Ethical Issue- Do you help when your help is not requested?

[Wendy]

Actually I am interested in ideas to help this person rather than your answer.

I voted no because I do not know what to do.  I will change my vote to maybe if I read some good ideas.

Here's the scenario:
My daughter has a friend she has known for a few years at school.  Last year my daughter and her friend entered high school and had classes together.  Her friend was an effeminate male from South America that was an average soccer player on the freshman team and below average student.  This year (September 2007) her friend shows up in female clothes, has a female name, and is on the school rooster with a female name.  I will call her "Sue".  Sue is 16.

The high school also has a cross dresser (I call call the CD David) that is a fashion designer that gave a show for the high school. David invited Sue to participate and Sue walked down the runway and got a standing ovation at the fashion show.  Sue is pretty.  (I did attend the fashion show and I invited myself.)

For those of you that know me I attended a transgender conference in secret for a week in my home town this past September and got the courage to tell my wife a second time which for whatever reason she did not understand the first time in March of 2007. She sort of understands it now but is totally against me telling the children or anyone else.

I regularly get updates on Sue and David at dinner from my wife and daughter.  (My son only talks about Sue and David to my wife.)  Therefore my wife and I talk about TG stuff in the open and my children think dad is real strange but they are unaware of my gender issues.

As far as I can tell Sue is a TS and she lives with her mom.  Sue went to South America in the summer and got breast implants at 16.  At the same time my wife tells me her voice is getting deeper, she has bad acne, and is shaving a slight beard.  My daughter tells me Sue was not getting hormones.

Hopefully you see the ethical dilemma.  Does Sue have to wait until she is 18 because her mom does not speak English?  Does Sue have to undo all this male stuff that will occur in the next two years?

I have never met Sue and I feel it is not my place to interfere.  However I feel Sue is going alone but does have her mom's support.  Is there something that I should do?  Is this the normal route for a 16 year old transsexual that speaks English as a second language?

What would you do in this situation?  Any suggestions?

[Jordan]

Wendy,

I would have your wife if possible attempt to talk to sue's mom, and see if she can get sue into therapy, the therapist will take it from there and try to help sue get hormones if possible.

[Steph]

Another approach would be to ask your daughter to let Sue and her Mom know that you are there to help in any way you can.  That way you haven't crossed any boundaries and it would be up to Sue and her Mom to contact you, it becomes their choice so really the ethics would be removed.  You wouldn't really be outing yourself to your daughter as you could simply say that you know of resources that would be of help to them.

Steph

[Jordan]

Hi, I just though about this for a while, and heres what has my interest peaked.

She is 16 not on hormones, but has breast implkants?

If she goes on hormones she will be very likely to grow larger breasts, and this could cause problems with the implants.

They may have very well thought this all through already.

Most TS people see how far hormones gets them in that dept, then considers BA, so I dunno.

[Sheila]

I think that going to the mom and helping her to find a therapist that will take Sue. By haveing implants all ready makes me feel that she is wanting to transition, but they don't have the proper paper work for meds. Talking with the mom won't hurt at all, afterall it is in confidence and Sue is practically out anyway.
Sheila

[Audrey]

Yeah I would have your daughter talk to sue about seeing a therapist who can help her out.  or you talking to her mother.  The potential risk of embarassment on your part will be outweighed by the potential improvement to sue's life.

My 2 sense

Audrey

[Tanya1]

wow- people really need some education!- you should inform sue's mom that simply getting breast implants are completely insufficient. she needs hormones NOT surgery. You always have to first get hormones to see how much breast growth you get, if it fixes the face somewhat and then opt for surgery.

I'd suggest the implants to be removed by a trusted surgeon and then get the hormones from the therapist.

female boobs with masculine features caused by T will look terrible and makes the body look uneven...Highly suggest you inform her mom the proper route because the way she is transitioning is completely incorrect and not effective in approach...

[Sarah]

I would help if you could.

[Wendy]

I am always impressed at the responsiveness of this forum.  I felt wrong to do nothing.

Another approach would be to ask your daughter to let Sue and her Mom know that you are there to help in any way you can.  That way you haven't crossed any boundaries and it would be up to Sue and her Mom to contact you, it becomes their choice so really the ethics would be removed.  You wouldn't really be outing yourself to your daughter as you could simply say that you know of resources that would be of help to them.
Steph

I read these responses on Sunday and then had an opportunity to take a walk (2.5 miles) with my 16 year old daughter on Sunday evening.  I asked her if she has any classes with Sue and she told me no.  However she does see Sue every day because Sue's locker in next to hers.

I found out the BA done on Sue in South America was a low budget job.  I hope the incisions did not destroy future breast tissue.  Sue has no brothers or sisters and her mom is a single parent.  Her mom speaks only Spanish and I do not speak Spanish. Sue's mom has little education and "poco dinero" (spelling?). Sue can not get hormones until she is 18.

She tried out for boys soccer this season but the boys coach would not let her play.  She tried out for girls soccer but the girls coach would not let her play.  However, she was very persistent and convinced the boys cross-country coach let her run.  She runs in her girl's jogging outfit, with her pigtails, and makeup. 

I asked my daughter if Sue liked guys.  She said yes.  I asked is Sue had a boyfriend and she said no.  I said then how do you know she likes guys.  My daughter told me that she (my daughter) likes guys and she (my daughter) does not have a boyfriend and Sue feels the same way. 

I told my daughter that the Renee Richards books that your mom bought me discussed the difficulties of transition for a person.  Will you have Sue go chat with mom (my wife) or I so that we can make sure she is O.K.?  My daughter said she would do that.  My daughter felt uncomfortable with me asking this many questions.

I am not sure my daughter will ask Sue to talk to my wife or me.  I doubt my daughter understands that a 16 year old MTF would have great success with breast development on hormones.

Sue currently is about 5'7" and 120 pounds.  She looks somewhat like a teenage boy but she is very pretty.  In fact one new teacher had her in his class for two weeks before the teacher found out that Sue was born a boy.  My daughter told me that Sue really tries to act like a girl in every way possible.

I changed my answer to yes I will help her if she requests help.  I would ask that her mom be present.

Posted on: January 29, 2008, 12:02:57 AM


Update.....  May 13th before bed..........


I started substituting math classes in the local High School that my children attend in May.  As fate would have it my son's varsity baseball coach asked if I would sub his class on Thursday May 8th.  I said sure.

It just happens that the 16 MTF that I was worried about in this thread does attend one of the classes that I was going to substitute.  I told my wife the night before I sub'ed that I need to write "Sue" a letter offering my help to her if she needs it.  My wife said that is a poor idea.  I wrote the letter anyway and asked her to proof it.  She said this is a bad idea but if you insist then give her the letter.

My wife convinced me the letter was a bad idea so that I abandoned the idea.  However I was determined to verbally offer my help if the opportunity presented itself.

Thursday came and I called role.  Of course I called the exact names on the role. 

My wife and daughter will not offer my help to Sue.  My daughter does not even know why I would be interested in helping Sue.  When I was 100% sure that Sue was identifed, I went over to Sue and asked her if she was "Sue".  (Remember I read the role and a girl answered to a boy's name.)

Sue was probably a little shorter than I stated earlier.  She was probably 5'6" and very thin.  I guess 110 to 120 pounds.  She wore a nice blouse covering a frilly white camisole, very short denim shorts and pink thong sandals.  Her dark brown hair was highlighted and covered her ears.  She also had a necklace.  The make-up was appropriate for a 16 year old girl.  The BA gave her a great figure and she was rather attractive.

She asked me how I knew her and I told her that I attended the fashion show that was done by "David" and I saw her.  I told her that she knows my daughter and wife.  I mentioned that she did a great job at the fashion show and got a standing ovation.  She said "Thank you" and was very shy but had a big smile.  I told her if she needs someone to talk to or in some way wants me to find something out for her that I would help.  She can contact either my daughter or wife to contact me. Her acne suggested that she was not taking female hormones which tend to do a nice job clearing up blemishes.

At the end of class I offered to help her again.  She only needed to contact my wife or daughter.  She then told me that David had another fashion show on Friday May 16th.

I figured that was the end of the story.  Thursday evening May 8th I told my wife that I chatted with Sue.  I did not discuss this topic with my 16 year old daughter.

On Friday afternoon May 9th I drove my wife and daughter to the hosting baseball team of the first round of the varsity State tournament.  (My son would play in both games for the double header and his sister was going to watch him with her parents.)  During the start of the trip my daughter in a very agitated voice tells me Sue came up to her this morning and asked why Sue is being discussed at my daughter's home.  My daughter told Sue that they were not discussing her but only complimenting her.  Then my daughter told me that, "Dad you are freaking me out!" 

Now I am agitated and turn to my wife and say, "See what is happening by me keeping secrets from my daughter!"  My daughter then asks, "What secrets are you keeping from me dad?"  I told her, "Well I should have told you that I talked to Sue."

Please notice that Sue can find my daughter the next morning.

On Monday May 12th my wife found David and asked him if he was having a fashion show on Friday the 16th.  He said yes.

Life sure is strange............  My youngest daughter wonders what is wrong with dad, her friend Sue wonders why I would offer her help, my wife will out right make a fib when the children ask questions about me, and I am trying to re-join society as a male.

Hmm.   Well I write very little on the forum these days and I am tired and will go to bed.  I think I'll wear Curve Crush this evening.  It helps me sleep.  I call it aroma therapy.

[NicholeW.]

Wendy, how close is Sue to Philadelphia?

The Mazzoni Center there does offer hormone prescriptions to children with the informed consent of their parent/s and has bi-lingual clincians. The mother would have to be able to understand what was being asked of her to legally give consent for Sue to receive the hormones and then they would need to be able to afford the prescriptions.

There's no cut-rate pricing on Spiro; however, the center will send a script to a compunding pharmacy for injectible estradiol. That cost is less than $50 for 3 months and if she requests that the script be sent to Kronos Pharmacy in Las Vegas the cost will be about $10 less than it is at the pharmacy used by the center. (Info available on the web.)

However, your involvement, particularly at the school as a sub, might be viewed as problematic by the school authorities, especially if Sue talks about it with others. I wouldn't know how you could go about giving her this info without possibly causing some suspicion to fall on you. So, I would imagine that you wife or daughter would have to do so.

My heart goes out to Sue, I recall what a devastating time puberty was for me. The dashing of so many hopes. And I understand your concern for her as well.

I'd simply hate for you to risk your own well-being by openly intervening. Is there anyone, a guidance counselor or some such trusted advisor that Sue could get the info from and you could speak with about it?

What a hard place for you to be in.

Hugs,

Nichole

 

[Eva Marie]

As much as you want to help sue I believe that as an employee of the school you are crossing a line and putting yourself into a potentially horribly compromised position by proceeding with your efforts. If sue's mom finds out that you are involved it could get really ugly for you. I expect that your school would push you out with a quickness if they discover the details of what you are trying to help sue with.

It might possibly be appropriate to discuss your concerns with a school counselor that might be able to work with sue, but i think that also that has a lot of potential risks to it.

I applaud your efforts to help sue, but i do believe that you have much to lose if things go wrong.

[Wendy]

Nicole and Riven,

You absolutely understand the situation.  If I had not listened to my wife then Sue would have a hand written note from me.  If this note got to the principal of the high school I would be black listed and possibly charged as a sexual predator.

Society would view my letter as an attempt by a 53 year old well-educated male to try to pick up an attractive 16-year old girl.

I was trying to do what my heart tells me is right not what society mandates me to do.

This has been such a lonely condition for me since I was young.  All these secrets. My wife frequently wakes up sobbing in the morning.  She is very worried about me.  In turn I feel very guilty and I start crying.

From what I can ascertain Sue is going alone but has the full support of her mom.  Sue seems to have several friends, enjoys being a girl and seems to be an absolutely delightful young lady.

...

Wendy, how close is Sue to Philadelphia?
The Mazzoni Center there does offer hormone prescriptions to children with the informed consent of their parent/s and has bi-lingual clincians. The mother would have to be able to understand what was being asked of her to legally give consent for Sue to receive the hormones and then they would need to be able to afford the prescriptions.

Nicole, Sue live in Atlanta.  Sue's mom is a single parent that speaks English as a second language. They have little money.  I think female hormones would have been a better investment than a BA done in South America.  Sue needs no facial femminization surgery and her voice is not too deep as of this time.  Sue seems to have her act together.  Her mom should tell her to wear shorts that are a little longer because they are shorter than the school dress code.  (The school officials are cutting Sue some slack on the shorts.)

A little humor aside from a serious topic.  My 16 year old daughter had a pair of denim shorts that were very short and she said were too big.  They were size 6.  (In fact the shorts looked similar to Sue's.)  Well a couple of weeks ago I was interested in seeing how tight they were.  One night I asked my wife does she think these (the shorts) would fit.  She said absolutely not.  I have lost over 50 pounds and I changed into a nice outfit.  My wife bursts out laughing when she sees me and says you look ridiculous!  She says those shorts are way too short for you!  To which I replied yes but the shorts fit me!... About a week later the two of us went in the evening to my daughter's high school band concert.  Guess what my wife was wearing? Yes the short shorts.  She said to me that she could wear them because she is short.  My daughter sees my wife at the concert with my daughter's shorts and says, "Mom you look ridiculous!  Those shorts are for teen age girls!"  I was laughing.  Hey my wife looked good!

If Sue asks for help I figured I could ask this forum for help.  However I could draw suspicion to myself which would not be good.

Here is what I expect to happen.  I will go to David's fashion show with my wife on Friday evening.  My wife and I will chat with David after the show and congratulate him on his brilliance.  (I think he will eventually become a top fashion designer in NYC.)  If Sue is not too shy she will join the crowd and I will get to compliment her on how pretty she looks and what a fine job she did modeling.  At the least we can give her a standing ovation during the show.  I will then back off and never see or talk to her again.  That is what society demands of me but somehow it feels wrong in my heart.

W
 

[Eva Marie]

Wendy - don't beat yourself up too much about this - your heart is in the right place even if you are in a position that you cannot help right now.

[NicholeW.]

O, Wendy.

I do so feel for your internal dilemma. I also feel for your personal safety and how your intervention will be viewed, possibly by the girl herself and her mother and even more by the school authorities and your neighbors.

Honey, I understand the tremendous empathy you have for Sue, but please be aware that sometimes the cards simply do not fall the way we would like them to fall. Given your own home sitaution and your unwillingness to divulge your personal feelinsg and life to your children I cannot imagine an unthreatening way to get info to Sue, not by you.

However, the Atlanta area has organizations that may well help if you will get in-touch with them & put a bee into their bonnets. I'm PMing you a list of four that Becky Allison has on her pages. And I recall some news items here from the past two or three weeks that had to do with the Atlanta Speech by Joe Solomonese of HRC at Southern Comfort that also listed some TG orgs in that area who were involved with a community outreach there.

If you are in Gwinnett or one of the counties surrounding Atlanta it might still be difficult for her to get into and out of the city to meet with those folks.

But, I do think that your own personal involvement with the girl places you in a great deal of jeopardy. Please do take care of yourself first and then, if you are able, perhaps you can help this girl.

All the best.

Hugs,

Nichole

[Wendy]

Nicole and Riven,

I felt Friday would never arrive.  I am laden with guilt and paranoia.  When I am alone with my wife any topic she brings up somehow I will tie it back to TG.  She told me my skin looks really pretty this week.  I turned to her and said does it look like a girl's skin?  To which she replies, "Can you just say thank you and stop the TG stuff before you make me cry?"  I told her thank you and changed the topic.

I then asked my wife, "Do you think I did the correct thing to offer help to Sue?"  My wife then turned to me and said, "Absolutely!"   I then said, "Why are you that certain?" My wife replied, "If you did not offer to help Sue you would whine every single day this entire summer that you should have done it!"

I told you I am lucky to have such a wonderful wife.

Friday finally came.  My wife and I attended David's fashion show.  About 50 people attended the show so that we had a seat right on the runway.  The first act had about twelve models and no Sue.  I now turn to my wife and said, "Do you think I have scared Sue and she did not show for the performance?"  My wife replied, "She told you about the fashion show!" 

The first person of the second act is Sue.  She looks great.  She has a pretty red outfit and walks better than many of the models in 4 inch heels.  We all clap for her.  Few models look into the audience and Sue was no exception.  We all clapped for her again when she appeared a second time in act four.  I did compliment her by her name when she passed by. 

When the show ended David and all the models made a continuous line and walked down the runway.  When Sue passed me she turned and gave me a big smile.  I turned to my wife in bewilderment and my wife said, "Sue just smiled at you."

After the show we had a good conversation with David.  He did a great job and is very talented.  I did want to tell Sue that she did a great job too but she must have exited using the back door of the stage.

My wife and I hung around the school for a while and I told my wife that it would have been nice if I could have told Sue she did great.  As we were about to exit the building we say a group of girls posing for digital pictures.  Guess who walks right by me?  I turn to Sue and tell her she did great.  She says thanks.  I then said, "Sue you looked great!"  She said with a big smile, "Thanks."

Sue continued to pose for the camera with the other girls.  My wife said Sue reminded her of Christine Jorgensen in front of the camera.

Wow.  Last year my daughter described Sue as a shy depressed boy and now I saw Sue as a happy, extroverted and pretty girl.

The school year is ending.  I do not think Sue's mom was at the fashion show to see her daughter.  I do know that Sue's mom supports Sue's decision and I think Sue has made the correct decision for herself.

Nicole your suggestion to get information to Sue via an intermediary is a nice idea. I am not sure of the intermediary.

I feel good inside so that I know I made the right decision to approach Sue.

I am also glad that I got to write on this forum.

Thanks.
W