Public reaction to "Man in a dress"

[Renate]

I always start with the presumption that most people are well meaning and polite.

I would like to know how you think that the public reacts to someone that they perceive to be a "man in a dress".
That is, someone who they identify as being genetically male but clearly dressed as a female when the person
is politely and unselfconsciously engaged in a low-key manner with everyday shopping in, say, a supermarket.
Specifically it is meant a person trying to look female and not actively trying to be a "gender-bender".

Would a polite John Q. Public address the MIAD as "Sir" as an act of presumed consideration?
Would a polite John Q. Public address the MIAD as "Ma'am" as an act of presumed consideration?

[lady amarant]

That is a very good question, and I suppose it would depend entirely on the person. I think the interplay of shock and tolerance would play a major part in the reaction - in other words, how 'used' to gender variance the person is. I think a very polite person that maybe hasn't been too exposed will use sir, and might even ask a question or two, whereas somebody who is tolerant and aware would use ms. An intollerant person, aware or not, would probably end up calling you something else entirely.

[lady amarant]

I've run into this situation a few times, only recently have I reacted instead of letting it slide.

I received a "Thank you, sir" recently.  I replied in a friendly, polite and good-natured way,
"It's ma'am, a bit of a stretch, but still ma'am".  I received a polite, sincere and apologetic, "Thank you, ma'am."

I don't think that I was being overly apologetic for the situation.
I did want to acknowledge that from some perspective their confusion was understandable.

Renate

I find that "friendly and good-natured" overcomes most initial resistance. Luckily London is a good place to practice. Lots of grumpy people here... 

[Shana A]

Renate, I think the way you handled it was great.

Once I was sir'd very intentionally, like the person wanted to make sure that I knew that he knew that I was "a man in a dress"... I wish I'd had a better comeback, but was flustered and didn't say anything.

Z

[Rachael]

When i had to dress as a boy for my grandmothers funeral, i got treated as a badly passing f2m... people treated me MORE female, when they percived i was trying to be seen as a boy... nasty sure, some were ok, some wernt, but in general, i was treated more as a girl playing boy...
Depends on who you are, where you are, what they are like...
R >

[Keira]

I think that if your "in a dress" the reaction is stronger.
Its as if the more off kilter you seem, the less respect they'll
give you.

If your in girl jeans and top and light makeup, they maleness
of whatever may stand out less than if your dressed ultra-girly.

Some people are asses and will sir you no matter what unless
your passable enough that there's a risk that this assumption of
being male could be right or wrong. Then they'll err on side of caution.

Anyway, in a service situation, you are queen, if somebody disses you, correct them and if they're being a smart ass about it, go to the manager. Your money is still money and unless your disturbing the clients by shopping in a wedding dress and 5 inch pumps, its as good as any...

[katy19]

well, if this person made no effort to look the part, then my perception would be that this person is a male doing this for reasons that have nothing to do with being a female on the inside.  but thats just first appearance, i suppose if i got to know the person would be a different story...

[AmyDanielleTG]

Well, in my case, I am not at the point where I can't do everything I can to appear as female on the outside as I am on the inside.  So, here are my thoughts.

I have only gotten one ma'am and that was a couple weeks ago.  Prior to that I got a confused "sir or oh I mean ma'am".  This was just after I introduced a wig so that I could have long hair while I am in public as Amy.  Prior to that, I never have gotten a "ma'am".  Always "sir".  Lately, I have gotten no "sir" or "ma'am". 

One time I had a fortune in a fortune cookie that stated something like, "Be simple in your dress."  Well, I noticed that is some good advice.  When I try to over do it, I stick out more.  However, if I keep it simple, I am more relaxed and confident and people respond better. 

I usually have no issues while in public.  Out in public for me was the first place I could be myself because at home or anywhere else were off limits.  Now that I have been living on my own, things have improved and I am myself all the time except at work.

Anyway, back onto the strict topic of a man in a dress.  This question is being asked to a group of TG people who don't feel that they are men in dresses.  So, in my opinion, I have to think of it as a "male" in a dress these days. 

Prior to accepting the fact that I am female already (at least on the inside) rather than just wanting to be female, I tried the "man in a dress" thing as a way to cope with my gender issues.  I figured that if I could be happy as a man in a dress, then I would not have to become a woman in a dress.  That didn't work so I am now beginning to become that woman.  But, during the man in a dress days, it was always "sir". 

Like I said, it was the addition of a wig that significantly reduced the number of "sirs". 

So to sum things up, just wearing girls clothes without no other efforts and you in your mind see yourself as a guy, then you will get called sir.

Amy

[Keira]

I'll state something Renate.
Your bluntness just means that I won't continue posting
in this thread. Hey. If you want a headtrip response
with very tight parameters, do a simulation, or
do some lab experiment, cause your
not looking for real life.

[Rachael]

To restate some points to maintain coherency:

• This topic is not about passing, please don't post anything in that vein.
• This topic has nothing to do with your feelings.
• This topic is operating on the presumption of well meaning and polite people.
• The MIAD is trying to present modestly as female.
• The Public Person has identified the MIAD as a genetic male for whatever reason.
• The Public Person has noticed that the MIAD is dressed as a female for whatever reason.

The topic is how does the Public Person address the MIAD and what is their presumed logic.

Renate.

No such well meaning or polite person exists... 'wellmeaning' to them, may be siring the 'miad'

Your topic is too narrow a view to yeild any actual results because your stating the type of person, and the result already...
the person you consider here, would undoubtably ma'am the miad....
in reality, that type of person is few and far between...
R

[Kate]

I'm not sure *I* would know what to do, to be honest. I live in an area with a huge gay population, so how do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him. I say SIR, and if it's someone with GID, I hurt her terribly.

I'm sure The Public goes through the same debate at times, and in a way, saying SIR is a safer guess - especially since The Public is more familiar with gays than GID.

~Kate~

[shanetastic]

I hope this isn't too off topic but what if you just try to avoid pronouns? Maybe the general public just tries to avoid them in an ability to just not be mean nor really nice?

[Alyssa M.]

I knew a guy in high school who was neither gay nor transgendered (or at least, he was not being open about either), but who on a couple of occasions showed up to school in a skirt. Just for kicks, basically. Nobody ma'amed him, and he gave no indication that anyone should. Probably not what you're looking for?

In public, with (sorry, need a real example) a non-passing trans woman, most people will take cues from the company she keeps. (I speaking from experience of several times in the past with a VERY boyish haircut, badly mismatched clothes, etc... ) Being with one or two companions and interacting as a group of women will at least raise enough doubt in a well-intentioned and reasonably polite person to avoid using "sir" -- or possibly any other gendered language (as shanetastic said). Plurals work too, as in "ladies" (said by a restaurant host/hostess leading a group to a table)

[Shana A]

I hope this isn't too off topic but what if you just try to avoid pronouns? Maybe the general public just tries to avoid them in an ability to just not be mean nor really nice?

Great answer! I'd rather someone not call me anything than to be sir'd...

Z

[RebeccaFog]

I know a woman who's gotten sir'd.  I think she just says, "I'm a woman".

[Hypatia]

Once, before I was able to pass, I had the phrase "F|_|ckin ->-bleeped-<-got!" shouted at me in public.

Posted on: March 02, 2008, 06:51:44 PM

how do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him.

Is there really anyone like that? Sounds doubtful. If a gay man were that feminine, he wouldn't mind being called ma'am, might even take it as a compliment or at least be indifferent. If he wanted to assert his maleness, he wouldn't be in a dress.

[Kate]

how do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him.

Is there really anyone like that? Sounds doubtful. If a gay man were that feminine, he wouldn't mind being called ma'am, might even take it as a compliment or at least be indifferent. If he wanted to assert his maleness, he wouldn't be in a dress.

I dunno. A drag queen, in theory at least, still identifies as a male. Outside of the club and away from their act do you respect their gender identity? Or their presentation (which could be an "act" as much as an expression)?

I'm just imagining myself out buying snacks and encountering someone like this, an obvious male in female attire. Are they a non-passing M2F? Are they a male-identifying crossdresser just having fun? An androgyne? A gay drag queen? Or even a transtioning F2M still wearing women's clothing because they don't realize they pass yet?

~Kate~

[NicholeW.]

how do I know that the person isn't simply an effeminate gay man? I say MAAM, and he's insulted and thinks I'm making fun of him.

Is there really anyone like that? Sounds doubtful. If a gay man were that feminine, he wouldn't mind being called ma'am, might even take it as a compliment or at least be indifferent. If he wanted to assert his maleness, he wouldn't be in a dress.

I dunno. A drag queen, in theory at least, still identifies as a male. Outside of the club and away from their act do you respect their gender identity? Or their presentation (which could be an "act" as much as an expression)?

I'm just imagining myself out buying snacks and encountering someone like this, an obvious male in female attire. Are they a non-passing M2F? Are they a male-identifying crossdresser just having fun? An androgyne? A gay drag queen? Or even a transtioning F2M still wearing women's clothing because they don't realize they pass yet?

~Kate~

Kate, you should shop a bit down by the river!!  You might well have that experience in a couple of the shops from time-to-time!!!  I have.

The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

Nichole

[RebeccaFog]

just say "Hi" and see how they respond.

[mickiejr1815]

since i work in service (automotive) some people still insult me and refer to me as male, but for customers if i can't really tell, i ask how they prefer to be addressed so that they are addressed properly, adn having the kind of memory i do, i remember most of my customers. i think this way is best to aoid confusion on everyone's part.



Mickie