Enough of this biggotry! Guys, (men) please comment!

[Autumn]

Here's the law I'd make

A transgender MUST be fully evualated by a therapist to ensure their really what they say they are.

Then they MUST be on hormones and AA's till their sex drive diminishes to low levels and their physical strenght shouldn't be too strong(not that women aren't strong).

Now if they want to use the women's bathroom they must dress in women's clothing not male clothing.

CD's shouldn't be allowed.

What in the hell does sex drive and physical strength have to do with anything here.


I haven't been in the womens' room since I was a little kid and my mom was still protecting me. I had one....very awkward conversation with a drunken guy at a urinal in the mens' bathroom at a bar, and I've chased a lot of men out of public bathrooms by my reflection or my hair. Actually just this past week a guy asked me face to face at school if he was in the wrong bathroom as I was leaving.

If I get any more female I'll probably just avoid public restrooms til I'm fulltime, if I go that route. 

[Keira]

The comment that CD's can't be distinguished from a TS is only true
if that TS is not on hormones... And most TS not on hormones
avoid the public restrooms, and so did I. I only went in 4 month
in when I was sure I wouldn't traumatized anyone. At 6 foot
I tower over 80's year old women who are often lot
less than 5 foot and even now they do double takes when they see
this tall beanpole entering the restroom.

As for CD VS TS on hormones, no contest in 95% of the case,
easily distinguishable. At a large party (at a cottage)
we had both (half and half)
and it was very clear who was which (and the CD's were
not amateurs). There are super CD's out there, but
they are few in the CD crowd and we're not talking about them
here since in their case in wouldn't matter since nobody
could ever know.

A CD going into a mall female restroom is doing so to proove a point
if you ask. I never did it in the years I cross dressed
when even if I was so androgyne that people didn't know if I was male
or female dressed in jeans and a T-shirt.

[tekla]

CD's can't be distinguished from a TS is only true if that TS is not on hormones - not a universal truth

most TS not on hormones avoid the public restrooms - got proof, or is this just molding the rest of the world on your experience?

I never did it in the years I cross dressed - again, this is not universal, but its your (and only your) experience.  I have since I was 16, more years than I care to remember, or state, but Nixon was President.

All I am saying, is that before you write laws that have serious consequences for everyone, it might help to take into account something other than your feelings and limited (and no slight, all of our experiences are limited) experiences, and look at the totality of the impact, and act as if the law might effect more than just you and that a law that has implications for all might depend on more (or at the very least, be based on more) than just your feelings.

You, and I, are a minority of ONE, in nations of millions.  Unless you are Terri Schiavo no one is going to write a law just for you.  Not that it did her any good anyway.

[Keira]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying THE IMPACT ON EVERYBODY
including THE WOMEN IN THE RESTROOM.

It seems what they want is NEVER taken into account


At least, I don't say 100% Tesla, I always underplay my assertions.
I give concrete examples of my experience.
The no one can tell a CD from a women or a TS on hormones
is something  I vehementally disagree with in almost all case. And I also don't agree on someone
who looks clearly male and identifies as male going into
the restroom; because then, as I said, what's the point
of putting FEMALE on the door!!

For the others, androgyne and the like, they don't ID as male or female
(even if they may be placed in either by the population), well
why would they even want to go into either one. The unisex
bathroom, but not a allee McBeal type, is what's needed.

[Audrey]

Since GID is pretty much self-diagnosed to begin with, and since people with money can doctor shop, they can buy whatever papers they want.  So that's not an option either.  Like "medical marijuana' which when it was passed meant people in chemo or with Glaucoma, but in reality, its down to $35 bucks and telling the Doc "I'm stressed" (and who is not). 

What doctor is that again???      

Oh yeah I forgot.  Short term memory is shot     Umm bathrooms yeah use whatever you feel comfortable.  As long as you don't assault someone verbally or otherwise.  And if people dislike it they can get over it.  Or just get rid of segregated bathrooms.

Audrey

[tekla]

What the GID doc, or the medical mary jane doctor.  Either way, in SF neither is hard to find.

[Sarah]

By the way I just want to comment that I would disagree that someone who doesn't pass isn't on HRT.
A large part of passing (for MTF's) is dependant upon facial hair removal.

Some people are on HRT but have not had facial hair removal.

I have a feeling that this is probably one of the biggest factors of discomfort that Keira is talking about: the having to deal with a Girl who has facial hair.

Unfortunately I think that that is unavoidable.

Many people who are full time have not had all facial hair removed or have gotten far enough into HRT to "Pass". But that is also another thing: Not everyone is concerned with "passing" and/or stealth. Especially people who are 'out'.
I would be one such person. I am full time, but not done with procedures yet. However I am not getting them for the sake of "passing" I am getting them for my own personal enjoyment as well as the fact that some aspects have never felt "right". facial hair is anoying, uncomfortable, and ugly as far as I am concerned so I will have it removed.
That doesn't mean I don't look like a girl with facial hair signs in the afternoon.

I have no intention of not using the restroom though. I am a girl. why should I? (use the other one?) I have some unfortunate facial difficulties I was born with. I will be dealing with that, but in the mean time I am not going to use the wrong restroom for me just because I get face issues.

I have boobs. Why would I use the other restroom?
I dont want to get mugged.

Sara

[tekla]

TeSLa was a genius, still not fully understood.  TeKLa is a blue collar idiot who just did very well at school, more for the papers, but my tests were pretty good too. 

Funny how a letter here or there changes Public Relations to Pubic Relations.  But hey, spelling is for dummies (Spell checkers are not) however, as how much difference can there be between the two.  Not much.  Of course, idiot that I am, I've seen far too many heavy metal press releases written by some PR flack who has Celine Dion on their home stereo, and only a moron pays attention to things like sales and box office when the release is so well written.  (if misspelled)

And I think that the Ally McBeal bathroom is just about perfect.  People need to get over themselves a bit.  But I bet if I put it to a vote here in GW Bush's Amerika, that "woman born women" and 'men born men' would win.  Not that guys care.

[Keira]

Didn't mispell it on purpose.
Just noticed it now.
Anyway, sorry I offended you.

BTW, my name is mispelled Kiera on a daily basis here.

Doesn't change anything else I said, does it.
Since I think I'm pretty coherent and keep mispelling to a minimum usually,
I won't go beyond "its a typo" and fall to my knees in shame.

And, I do know about Tesla, got 2 y in physics and 6 in various engineering, so hey!

As for your utter contempt of democracy, even at a local level, hey, you can
create your own anarchist's wonderland anywhere you want if you can
find enough anarchists too follow you (sic).

Even in San-Francisco, which is not Bush's america, a majority of women
would be of opinion of not letting cross dressers who identify as male
enter female restrooms.

If you want to dismiss them too, well let your inner dictator be your guide 
and do whatever you want till someone complains.

[Christo]

Cant use the ladies restroom.  women would scream .  one time I went to court for a parking ticket & this little old lady called the security guard on me b/c I was in her restroom   I wasnt on T yet but I was wearring mens clothes & my hair was very short like its now.  Phallo's a expensive surgery.  many trans men cant afford it.  If people want trans men to have dicks to use the mens room, tough! that aint happenin so they gotta get over it.  Same thing w/trans women. if ur a girl, use the ladies restroom.  it doesnt matter what u got down there.  a penis doesnt make anybody a man.

[tekla]

No problem, if I was to pick someone to be, it would be Tesla.  He however, well, sometimes very smart people have, well, shall we say, unique problems and are not easy to humor.

Still, how EXACTLY, in very exact terms, that would not have ever limited you, write that phrase of the law?

I underline that, because I'm not about to limit others for things you have received.  That would seem, well, unfair.

[Keira]

I'm not debating TS's right to use the restroom Chris, just male CDER's.

The whole issue of T's and TS's gets conflated and we can't even
agree here. Just imagine how it plays in whoever's america, or some other
continent.

As I said, even in liberal San-Francisco, if you ask women to let
a male identified CDer in their restroom, they'll ask why on earth?
That doesn't mean they're not ready to pass a law supporting
unisex restrooms and even subsidize conversion. Because
it can also be sold as a family room (which helps them, not
just others).

The alley McBeal Unisex is not seen as secure
by most women (that's why it was played up for laugh
so much in that show).

The unisex most prefered are the small room ones with corridor
access. Many restaurants have those now. In fact, its more practical
for them since it in fact uses less space since they're less loss space
for corridor inside the restrooms and they can eliminate one.

[tekla]

Add, 'sexist' to the list.

And it plays out fine here.  Most people are really to busy to care.  That's pretty much what the law has proved.

[J.T.]

They are called Men's and Women's bathrooms... not male or female.  I've never seen a bathroom door have the words MALE and FEMALE on them.  So it doesn't matter what is between your legs.  If you were required to go into certain restrooms based on whether you've got a penis or not... there will be bio guys who would have to go into the women's restroom, and nobody would force that on them. 

Yeah, it isn't smart to go in if you can't pass... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

As for wearing certain clothes, if you had to go depending on that... then there would be lots of women going into the men's room. 

[Christo]

I'm not debating TS's right to use the restroom Chris, just male CDER's.

I didnt say u were Keira.  but who's to judge who is supposed to use the mens room or the ladies room.   we just wanna do our business in the restroom & get it over with.

[Keira]

I said, male or female, I meant men or women, Oh god,
people just latch on to nits and bypass everything else.

But again Chris, why is the opinion of the other women
or men, always dismissed, or they're called bigots or told to live with it.
That's what gets my goat, total disregard for the other person's position.
In negotiation, its never good to dimiss the person you have
to work with.

The best solution is the unisex restroom and many women
will actually be ready to approve this. Just saying
"get over it" or "live with it" is not a good way to
get them to vote for a measure. If you can get
them on board by either educating them, or
telling them how it can help them, well you'll
get your wish without polemic.

Although, I do admit many in the T community seem to love
polemic, so maybe that would be cramping their style 

[tekla]

Someone who thinks that words, and language is 'nits' and who wants a job in public relations is like a musician who does not care if its F sharp or B minor.  They might be musicians, but they don't make the band.

[Dennis]

Men are just as likely to be raped in the men's room as women are in the men's room as women are in the women's room

I doubt that, either way.  Rape happens in private, not public spaces as a rule.

Read the sentence, Tekla, 0=0=0. Doesn't mean any of those values is 1. I don't get why this is so hard. If you're MtF, go to the women's room. Don't stand up to pee even if you find the toilet seat squicky and have the equipment to avoid it. If you're a CD'er, and in a gay bar, then do whatever the social norms are there, but please don't pee on the seat.

And if you're in the men's room, please don't pee on the seat. Some of us sit down.

And the major rule. Watch out for your own personal safety. Be aware of how you come across. If you come across as the wrong gender for the bathroom, you're going to get flak. Make sure you can handle it.

For my own in between stage, I went out of my way to go to gas stations, ask for the key, and use whichever bathroom they gave me the key to. Or, I'd go to places where I knew they had a gender neutral bathroom. It was a safety thing for me.

Dennis

[Christo]

Someone who thinks that words, and language is 'nits' and who wants a job in public relations is like a musician who does not care if its F sharp or B minor.  They might be musicians, but they don't make the band.

lmao

[Keira]

Tekla, better talk to yourself because that's all you'll from me from now on.
Your personal attack on my employability is plain vile.