More Differences between TS & CD/TV

[Debtv]

Hi Stephanie,

Missed you too! I been struggleing in my life....not with my tgism...rather $. My Isp is temp as I'm, digging myself out of poorness.

I'm gonna talk about this...and I love you Stephanie...but you and I are both tg...but live and think differently.

Did he know you were tg? Are you saying he thought he was dancing with a gg?
I imagine you liked that thought....that he was and it tickled you.

Ya know how we talked about tv verses ts and if our desires are 'real' or 'chosen'?

I love you and your view....so I'm not talkin about you. But, in my view...I need to say this.....

My reality is being honest...before I ever danced with a dude (and I would and have) I would demand that they know I'm tg.

The thing we have in common is we both are born tg...how we deal with it is different. Your desire to be femme is true and known....and so is mine. We are much alike. I have read your post here for years...and they have made me grow close to you. You are a brave woman. But let me enfluence you about your ideas that being a tv is a choice.

My rant: Since 96 I been online and have felt discrimination from my ts sisters. I have been told my tvism is a "choice', that I'm 'playing" at gender and that I'm just 'pretending" from my ts sisters. It has really hurt my feelings. I mean I'm dealing with my strong tg desires and my ts sisters belittle me for it...more than my straight friends do. Why is that?

My speculation is this....My ts sisters are so wraped up in 'becomming' themselves that they HAVE to beleive in only two genders. It must be imortant for them to think that they are the only serious ones about gender. Somehow to be ts means that you cannot accept anyone who is bi-gender.

So you went out and passed and danced with a man....who thought you was a woman. How sweet.... Actulaity I'm proud and happy for you...right on. You are  a special person to me....smart and clever....very uncommon! lol Is this what being ts is about? to pass and fade away into our gender culture?

But I was talkin about how you ts's HAVE to think us TV/cd are just playing at it. Why is that? Is it the bi gender thing?" Either you are male or female...no other thing makes sence? Is it that you ts's are mad at us tv/s for being able to be either sex? What is it sis?

Out of all my ts siters I have met...I think that you Stephanie and I could mayby figure this out.....

Shurly out of all my ts sisters you could see that we tv/cd are on the same path as you....except with different expectations. I hope you do not have to belittle tv/cd to make youeself feel better about being a transexual. I do not think this is the way it is.

In my view...a TS ought to respect and admire all tv/cd. Why? Because we all deal with the same culture blocks, we both deal with it and we both understand the real meaning of 'gender'.

This is my stab at our mutual meanings with my ts sisters...I want that badly.  Sadly to say... and un-said is my real view. I'm gonna say it now...and my ts sisters I mean no offence....In my view as a tv/cd the shrinks are taking advandage of my ts sisters by telling them that self/mutulation is their path to happieness. In my view....we all can be happy with who (or what gender) we are. As a tg sister I do know that for some of my tg sisters it is heaver for them than me......that said....I love all my tg sisters and wish we all were on the same side....as we ALL face advercity.

Love
Debtv



Only in love
Debtv

[Sandi]

Steph,

Glad you had a good time. I also love to dance, but at my age I am not overwhelmed with requests. I envy your younger years, not because I miss my youth so much as I miss the wasted years. It would have been nice to start transition when I was a lot younger. I missed so much.

Yes I'm a little green.


Huggs,
Sandi
______________________________

Deb,

Hope you dig your way back to prosperity soon, and I know what it is like to do without the things one is used to. After by-pass surgery I went about 3 months without any income. Then it took seeminly forever to catch back up with only unemployment checks for a few months.

Now let me make some points about the rest of your post.

Of course you and Steph think differently, that is because TS and TV think differently, have different goals and desires. Though one can also be diagnosed as being TS and TV, as well having varied combinations and severities of either.

My reality is being honest...before I ever danced with a dude (and I would and have) I would demand that they know I'm tg.

There is nothing at all wrong with that as it is who you are, however so is Steph being honest in revealing who she is. The difference is that as a TV you know you also love being male and want to spend time in that mode also, and maybe honesty influences you to reveal that there is also a maleness about you. Steph doesn't have that maleness, hence no need to reveal. So you both simply reveal what lies within your core.

But let me enfluence you about your ideas that being a tv is a choice.

Don't know about others, but I wouldn't tell you that it is a choice, nor would I attempt to even form an opinion for that part of a debate. Why and how you became you (or a TS for that matter) is not important, nor is it relevant to the differences between TS and/or TV.

I mean I'm dealing with my strong tg desires and my ts sisters belittle me for it...more than my straight friends do. Why is that?

For 8 years I have haunted these forums (with a couple of vacations for a few months) and though there have been a few skirmishes through the years. When I first started coming here in 98, good lord Jody used to drive me to tears at times, but looking back on it, she was right more often than not, although she didn't always use good tact. I hope none have been too acerbic towards you though, you certainly don't deserve it. Often those in the TG community don't exercise emotional restraint and see other TG members through glasses tainted by their own austere bias' and experiences. Yet in spite of the lack of decorum by some we shouldn't pretend that there are not many different goals and feelings between TS/TV either. There are.

But I was talkin about how you ts's HAVE to think us TV/cd are just playing at it. Why is that? Is it the bi gender thing?" Either you are male or female...no other thing makes sence? Is it that you ts's are mad at us tv/s for being able to be either sex? What is it sis?

Well I believe that there are only two genders, but there is nothing saying that one can't be both of them in varying degrees. And while you can be more than one gender, or present as either sex, you can only physically be one (either) sex. As far as gender, what would they identify as other than male, female or both in some degree? It would be presumptuous of me to claim you have to be one or the other. If one has characterists of both genders or only TV, I wouldn't call it playing. But if one is more comfortable in either, then I would presume to guess that that gender is more predominant.

But as you speak of SRS as "self/mutulation," so you obviously don't understand the feelings and desires of a TS. To make a statement like that, your male side seems to be horrified at the very thought. Those that are strongly TS on the other hand welcome the thought and would never think of it as self mutilation. Maybe it is your own failure to undstand a TS's feelings and desires that causes you to feel short-changes in being understood by them.

Shurly out of all my ts sisters you could see that we tv/cd are on the same path as you....except with different expectations.

I know you directed that at Steph, but let me offer my two cents. We share many of the same feelings and desires, but not only are the expectations different, so are the paths. The path for a TS is in one direction only, to completion of transtition. A transition that is complete when they are happy with where they are at, whether than involves surgery or HRT may or may not be a part of it. The path for a TV is back, forth and in-between the two genders, not to play, but to express who they are, but always coming back to their male side. I don't include FTM TVism because it would not be noticable if it exists at all because of wide acceptance for females presenting as male by society.

Anyway it is nice to see you. Hope you soon get situated where you can stop by more often.

Huggs,
Sandi

[Annie Social]

Congratulations, Steph! It sounds like you had a great time. I'm so jealous; I ended up sitting at home all weekend


Deb...

...In my view as a tv/cd the shrinks are taking advandage of my ts sisters by telling them that self/mutulation is their path to happieness.

Two points here; first, as Sandi points out, the fact that you see SRS as self-mutilation is a sign of the gulf between us; most of us see it as fixing a birth defect, the correction of a mistake. Your referring to it as self-mutilation will win you no friends among us; it is as offensive as someone saying that you are just playing at being a girl, or that you're just a gay guy who wants to attract straight men. Both statements show an ignorance of the other's needs and motivations.

Secondly, I have never heard of a therapist telling anyone that SRS is the path to happiness; indeed, most go to the other extreme, pointing out that you will still be the same person after surgery with the same problems. We don't see it as a magic bullet that will cure all our ills, but as the removal of one obstacle that makes it more difficult for us to lead normal lives, and gets in the way of dealing with our other issues.

We have a lot in common. We should share and celebrate those commonalities, while recognizing the differences. We are each who we are; if you demand respect for your situation, begin by showing it for ours.

Annie

[michelle]

Life is a path we walk alone.  Paths cross,  We stop to have coffee and share.   Some times paths run parallel, sometimes on the same line.  But the inner struggle is our own.  In order to share we try to create a reality,  which are just really parallel universes.   We can empathize, sympathize, try and understand each other, but not live each others lives.  Inevitably our words just describe our own universe which no one can ever totally understand.   I have been around as Michelle here since around 2000.   I owe my present reality to this place.   My presents in the physical world has changed.  I now longer haunt the southwest,  but live in hyperspace.    Change is change.  Our physical body's change.  We are apart of nature.  What difference does it make if we change ourselves or a car wreck or some natural disaster does.   Each person has to come to terms with his/her physical body in terms of their own inner reality.  Why argue about it.   If we all gathered and walked down the street together would there be any more or less differences than there would be within any large group of people?   We need to all care for each other.   I believe that we are our souls and spirits and not our physical bodies.   Each of us does what we have to do and can do and can live with for now.

[Chaunte]

I am going to jump into the conversation.

I would like to offer that both viewpoints are correct.  It depends on where you are in the spectrum.

Wearing your spouse's undies as a prelude to sex is a game both partners play, and it is a choice.  You don't necessarily have to wear the clothing to be stimulated.  You don't necessarily perceive yourself as the opposite sex/correct gender.

Outside of that, I suggest that genetics come into play.

I will stand by my hypothesis/speculation that our entire transgender/transexual community is based on various amounts of genetic material that we receive.  The more genetic material that does not match our birth-sex, the stronger the drive is to correct our birth-sex to match our gender.  (Gender being what we think of ourselves as.  Birth-sex being the reproductive genetalia we are born with.)

For some of us, simply being able to express ones correct gender on occassion is enough to keep the psyche satisfied.  The drive may not be very strong.  The drive might be met through simply watching "Tootsie" or "Some Like It Hot."  It might be a choice in terms of expressing the weak drive.

For others, living a large percentage of thier life in the correct gender is necessary to satisfy this internal drive.  There may be no need or desire to change one's birth-sex to match one's gender.  But expressing yourself as the correct gender is crutial to maintaining your sanity.  (Otherwise, you end up as a Dr. Jeckyll & Ms. Hyde!  Let's see...  Who is it that has been describing herself like this...?  )

The transexual community is the end of the spectrum.  This group has the greatest amount of genetic material that does not match their birth-sex.  It becomes imperative to correct this psyche/physiology imbalance. 

All of this comes down to how our brains are wired through our genetics.

Before we get into a knock-down catfight, can we call a truce and agree that, depending on the person, both sides are correct?

Chaunte

[stephanie_craxford]

Hello Deb.

I'm so glad that you posted a reply.  I was beginning to think that my words may have cost me a friend, and that was never my intention.  That is one of the reasons why I wanted to take the other thread on this subject off the boards and to discuss it privately.

Of course we are different it's a part of what makes us who we are, and we should never loose sight of that or compromise on that either.  And before i go on Deb I just want to assure you that these are my opinions, right or wrong, based on what I have read and experienced.

Hi Stephanie,

Missed you too! I been struggleing in my life....not with my tgism...rather $. My Isp is temp as I'm, digging myself out of poorness.

First off I hope that this is just a temporay situation and that you find yourself back on your feet soon.  We face many hardships being who we are but we don't need it complicated by financial issues, thats for sure.

I'm gonna talk about this...and I love you Stephanie...but you and I are both tg...but live and think differently.

Did he know you were tg? Are you saying he thought he was dancing with a gg?
I imagine you liked that thought....that he was and it tickled you.

Ya know how we talked about tv verses ts and if our desires are 'real' or 'chosen'?

I love you and your view....so I'm not talkin about you. But, in my view...I need to say this.....

My reality is being honest...before I ever danced with a dude (and I would and have) I would demand that they know I'm tg.

I don't know may be I'm being deceitful in the eyes of some but to me I am a woman so there was no need to tell any of the men who I danced with that night that I was other than a woman.  I was not there to seeking relationships I was there to enjoy myself, have fun, dance, and be the person that I am.  One thing i know that i would be a whole lot prudent if I was seeking a relationship.

The thing we have in common is we both are born tg...how we deal with it is different. Your desire to be femme is true and known....and so is mine. We are much alike. I have read your post here for years...and they have made me grow close to you. You are a brave woman. But let me enfluence you about your ideas that being a tv is a choice.

My rant: Since 96 I been online and have felt discrimination from my ts sisters. I have been told my tvism is a "choice', that I'm 'playing" at gender and that I'm just 'pretending" from my ts sisters. It has really hurt my feelings. I mean I'm dealing with my strong tg desires and my ts sisters belittle me for it...more than my straight friends do. Why is that?

My speculation is this....My ts sisters are so wraped up in 'becomming' themselves that they HAVE to beleive in only two genders. It must be imortant for them to think that they are the only serious ones about gender. Somehow to be ts means that you cannot accept anyone who is bi-gender.

So you went out and passed and danced with a man....who thought you was a woman. How sweet.... Actulaity I'm proud and happy for you...right on. You are  a special person to me....smart and clever....very uncommon! lol Is this what being ts is about? to pass and fade away into our gender culture?

But I was talkin about how you ts's HAVE to think us TV/cd are just playing at it. Why is that? Is it the bi gender thing?" Either you are male or female...no other thing makes sence? Is it that you ts's are mad at us tv/s for being able to be either sex? What is it sis?

What you say Deb could very well be true, but I still feel that what you have described is the biggest difference between us, and there is nothing wrong with that.  I am a woman period, and my only wish in life is to be able to pass through a crowded room and be accepted and treated for what and who I am.  That maybe a little simplistic, but that's me in a nut shell.

For me belief has nothing to do with it, I know who I am, and it has nothing to do with how many genders there are as my only concern is the gender that I am and that is female.  I don't have time to worry about the other genders lol.  But I can see where you may get the impression that we {TS} are all "wraped up in becoming ourselves".  Now please, please don't take this the wrong way, but I know that many will be hurt by this including you Deb but I don't have choice, whereas CD/TV's do in that generally speaking a CD/TV when confronted with a life changing threat, obstacle, issue, setback, critical de-scission time, or however else you want to describe it can, when the chips are down, revert back (choice), TS can't.  I am NOT saying that CD/TV are "playing at it" as what they do is every bit as important to them as TS is to me.  There is no difference between us that way, and there is nothing wrong with you choosing as I believe that by definition that is a part of being CD/TV and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, it is who you are.

Out of all my ts siters I have met...I think that you Stephanie and I could mayby figure this out.....

Shurly out of all my ts sisters you could see that we tv/cd are on the same path as you....except with different expectations. I hope you do not have to belittle tv/cd to make youeself feel better about being a transexual. I do not think this is the way it is.

In my view...a TS ought to respect and admire all tv/cd. Why? Because we all deal with the same culture blocks, we both deal with it and we both understand the real meaning of 'gender'.

This is my stab at our mutual meanings with my ts sisters...I want that badly.  Sadly to say... and un-said is my real view. I'm gonna say it now...and my ts sisters I mean no offence....In my view as a tv/cd the shrinks are taking advandage of my ts sisters by telling them that self/mutulation is their path to happieness. In my view....we all can be happy with who (or what gender) we are. As a tg sister I do know that for some of my tg sisters it is heaver for them than me......that said....I love all my tg sisters and wish we all were on the same side....as we ALL face advercity.

Love
Debtv

Thanks so much for the sentiments Deb as I know that the issues is not as strong as the bond that we have:)

I'll echo what Annie has said that basically any therapist who would suggest such a thing should loose their license to practice as they above all others should know that being TS has nothing to do with SRS/GRS

Only in love
Debtv

So if you ever get up my way can we go for drinks and drive the guys crazy

Love ya,

Steph


Posted at: April 30, 2006, 12:51:04 PM

Before we get into a knock-down catfight, can we call a truce and agree that, depending on the person, both sides are correct?

Chaunte

Hello Chaunte.

Always the wise one.   I like your thoughts.  And on the cat fight, there's no way I would let it denegrate into that, my friends at Susan's are far more important than differances of opinions

Steph

[Sandi]

All of this comes down to how our brains are wired through our genetics.

That may or may not be true, though an outcome I would happily accept. There is no data to prove or disprove that being TS, TV or any other TG flavor is due to genetics.

Before we get into a knock-down catfight, can we call a truce and agree that, depending on the person, both sides are correct?

In many areas we can agree that that is true yes, but not if in doing so I have to agree to things like SRS is "self/mutilation." However, if the posting drops to the level where a "truce" is needed, I will be one of the first to drop out of the thread. That is a much better position for me than agreeing just to assuage someone's sensitivities and feelings.

Nothing is gained when differences are way too obvious by agreeing where there is no accord.

[michelle]

Humans are apart of nature too.   Time, life, and nature bring changes to every living thing.  People have plastic surgery to alter birth defects.  That is not considered self mutalation because it makes us appear more normal.  I don't see how SRS is any different.   It does not disfigure the body just make it appear more normal.  Normal physical appearance is  culturally determined.   

[Debtv]

Hi,

I want to say that I do love and respect my ts sisters. In many ways I do feel I understand them. I know being a ts is hard and respect all of you. I do not think ses is self-mutilation...rather it is the only way to be congruent. I would love to have a female clone created of myself and have my brain transplanted into myself. I quess for myself, srs is just too scary.

Love
DebTV

PS I have always admired you and your thoughtfull post Stephanie...and I would love to visit you and tease the men! lol

[TheBattler]

I would love to have a female clone created of myself and have my brain transplanted into myself. I quess for myself, srs is just too scary.

Love
DebTV

Hi Deb,

Just remember that there are many CD/TV out there who do not consider SRS as appropriate for themselves. I for one even though I have often wondered what it would like to be a woman do not consider SRS to approprate. I enjoy dressing female and last weekend proved to myself that there is a lot of feminity within me, but SRS is just not appropriate because I can live with my male parts sometimes I also enjoy being male.

I guess what I am trying to say is to be yourself. If SRS is not appropriate then do not worry. There are many like us out there.

Alice

[Chaunte]

That may or may not be true, though an outcome I would happily accept. There is no data to prove or disprove that being TS, TV or any other TG flavor is due to genetics.

Sandi,

You are absolutely correct.  There is no hard data to support my speculation/hypothesis.  I would like to offer some circumstantial evidence.  First, it is safe to assume that no single gene makes us male or female, either physically or emotionally.  There must be a key number of genes that come into play to drive our anatomy and psychology.

Second, during the first stage of meiosis (which forms the sperm and egg), DNA is at its most fragile.  This is where new traits are added into the gene pool by chromosomes bumping into each other and exchagning partial strands of DNA.

Given these two facts, it is logical to assume that there can be a partial transfer of traits that determine our sex and gender.  This transfer would have to have the same statistical probability as adding any other new trait into the human gene pool.

Given this statistical probability and the hormonal exposure the embryo/fetus receives in-utero, it is logical to assume that children would be born with their sex and gender at various levels of compatability.  This would easily explain the observed variation in the transgender community that we have here at Susans.

Chaunte

(I'll stop being a Vulcan for a little while now.  Live long and prosper.)

[michelle]

In utero we are exposed to every aspect of our mother's emotional, psychological, and physical activities in relating to her invironment.   Who knows maybe those memories are stronger in some of us than we could ever imagine.     Just speculation.

[Heather Rose]

Sisters,

I guess I'll jump into the fray. Please do not take this as an attack on anyone, as it is just me putting into words what has been in my head for a long time.

Some people state that there are only two sexes, especially God-fearing folk. They say, someone "must" be either one or the other. Hmmm....I wunder did the same god create the individuals born as intersexed and how must these people feel about that statment? If it is possible to be born with the genitals of both sexes, why is it impossible to be born with two gender identities?

Im glad the professional practitioners, who know all and have their livelyhoods invested in the promotion and protection of the medical industrial complex, are there to "fix" some of these poor souls who were born with this "problem", in many cases, without their consent or imput. Imagine what it was like for these poeple who were physically two sexes, before the advent of modern "medicine"

I'm sorry, if you haven't noticed, I find it difficult to trust an industry who finds more profit in the disease than the cure, We can and should demand better.


 
<HeatherRose> steps down from her soap box

[Sandi]

Some people state that there are only two sexes, especially God-fearing folk. They say, someone "must" be either one or the other. Hmmm....I wunder did the same god create the individuals born as intersexed and how must these people feel about that statment? If it is possible to be born with the genitals of both sexes, why is it impossible to be born with two gender identities?

Maybe you misunderstood my post. I stated that there were two sexes male and female. But I also said that you don't have to be one or the other. Whether one is either gender, or any varying degrees of both, you are still dealing only with two sexes. That is the same for physical sex (either or born intersexed) as well as for gender.

Being born intersexed doesn't make one a third sex, it is simply a combination of the two. Having  the mental gender consisting of both male and female doesn't make you a third gender, it is simply a combination of the two. So yes, there are only two physical sexes and two genders.

[Heather Rose]

Sandi,

Like I said, my post wasn't directed at anyone in particular but I thank-you for your response. We are in agreement, I think. I am concerned about the infighting that I see happening amongst the "individuals" in the "transgender community", I use the term "transgender community" at the risk of being acused of being a devider, with an us against them mentality.

I feel we are all individuals, each with our own likes, dislikes, limitations and goals. I accept you for your faults and assets and however you define yourself. I hope I can help you if and when you needed it, as I hope you'll be there for me. We are the only ones that we can rely upon to have the slightest inkling as to what it is like to live in this skin

When a group of poeple spends it time fighting amongst it self, it cannot hope to make any forward progress, in fact it will lose ground that has been gained by those who came before them.


Always love,
Heather Rose

[HelenW]

When a group of people spends it time fighting amongst it self, it cannot hope to make any forward progress .  .   .

I have to agree with this.  I think this subject is very much in danger of becomming embroiled in basically meaningless labels and semantics, the result of which can be misunderstandings and hurt feelings based on them.

I mean, when it comes down to it, who of us really cares "exactly" where the others land on the spectrum?  I have enough trouble figuring out where I am to worry about what others are experiencing. 

Our similarities grossly outweigh our differences.  Let's keep that in mind!

helen

[stephanie_craxford]

Helen & Heather.

While I understand your concerns this thread is being continued at the request of members, and so far there is no evidence that it is being harmful or divisive, and I haven't seen evidence of fighting either.  Lets hope it stays that way.  What I do see is evidence of members posting their thoughts and opinions, some a little stronger than others.  I would hate to think that any of us are that naive to think that we are all warm and cuddly under the TG umbrella.  We should not live with our head in the sand, scared to face reality hoping that issues will fall by the wayside because they won't.

You are quite right when you say that we are all part of a community but we are also not sheep and we should not be afraid to discuss our differences in an open forum, in a civil manner, according to the rules.  I would argue that it is our diversity that makes us strong, and that recognizing our differences also makes us strong, because through each other we learn, I learn about CD's, TV's, TS's the Inter-sexed, the bi-sexed, the Gay's the Lesbians etc...  I learn what issues, hardships, concerns, beefs, and everything else associated with being a part of that group.

Challenging ourselves this way forces us to lean who and what we are, what makes us different, forces us to stand up for ourselves, and if we are able to do that in a safe haven such as Susan's then I see that as a good thing.

Just my thoughts

Steph

[Heather Rose]

Stephanie,

I also have not observed any fighting nor any harmful or divisive behaviour in any of these posts. As I said in my first post, I was only putting into words what had been in my head for a long time. That which I wrote, was from observations I've made from life experience, chat, other forum postings and conversations with others in the transgender community. I wrote only in hopes of providing food for thought, not to provoke.

I am very thankful that this forum exists to provide us a place to vent, rant and exchange thoughts and information.

Always love,
Heather Rose 

[Leigh]

 I don't see that there are many similarities between a person who is identified as a cd and those who are in or have transitioned.

If things go bad, moving due to fear or embarassment won't change a thing.  I am the same person 24/7/365/forever.  There is no alternative for me, no refuge to retreat to.

Maybe in some ways those who can survive with a dual identity are stronger than I am.

Leigh

[Chaunte]

Maybe in some ways those who can survive with a dual identity are stronger than I am.

Leigh

I don't know, Leigh.  I am finding that having a dual identity is taking a terrible toll on me.

Chaunte