To stay or go

[Terra]

Lately i've had trouble with my faith. In truth, i think i've fallen out of love with God and Jesus. Don't get me wrong, someone has been watching over me my whole life, and i'll readily credit God with it. But...

I just feel like I have to keep redefining my faith. This to me feels wrong and against my belief of faith. To make it worse, I keep feeling drawn to the Wicca religion. Once I started looking at the Wicca religion I turn around and can see so many problems with my belief in Christianity. Like how everyone in my life says to hate Satan. Personally I pity a being who is fated to do nothing but lie, cheat, and hurt others with no possibility of forgiveness or redemption. My problem with God him/herself is that every time I turn around I hear how much he hates one thing or another. I'm tired of having the bible smacked into my face. So nothing against God or Jesus, more with me being tired of the fanatics who follow them.

I was raised to be a Christian, taught to be a Christian, and know nothing but being a Christian. It is partly that last bit that has me wondering if maybe I need to branch out and see what else there is. But at the same time I feel guilty at leaving Christianity behind. I feel like i'm cheating on God and Jesus, and I guess that is what i'm considering. I have survived this long because of someone watching over me, and again, I give credit to Jesus and God. But on the other hand I feel those that convert to a religion are better off because it was their choice, not forced on them. I'm torn, and not sure what to do next.

The reason i'm posting here is because there are a lot of wise people here. I don't feel like I can go to a local church without compromising the recent successes in my transition. So I hope that I can find the answer through any wisdom you share.

[Susan]

I pick and choose from the various religions and beliefs. And ye shall know them by their fruits. If it's something that preaches tolerance, understanding, kindness, it's good fruits. Too much I see in modern chritianity smells like bad fruits. 

• I believe in a supreme diety some people call him or her god
• I follow the teachings of Jesus (new testament)
• I live the golden rule.
• I practice Karma.
• I believe in reincarnation.  Makes so much more sense than a eternal hell of torment and punishment.
• I think the wiccan rule of 3 is pretty close.
• I think yin and yang explains a lot in the world.
• I feel that many new aged teachings can bring a lot of good into the world if more people followed them.
• I think a good bit of most religions are intended to control the adherents of that religion. It has nothing to do with bettering mankind. or honoring a supreme diety.

Throw out the bad, and keep the good. So basically look for the good where ever you can find it. I even learned a life lesson once watching the movie Bruce Almighty. It was about the petty things we ask for in our prayers. Made me more consious of what I ask my supreme diety for.

[Wing Walker]

Hi, Angel,

I can easily see your confusion and disillusionment with contemporary Christianity.  There are too many humans who claim that they have "the way, the truth, and the light."

May I offer some things to ponder?

Satan is doomed by his own hand.  If he knelt before his maker and asked sincerely for forgiveness, that forgiveness would be given.  It is unfortunate that his pride will not allow that.  Please see the first chapter of the Book of Job concerning this.

In the Book of Proverbs, the Lord tells us through Solomon what it is that He hates.  Every single thing that God says that he hates has to do with how people treat one another.  That's all.

As to the rest of the talking points, I am very sleepy and will address them later, OK?

Many people have taught many more some "bad religion" and I believe that they will be held to account to the Creator for stirring strife instead of spreading love.

Wing Walker

[cindybc]

Hi, Angel,
I turned my back and walked away from religion and the church when I was old enough to make my own choices, 16 years old. Through the years I have slowly been building up my own faith, building it up from the many bits here and there of wisdom I collected from the many different faiths along the way.  I call it my own coat of many colors or a patch work of beliefs.

I believe in holly spirit, I'll come back to that one a bit later in this posting. Jesus, the son who was sent here to teach us how to find our way back. The answers to find our way back are all there for us to see. If we could only but allow ourselves to become sufficiently awakened we would be able to see what's on the other side of the thin grey veil. We would be able to see the Original perfection that God or Great Spirit had originally set in motion for his/her children.

The Holly Spirit, the closest I can evaluate and present this entity is that some folks I knew in another board address this force as the universal grid, the grid that constitutes the fabric of Universe. The fabric that binds all that is in universe as one. One within the all encompassing Oneness. Upon this infinite fabric, you will find that all matter and energy in universe is the  tapestry that is woven unto the infinite fabric.

I also have searched many other faiths in the hopes of finding at least a path I can follow to find my own answers. In one of my many searches I ended up on the doorstep of Wiccan witchcraft, the original which dealt with learning the ancient ways of being one or being synchronous with elements of nature. There is a lot of similarities between Wicca and North American natives spirituality.

I am spiritual, I am an empath, and I am woman.

Cindy         

[Pica Pica]

If you feel you are cheating on God and Jesus, it sounds like you still believe in them. And there is alway 'Whosoever believes in me', and you already fulfil that one.

[bethzerosix]

being raised christian and being christian are two different things.  being christian and following christ are also two different things... it is important that you come to your own conclusions. if you seek you will find, if you knock the door will be opened to you. 

[Terra]

If you feel you are cheating on God and Jesus, it sounds like you still believe in them. And there is alway 'Whosoever believes in me', and you already fulfil that one.

I never did stop believing in them no. But I'm falling out of love all the same. I don't know how to describe it, I just feel drawn to Wicca. But at the same time still feel attached to Christianity. I have heard of those who can combine these two religions, but only by being very liberal. I feel torn by that which I was and that of what attracts me. Does that make any sense?

[NicholeW.]

... I just feel drawn to Wicca. But at the same time still feel attached to Christianity. I have heard of those who can combine these two religions, but only by being very liberal. I feel torn by that which I was and that of what attracts me. Does that make any sense?

It makes very much sense, Angel. We wind-up being torn in many ways when we have to face events and situations we had never considered before. The appeal of what we 'once knew' can be very strong; yet, our new experiences often lead us to discovering that what we thought were pat answers may not be so very pat after all.

Life can be a struggle that way.

I have to admit that my 'ground,' like my grocery cart when I reach the check-out, looks a collection of various items. Mother is the center of that, but there is much of value in Christianity, Buddhism, Vedanta, Wicca, Taoism, syncretic thought from various sources of belief in metaphysical and non-belief in it.

I have picked and chosen for many years, finding what seems to me wisdom in different sources. At the end-of-the-day I label myself 'wiccan' simply because that label is more understandable to some and is vague and ill-defined enough to cover me. Still, I find wisdom & good guides for life in the Bhagavad Gita, "The Sermon on the Mount," Katha Upanisad, Tao te Ching, Dhammapada, The Care of the Soul, & The Mist-Filled Path among many other things.

I expect we must all find our own comfort-level as opposed to finding a "party-line" that we must toe regardless our personal comfort. Like transition, it's a process and takes time, patience & an ear for the stirrings of one's own soul/heart/mind.

Find what speaks to you, my dear, and don't be swayed too much by how the rest of us make our ways through the world. The road you walk will look differently to you than it will to any of the rest of us anyway.

Nichole

[Terra]

I had this thought as I was going to sleep last night, and maybe this is the thought I was looking for. I think this describes best why i'm falling out of love with God and Jesus.

Followers are a reflection of their God(s), God(s) are a reflection of their followers.

[Frank]

Angel;

  First, hang in there.
  Secondly; The word of God says that we all like sheep have gone astray and that there is not one of us that has done good. Even Paul said that there was no good thing in his flesh except the Spirit of God.
  We have seen an arogant generation that has arisen in Christianity that loves to cast stones while forgetting that they too (myself included) need the grace of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
  He was the only one that could fulfil all of the laws and prophets and be the atoning Lamb of sacrifice acceptable to God Almighty.
  The word of God says that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repetence. That goodness is Christ who fulfilled all things for us and is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. In fulfilling all things for us we can rest assured that can have mercy on whom he will and hardeneth whom he will. He has been given all grace to save to the uttermost those whom he foreknew would love him with all of their heart and soul and their strength and all their mind. He has all wrath to destroy those who trample underfoot his blood that was shed at Calvary . The problem is that too many have looked in the mirror and walked away forgetting what manner of man they are. Thinking themselves wise they became fools and thinking themselves the elect such as the Jews they become hateful to that which falls outside their doctrinal limitations.
  Hang in there and continue to believe as he is that faithful and true witness of God that shall not lie when he said all who call upon his name shall be saved.
  I didn't mean to ramble so but too many Christians, or should I say so-called Christians are casting stones and do not have the fear of God to realize that with what measure they judge they shall be judged. As written, to the merciful he shall show himself merciful...
  May God bless;
  Frank
 

[tekla]

Even Catholic schools teach comparative religion.  Check them all out.  That one religion is dead on right, and all other belief systems are 100% wrong, is a pride deal also.

[Chaunte]

being raised christian and being christian are two different things.  being christian and following christ are also two different things... it is important that you come to your own conclusions. if you seek you will find, if you knock the door will be opened to you. 

Angel,

I really believe that Beth hit this nail on the head.

Far too many people claim to be Christian and use scripture to justify their personal prejudices.  They do this by taking a line out of context and twist it around as a form of control.  Do as I say!  If not, God will be angry!

Poppycock.

Jesus came to bring a new law - one that supercedes the Old Testament.  This is a law of love, compassion, understanding and acceptance.

I cannot and will not accept that the Almighty would create us simply to be used as target practice for lightning bolts!  That is nothing more than fear coming from the mouths of those who should know better.

We are the children of the Almighty.  Jesus spent his ministry teaching this.  Then, as now, there were those who refused to hear.

Then, as now, those who refused to hear were also the ones preaching hate from the pulpit.  Hate - all in the name of God's love.

What an oxymoron.

If we are hated for who we are, we are in good company.  Remember, Jesus was thrown out of the synagogue.

Your sister in Christ,

Chaunte

[Wing Walker]

being raised christian and being christian are two different things.  being christian and following christ are also two different things... it is important that you come to your own conclusions. if you seek you will find, if you knock the door will be opened to you. 

Angel,

I really believe that Beth hit this nail on the head.

Far too many people claim to be Christian and use scripture to justify their personal prejudices.  They do this by taking a line out of context and twist it around as a form of control.  Do as I say!  If not, God will be angry!

Poppycock.

Jesus came to bring a new law - one that supercedes the Old Testament.  This is a law of love, compassion, understanding and acceptance.

I cannot and will not accept that the Almighty would create us simply to be used as target practice for lightning bolts!  That is nothing more than fear coming from the mouths of those who should know better.

We are the children of the Almighty.  Jesus spent his ministry teaching this.  Then, as now, there were those who refused to hear.

Then, as now, those who refused to hear were also the ones preaching hate from the pulpit.  Hate - all in the name of God's love.

What an oxymoron.

If we are hated for who we are, we are in good company.  Remember, Jesus was thrown out of the synagogue.

Your sister in Christ,

Chaunte

Chaunte, Beth, may I agree with your postings?  They are what is my life and what is in my heart.

Christianity is inclusive.  I cannot recall the chapter of whom and the verse but I have read that, concerning who we are, we are co-inheritors with Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven; that in the Creator, we live and move and have our being, and that all of us are the children of the King, none greater or lesser than any other.

Your postings are right in the money.

Wing Walker

[David W. Shelton]

Lately i've had trouble with my faith. In truth, i think i've fallen out of love with God and Jesus. Don't get me wrong, someone has been watching over me my whole life, and i'll readily credit God with it. But...

I just feel like I have to keep redefining my faith. This to me feels wrong and against my belief of faith. To make it worse, I keep feeling drawn to the Wicca religion. Once I started looking at the Wicca religion I turn around and can see so many problems with my belief in Christianity. Like how everyone in my life says to hate Satan. Personally I pity a being who is fated to do nothing but lie, cheat, and hurt others with no possibility of forgiveness or redemption. My problem with God him/herself is that every time I turn around I hear how much he hates one thing or another. I'm tired of having the bible smacked into my face. So nothing against God or Jesus, more with me being tired of the fanatics who follow them.

I was raised to be a Christian, taught to be a Christian, and know nothing but being a Christian. It is partly that last bit that has me wondering if maybe I need to branch out and see what else there is. But at the same time I feel guilty at leaving Christianity behind. I feel like i'm cheating on God and Jesus, and I guess that is what i'm considering. I have survived this long because of someone watching over me, and again, I give credit to Jesus and God. But on the other hand I feel those that convert to a religion are better off because it was their choice, not forced on them. I'm torn, and not sure what to do next.

The reason i'm posting here is because there are a lot of wise people here. I don't feel like I can go to a local church without compromising the recent successes in my transition. So I hope that I can find the answer through any wisdom you share.

HI Angel!

Apologies for taking so long to reply (I've been wicked busy lately). But this thread is at the very crux of what the spirituality forum is about... and it's so wonderful to see such different viewpoints mingled with harmony. Thank you, everyone.

I had an interesting discussion with another friend of mine yesterday where he told me that he was afraid he was losing his faith. Another friend once described what they called a "crisis of faith." I believe... and have always believed... that we should always search, seek, and knock. We should always question. We should always take that great journey of faith.

And there's no buts about it, either. The only way a person can truly be at peace with their faith is to question it... and then find the necessary answers. No, it's not safe. In fact, that's one of my greatest criticisms of fundamentalism: Fundamentalism insists that dogma never be questioned. It's a "safe" place for adherents of this belief, but that "god-in-a-box" is just way too confining for the Creator of the universe.

I think the very core of your original post is the question: "What is Christianity?" Is it about church? Is it doing good deeds? What about rules? No, it's not any of that. Christianity is "following Christ and His teachings." That's it. Everything that is pure and Godly within the Christian faith can be summed up in that one phrase.

If we think for a second that we've got to have a lot of rules to go by, consider that Jesus Himself summed up the entire law and the prophets into what is essentially four simple words: Love God, love people. Even the ten commandments can be summed up into that.

So take your journey, my friend. Yes, question. Question everything. After all, didn't our Lord say that we'd find what we seek? Does that mean you have to find the same thing I did? Of course not.

An important point: Christianity is following Christ, not Christians. Ashley said this very well:

a lot of supposed "christians" dont want you to be like jesus.

they want you to be like *them*

ick.

In fact, even Christian leaders acknowledge this. George Barna, one of the leading evangelical statisticians, said once that "the greatest hindrance that people have to Christ are the Christians!" This is very true.

It all falls into what we're searching for. If we look for the bad, the hypocrites, the vile, and the offensive, then that's what we'll find. But if you look for the good, the consistent, the pure, and the enlightening, then you'll find something far more valuable than mere rote and doctrine. Even Paul (who gets a lot of criticism, I know) wrote in Scripture that he considered all the rote and doctrine of being a Pharisee as dung (Phillippians 3) (actually, the Greek word used in that passage is a little more profane).

So if Paul thinks religiosity is BS, then maybe we can look beyond that, and "look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb 12:2).

Blessings to you on your journey, my friend. I know you'll find that which you seek.

[Terra]

Thanks everyone. I'm still struggling in my decision.

I guess its just hard being a scientist who believes in religion and has...visions that she can't explain. I believed in Jesus and God because it made the most sense. Science seemed to match up to the bible, and I felt that the core teachings matched up with my own beliefs. But now...

I do question my faith, i have almost everyday of my life David. It  helped me point out my weaknesses and strengths so I could grow. I have felt that we need to be able to doubt everything, that is how science works and it lets us grow, and I feel that is how we are able to have or souls grow.

But i've been touched by something. I see things, my friend calls them visions. I've always been drawn to wicca for reasons I can't truly explain. The worst of it is, I feel drawn to magick, but that doesn't exist right?

I'm not leaving something familiar behind if I go on this journey. I'm cutting a piece of my old and current self out. I've always trusted God and Jesus, saying quick prayers as I truly needed them. They are not simply my God and Savior, they are my friends. I feel like I'm betraying them, and for the life of me I can't figure out why I feel the need to do so.

I do not know how anyone can convert to another religion, this hurts, badly. But in a way I guess it is similar to my need to transition. I felt almost as badly. I just feel torn, between my attraction to a Goddess, and my love for God and Jesus.

This doesn't make any sense, my life doesn't make any sense, nothing in this world makes any sense. 

[Chaunte]

Thanks everyone. I'm still struggling in my decision.

I guess its just hard being a scientist who believes in religion and has...visions that she can't explain. I believed in Jesus and God because it made the most sense. Science seemed to match up to the bible, and I felt that the core teachings matched up with my own beliefs. But now...

I do question my faith, i have almost everyday of my life David. It  helped me point out my weaknesses and strengths so I could grow. I have felt that we need to be able to doubt everything, that is how science works and it lets us grow, and I feel that is how we are able to have or souls grow.

But i've been touched by something. I see things, my friend calls them visions. I've always been drawn to wicca for reasons I can't truly explain. The worst of it is, I feel drawn to magick, but that doesn't exist right?

I'm not leaving something familiar behind if I go on this journey. I'm cutting a piece of my old and current self out. I've always trusted God and Jesus, saying quick prayers as I truly needed them. They are not simply my God and Savior, they are my friends. I feel like I'm betraying them, and for the life of me I can't figure out why I feel the need to do so.

I do not know how anyone can convert to another religion, this hurts, badly. But in a way I guess it is similar to my need to transition. I felt almost as badly. I just feel torn, between my attraction to a Goddess, and my love for God and Jesus.

This doesn't make any sense, my life doesn't make any sense, nothing in this world makes any sense. 

Angel,

I am a scientist as well.  I have confidence in the rational and the logical. 

I have had many acquantances and workmates say that being a scientist and a believer are incompatable.  Nothing can be farther from the truth.

What I see as a scientist, and now a science teacher, is a hint at the Almighty's incredible vision and magesty.  "All I have seen teaches me to trust in the Creator I have not seen."  I think it was Einstein who said that, though I could be mistaken.  Rutherford, perhaps?  It was far too many years ao when I had that poster on my bedroom door.

The important point I want to make is this: While scriptures and science may be incompatable at times, faith and science are not.

In Christ,

Chaunte

[tekla]

I believed in Jesus and God because it made the most sense

I would postulate that its only because you were raised with it, it makes sense, not because it does, but because you have never doubted it.  Taken as a whole cloth, removed from religious belief, the basic story of the Christian faith is the most (pick one: absurd, surreal, spectacular, amazing, unbelievable) _______ story ever told.

[cindybc]

The more that science opens ones eyes the more of the grandeur of God is revealed for one to see. And there is an element of magic in the nature of all things.

Cindy

[tekla]

Still, the greatest collection of atheists is the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and its hard to find any true believers employed beyond the level of a clerk at a national DOE lab either.  The further you get into pure (or hard) science the fewer people believe in bronze age myths as a living truth.  That is not to say they do not believe in anything, but its a very different level of conception.

[cindybc]

Unless one is an archaeologist. There are many mysteries to be unraveled from artifacts left behind by ancient cultures. Artifacts that can reveal some very fascinating stories.

Cindy