only to become confused because they don't fit within any of the definitions they can read on Susan's.

One of the dangers definitions and diagnoses pose must be faced when we are searching for a solution to account for our situation. It's too tempting to fit our situation to a diagnosis instead of working the other way around. Diagnosis and definitions can offer false assurance and this post explains why.

Back in 1949 a psychologist called Forer did a classic experiment is which he asked 39 psychology students to complete a personality evaluation before he fed back the interpretations to them.

With few exceptions each of the students accepted the interpretation as a good description of their own personality, until they were told they had all been given the same interpretation regardless of how they had answered the questions in their 'personal' tests. When Forer let them into the secret, the whole class burst into laughter.

Ever after, this tendency to comply with descriptions when they may only partly describe us has been known as the 'Forer effect' and sometimes as the 'Barnum effect' after the circus impresario famed for his illusions. It is very, very powerful because it often works in combination with what is called 'confirmation bias'.

Confirmation bias (CB) describes how most people react when we are given a piece of information which reinforces something we're inclined to believe. We are much more likely to lend weight to something which helps to confirm our beliefs and justify our actions than we are to take account of evidence which points the other way. CB has such a powerful effect that even powerful statistical evaluations are routinely turned down by people who are under its spell.

CB can be a serious issue amongst scientists and medics, let alone members of the public. There are doctors who've become strongly committed to a particular line of treatment on the basis of a handful of low grade evidence research papers - very often ones where they were involved in the research. Not only is this a negligent way to practice medicine, it is flat out deprecated by the scientific community at large, but a few doctors still do it and sometimes their patients become influencers on their behalf. This has led to some life changingly serious mistakes being made by people downstream of the influencers, who are rarely to be found when things have gone wrong and responsibility has to be taken.

What happens when the Forer effect and CB combine to affect people seeking to understand their lives? There's no shortage of others encouraging us to fit into definitions and when those people are themselves subject to the Forer effect and CB it can lead us down steep sided, slippery rabbit holes that can prove almost impossible to escape.

This happened when transsexualism was accepted theory and led directly to non-binary people being offered inappropriate sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) which later was reversed. CB and the Forer effect were also factors when gender incongruent children were offered conversion therapy by psychologists in the 1960s and 1970s, which you can read about here.

My personal experience of being gender incongruent (GI) has varied enormously over the years. In my twenties, I was being told the solution was to have SRS. After long deliberation and much angst didn't go down that route because when I analysed what my own feelings were, changing sex didn't solve more than a handful of issues I faced. Non-binary wasn't a widely accepted idea then although I had an inkling that's where I lay. Then in the 1990s, the idea of transgender surfaced, but strong overtones of 'change sex and you'll be fine' remained. My CB tempted me, but I resisted, because analysis had taught me by then SRS was not a solution for me. It was only when the concept of non-binary became explicit that I realised how close I got to taking the wrong route and opting for SRS.

Gender Affirming Medical Care (GAMC) retains strong overtones of the SRS route and the interplay between the Forer effect and CB is still feeding people into a funnel which drains into a pot marked SRS. Yet there are many people here, including every non-binary person, for whom SRS is not a solution. For them it would be much better to avoid every label below the all embracing one of gender incongruence (GI) and achieve their own peace with that first, because GI is broad enough to welcome us all while we get our heads straight.

Why am I so strong on the concept of GI? Because it isn't a diagnosis, or a definition which homogenises people the way terms like transgender does and transsexualism did. Once we have learned to accept we are GI, then we can move on and work out what flavour of GI we are, should we wish to do so. Achieving a steady state where we can be happy and confident will still take therapy and time, but that can be done under circumstances where the Forer effect and CB are least likely to be able to push us down any rabbit holes, leaving us trapped.

Where to after that? Once you are happy you've made a decision about your GI that hasn't been warped by either the Forer effect or CB, then you can go down the GAMC route should it be appropriate. For many people reading this, GAMC will be a liberating experience, but for others it will not, so the best advice I have is to understand all the influences that may be acting on your perceptions of who you are before you act.

That way you'll have no regrets and can look forward to the best possible future. Moreover, it will not be a future crafted by others into which you will have to fit, it will be a future which is right for you which doesn't need any adjustments to feel comfortable.

Allie Jayne

Of course, there are many of us who don't feel we are male or female who need SRS. I don't subscribe to any classification, but my main dysphoria trigger was offensive tissue down there. The only way I could get rid of it was to go along with WPATH requirements at the time and transition to pass the RLT. I didn't need a female vulva, but it was part of the necessary package.

We are all so different, it's nearly impossible to find common ground, even within non binary groups. There used to be a saying that a crossdresser was someone who hadn't accepted they were transsexual yet, and while it can't hold true for everyone, there may be some truth in the notion that we are all somewhere on a journey within the gender spectrum, and that the only description which fits us all is Gender Incongruent.

Hugs,

Allie

Pema

Tanya, thank you. So much of what you wrote in your last post resonates with where I am and how I think and feel about it at the moment.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 27, 2025, 05:48:49 AMFor many of us, the discovery we are trans is not a moment of blinding revelation, in which it becomes apparent we've been born in the wrong body...

I think that describes me. I'm definitely aware of dislikes about my body, but they don't necessarily extend to "I want that instead."

Quote from: TanyaGIt's too tempting to fit our situation to a diagnosis instead of working the other way around.

That's exactly my concern. I want to understand how I feel and what I want (and why!), then look at what's actually possible and make the choices that seem like they'd bring me as close as I can be to where I want to be. Window shopping for what's available and asking whether I want it isn't how I want to do this.

Quote from: TanyaGCB can be a serious issue amongst scientists and medics, let alone members of the public.

That's why I left academia after earning my PhD in physics. I'd gone into it thinking we were pursuing Truth only to discover that a majority were defending the positions they'd built their careers on - even in the face of evidence showing there might be plausible alternatives.

Quote from: TanyaGWhat happens when the Forer effect and CB combine to affect people seeking to understand their lives? There's no shortage of others encouraging us to fit into definitions...

Exactly. I've had this experience with therapists, too, saying things like, "You know, *most people* in your situation would..." I never understood why statistical norms would be held up as exemplary. I don't think many people consider the degree to which language and the constructs they try to convey limit our awareness of the full scope of possibility/experience.

Quote from: TanyaGYet there are many people here, including every non-binary person, for whom SRS is not a solution. For them it would be much better to avoid every label below the all embracing one of gender incongruence (GI) and achieve their own peace with that first, because GI is broad enough to welcome us all while we get our heads straight.

...

Once we have learned to accept we are GI, then we can move on and work out what flavour of GI we are, should we wish to do so. Achieving a steady state where we can be happy and confident will still take therapy and time, but that can be done under circumstances where the Forer effect and CB are least likely to be able to push us down any rabbit holes, leaving us trapped.

Where to after that? Once you are happy you've made a decision about your GI that hasn't been warped by either the Forer effect or CB, then you can go down the GAMC route should it be appropriate. For many people reading this, GAMC will be a liberating experience, but for others it will not, so the best advice I have is to understand all the influences that may be acting on your perceptions of who you are before you act.

That way you'll have no regrets and can look forward to the best possible future. Moreover, it will not be a future crafted by others into which you will have to fit, it will be a future which is right for you which doesn't need any adjustments to feel comfortable.

That's a great description of how I'm trying to approach this exploration. I see it in some ways as checking off observations from within: Definitely don't feel like "a man." Yes, check. Do feel like "a woman?" Well... Sometimes, but not so often and so clearly that I can check that one off. Do I hate my beard and want it gone forever. Yes. The genitals? Mostly, yes, but then what? Others fall into "Not so sure (yet)." So I'm content for the moment being in the GI category. Odds seem high that I'll filter down to a more specific designation as my checklist fills in, but that will take time and deep introspection. I'm a patient/skeptical/observant enough person to wait and watch and be reasonably comfortable while I do.

On the nomenclature, I've been satisfied thinking of myself as "transgender" because the prefix "trans-" has many meanings, one of which is "beyond." I strongly resist what I see as a very confining set of descriptors within the gender category, so I look beyond that to identify how I feel about myself and who I am. I still see the incongruity as arising from deficiencies of the language and model, not the people who don't fit it.

I remember seeing the movie "Kinsey" many years ago. The thing about it that stayed with me was that what people had believed about human sexual behavior - what normal behaviors were, what abnormal behaviors were - was all incredibly simplistic; the reality was vastly more varied and complex than anyone had even imagined. Since then, I've suspected the same was true of many other models of human behavior and experience. I wouldn't expect gender to be an exception.

TanyaG

Quote from: Pema on May 27, 2025, 02:52:56 PMOdds seem high that I'll filter down to a more specific designation as my checklist fills in, but that will take time and deep introspection. I'm a patient/skeptical/observant enough person to wait and watch and be reasonably comfortable while I do.

Thanks for the lengthy comment, that kind of thing really motivates me. I'm like you in that it's taken time for me to allow reflection to result in adjustments and watch and wait has allowed me to sail into calm waters without doing any steering I particularly remember :)

Quote from: Pema on May 27, 2025, 02:52:56 PMI remember seeing the movie "Kinsey" many years ago. The thing about it that stayed with me was that what people had believed about human sexual behavior - what normal behaviors were, what abnormal behaviors were - was all incredibly simplistic; the reality was vastly more varied and complex than anyone had even imagined. Since then, I've suspected the same was true of many other models of human behavior and experience. I wouldn't expect gender to be an exception.

Kinsey had a fine mind. To blow everything people had taken for granted about sexuality into bits with two well aimed shots was quite a performance. I've just posted in the genderfluid thread that I don't think gender is an exception so I'm with you 100% there too.
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Sephirah

Heya, Tanya. Just poking my nose in.. as I am won't to do. I just wanted to say thank you. For putting yourself out there and reaching out to people. To help them cope with stuff. It takes a certain kind of person to want to do stuff like this. You are kind of Susan's resident therapist at this point and I love that. The site needs you. <3

I hope I haven't caused you too many issues trying to explain stuff, lol. But... yeah... I just wanted to thank you and say that what you do is massively appreciated. This site has an abundance of people you don't often find elsewhere. People who use their gifts to help up others, rather than hoard them like a dragon and try to keep people down. It's rare and precious these days.

So... thank you, sincerely.

Lauren <3
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3

TanyaG

Thank you for the thank you, Sephirah. It's very much appreciated, because if we don't help each other, who will?

D'Amalie

Quote from: TanyaG on May 24, 2025, 06:29:59 AMThis is where the uncertainties for trans people begin and where the certainties for cis people also begin. We may be happy to dress and behave in the gender we were assigned at birth, or we may not.

This is the reality.
One shouldn't open the book of another's life and jump in the middle.  I am a woman, I'm a mystery.  I still see and hear who I used to be, who I am, who I'm gonna be. - Richelle
"Where you'd learn do to that, miss?" "Just do it, that's all; ... I got natural talent." "I'll say you do, at that." - Firefly