Got to thinking about genetics... (WARNING: Science Geek alert!)

[Dennis]

No, your post is still there. Although it was touching some lines, the responses were well thought out and it didn't degnerate into a flame war.

Dennis

[Chynna]

I'm a go out on a tree branch here and defend critical_thinker.

He's entitled to his respectfully given opinion just as we are ours.
Afterall we can close our minds to any possiblities if we do that we become no better than those close minded individuals who Judge us. For if we are affraid of opposition then we are afraid to be wrong.

so in regards to ONLY one of his\her comments:

Chaute, as being a transgendered woman, are you any good at math? Or odds? Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised. Sometimes, imbalances in the brain occur, yes, (not genetic) but come on, this isn't coincidence. You want your kid transgender, you have fun expressing it. Don't pin it on genetics. Pin it on your parents, who had some part in this. Fetish, whatever, its all progressive, you're not flat out normal not normal when your born.

This is quite possible considering children learn by what they see..Mind you Im not saying it's accurate but it is a possibility. But only time will tell that has her son matures into his own personality for as we all know you can only force a person to be what you want them to be for so long....if thats the case.

In any case the individual was at the very least respectful with his\or her opinion

Open to explorer all possibilities
Chynna

[HelenW]

He's entitled to his respectfully given opinion just as we are ours.

I agree with Chynna's statement but this was not stated as an opinion:

Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised.

It was stated as fact, there were no qualifyers, eg "I believe...", "I think...", etc.  These views were disproven decades ago.

True critical thought requires a thorough knowledge of all the pertinent facts.  Critical_Thinker obviously needs to do some more homework.

The Nature/Nurture argument has been going on for decades and the consensus that I see which has emerged is an agreement by all reasonable persons that both, to varying degrees, have a significant effect on the development of human beings.  No one has ever definitively proven what causes transsexualism or homosexuality or even how heterosexuality is formed in humans.  We have more evidence for rather than against the idea that transsexualism is caused by a hormonal imbalance during pregnancy.  Has that been tested?  In other primates, yes it has.  But not in humans.  How could a test in humans be done without a very real chance of doing grave harm?  Until someone figures out how to ethically prove that , in humans, the conditions encountered by the fetus during pregnancy cause transsexuality, we'll just have to live with the uncertainty and sometimes wonder and speculate about what it really could be.

helen

[Chynna]

HelenW,

I respectfully disagree.

Put two women as two parents, to a budding young man, odds are he's going to be gay, transgender, whatever. Thats whats doing it, its how you're raised.

The phrase "odds are" is indicating that this person is not in fact stating this is definitly a fact. "odds are" indicates this person is aware that there are other possible out comes to this scenerio. However, in his "opinion" he's pretty sure it will happen.

look at it like this Odds are you wouldn't gamble on a sure thing.

However only he knows what he was actually trying to say!
and you have to give the individual credit for at least trying to understand "us" by even carry on a dialect with "us"

Chynna

PS. I do however feel he needs to live up to his name and do some Critical thinking  himself

[Chaunte]

Excuse me....

As I said, I reported observations.  Nothing more.

Does anyone here really think I would raise my son to be transgendered or gay? 

Does anyone here really believe that this can even be done?!

Ladies and gentlemen, think about the personal hell most of us have gone through in coming to terms with our ->-bleeped-<-!  Did we choose this, or is this something that is innate within us? 
Would any of us really choose to be transgendered?!

Would any of us do this to a child?  Would any parent do this to a child?

Of course not.

Nor does "Chaunte" exist inside the home.  Thus there is nothing to be "picked up on" by him.

I do consider the comments made by "Critical" to be insulting and ingorant.  Maybe bigoted as well.  I consider the entire tone of his note to be a flame.  (I am assuming a particular gender based on wording and text pattern.)

Don't bother responding, "Critical."  You are on my ignore list.  Until proven otherwise, I DO consider you a troll and a petaQ.

Chaunte


Posted at: June 05, 2006, 08:25:54 PM

Not scientific at all, but I don't know a single lesbian couple with a gay or trans child, and I do know lots of lesbian couples with children. Although I know one adult lesbian with a lesbian mother, but she was raised by her mother and her father before her mother came out.

And, there is no actual scientific evidence either that children raised by two women (or two men) are statistically more likely to be gay or trans.

There is some evidence of a genetic link, but it's equally clear that it's not a 1:1 correlation - gay parents, gay kids. As far as trans, the evidence does indicate pre-natal hormone exposure, but it's difficult to test. There is considerable evidence that you cannot force a child to be other than his or her nature. Most notably, that evidence is from Milton Diamond, whose work discrediting John Money is well known.

As far as Chaunte pushing this on her child, she was remarkably restrained in her response. It's highly offensive to impute that to her. That child is just lucky he is growing up in an environment that is not going to judge him for expressing himself.

Dennis

Dennis,

Thank you.  I appreciate that.

Chaunte

[jan c]

#1, a troll. shoulda ignored it.

#2. 'the odds are' were in context of a statement that was indeed presented as 'the facts' -
EG: "THAT'S WHAT'S DOING IT." Saying that the "odds are*" something indicates you know what those odds are. There was no evidence of any odds I might add. *IS. ARE. FACTUAL ASSERTIONS.

and I really don't think it was ultimately anything but a troll, came out the gate deceptively is all.
Wanted to upset some folks he don't like.

. Oh well, maybe I'll get involved in another topic.

"maybe I'll go flame some other thread..."

[Chaunte]

ANd thank you to all my brothers and sisters here.

You have no idea just how much I appreciate your support.

Chaunte

[Chynna]

Chaunte,

I do sincerly apologize to you if I have offended you in any way. I did not intend to agree or even suggest that YOU would intentional raise your child to be transgendered or gay. I was just merly pointing out the fact that there are people in this world who do damage thier children.

Does anyone here really think I would raise my son to be transgendered or gay? 

Does anyone here really believe that this can even be done?!

I wouldn't believe that there are people who molest, abuse, & even kill children but there are.
So from an outsiders stand point it is "possible" for an individual to force there beliefs or feelings on there children. Im not saying you personnal are in anyway.
So I again hope if I did offend you that you accept my apologie because that was not my intent at all.

Chynna

[Annie Social]

True critical thought requires a thorough knowledge of all the pertinent facts.

As opposed to only those that support one's pre-existing agenda, which this so called "critical thinker" clearly has.

Have you ever noticed that the only people who say "I am not a troll" are trolls?

Annie

[Chaunte]

Chaunte,

I do sincerly apologize to you if I have offended you in any way. I did not intend to agree or even suggest that YOU would intentional raise your child to be transgendered or gay. I was just merly pointing out the fact that there are people in this world who do damage thier children.
I wouldn't believe that there are people who molest, abuse, & even kill children but there are.
So from an outsiders stand point it is "possible" for an individual to force there beliefs or feelings on there children. Im not saying you personnal are in anyway.
So I again hope if I did offend you that you accept my apologie because that was not my intent at all.

Chynna

Chynna,

You haven't offended me.  This ... taHqeq simply got my dander up!

I can disagree with people about many things and still call them friend.  Mess with my kids or make unfounded accusations about them, and the warrior comes out.

THat's the problem with being half Irish and half German.  THe Irish side will get angry and the German side will carry it out! 

Chaunte

[jan c]

THat's the problem with being half Irish and half German.  THe Irish side will get angry and the German side will carry it out! 

Chaunte

LOL
that IS a harsh combo Chaunte
we've been forewarned people.

[Dennis]

I'm just glad I'm on her good side <3

Dennis

[Annie Social]

Oh, I'm not worried. Chaunte is a good person ...aside from wanting to invade Poland every so often. 

Annie

[Kate]

THat's the problem with being half Irish and half German.  THe Irish side will get angry and the German side will carry it out!

ROFL, I love it... SO true. On so many levels, lol...

[Chaunte]

Oh, I'm not worried. Chaunte is a good person ...aside from wanting to invade Poland every so often. 

Annie

I can't help it!  Polish sausage with a good pint of stout is a meal worth going to war over!

You know, if you hit someone with a kielbassa you can be charged with "a sausage and battery."
(Say it outloud to appreciate the humor.)

And when the Vikings attacked ol' Erin, we were left feeling Thor.

Chaunte

[michelles]

This is a great thread, for multiple reasons.

The main topic is something I wonder about all the time.  I know little to nothing about genetics, but I still wonder what happened to make me this way.  Something that I have always thought interesting is my mom was so sure that I was going to be a girl that her and my dad didn't even pick a boys name for me.  Although this could be really be anything even her deep desire to have had a girl and nothing to do with genetics and/or hormones during pregnancy, but it does make me think.

While I don't agree with the way Critical_Thinker chose to say it I do wonder if how I was raised affected that part of me.  Not that the part of me that I feel is more female than male would have been gone, but would I have chosen a different way to express it.  I suppose that wouldn't change the fact that I am TG just where on the spectrum I would fall.

It would be fun to know why if for nothing else than to have that knowledge.  The problem would come from what is done with that knowledge (but that is probably another topic all together).


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.

[Kaitlyn]

Sometimes I've thought about it, just because I've wondered about some little things. And I guess in some ways it'd be nice to know the physical scientific cause, just as a reassurance and also to know why I turned out this way. But at the same time, I'm hesitant because knowing exactly what causes me to think the way I do sort of... takes away from my self identity. What if they had found that cause in the past... and 'fixed' it? I wouldn't even be 'me', even though it's the same body.

I sometimes feel the same way about psychology and neuroscience in general. Analyzing and knowing why people do things both intrigues me and frightens me. At the rate science is advancing, sometimes I'm worried that we'll understand ourselves so well that we'll hardly think of ourselves as more than advanced machines, and 'free will' will be revealed to be little more than a complicated form of cause and effect. What a thought...

[Melissa]

What if they had found that cause in the past... and 'fixed' it? I wouldn't even be 'me', even though it's the same body.

I remember having that same thought when I started out.  Once I realized I was in complete control of myself and my transition, that fear quickly went away.

At the rate science is advancing, sometimes I'm worried that we'll understand ourselves so well that we'll hardly think of ourselves as more than advanced machines, and 'free will' will be revealed to be little more than a complicated form of cause and effect.

This is my belief about how insects and other simpler things in nature work.

Melissa

[Chaunte]

This is a great thread, for multiple reasons.

The main topic is something I wonder about all the time.  I know little to nothing about genetics, but I still wonder what happened to make me this way.  Something that I have always thought interesting is my mom was so sure that I was going to be a girl that her and my dad didn't even pick a boys name for me.  Although this could be really be anything even her deep desire to have had a girl and nothing to do with genetics and/or hormones during pregnancy, but it does make me think.

While I don't agree with the way Critical_Thinker chose to say it I do wonder if how I was raised affected that part of me.  Not that the part of me that I feel is more female than male would have been gone, but would I have chosen a different way to express it.  I suppose that wouldn't change the fact that I am TG just where on the spectrum I would fall.

It would be fun to know why if for nothing else than to have that knowledge.  The problem would come from what is done with that knowledge (but that is probably another topic all together).


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.


The other great thing about this thread is what it shows from the people on Susans.  How you supported Chaunte was wonderful.  For someone like me that joined just recently shows how supportive this group can be.

Nature versus Nurture is a fair question, especially if it is worded politely.

Looking back to my childhood, I can not think of even a single incident that would suggest nurturing is what has made me tg/ts.  I am absolutely convinced that my father, a psychiatrist, would never have allowed that to happen.  Back in the early 60's, when I was a wee child, this just didn't happen.  ANd, thanks to the Cuban Missile Crisis, my mother conceived a daughter, so there was no maternal desire to have a daughter by hook or by crook.

Of course, a single data point proves nothing either way.  It would make an interesting poll, and I think I will set that up shortly.

Michelles - You are right.  One of the reasons I love this ... home! is because of how people rally around someone in trouble.  Whether it be emotional trouble, physical problems or being harassed by some troll.  Maybe its my naivete, but I think you will find the regular contributors here at Susan's to be some of the most honest and forthright people you will ever meet.

Chaunte

[michelles]

Sometimes I've thought about it, just because I've wondered about some little things. And I guess in some ways it'd be nice to know the physical scientific cause, just as a reassurance and also to know why I turned out this way. But at the same time, I'm hesitant because knowing exactly what causes me to think the way I do sort of... takes away from my self identity. What if they had found that cause in the past... and 'fixed' it? I wouldn't even be 'me', even though it's the same body.

I agree I have three kids and if there had been the option to "fix" anything about them I know I would have missed out on a world of expierences. 

I sometimes feel the same way about psychology and neuroscience in general. Analyzing and knowing why people do things both intrigues me and frightens me. At the rate science is advancing, sometimes I'm worried that we'll understand ourselves so well that we'll hardly think of ourselves as more than advanced machines, and 'free will' will be revealed to be little more than a complicated form of cause and effect. What a thought...

I have the same thought, but I am always comforted by the fact that even if we are machines we are way more advanced then we will ever be able to understand and we change every second. 

Nature versus Nurture is a fair question, especially if it is worded politely.

Looking back to my childhood, I can not think of even a single incident that would suggest nurturing is what has made me tg/ts.  I am absolutely convinced that my father, a psychiatrist, would never have allowed that to happen.  Back in the early 60's, when I was a wee child, this just didn't happen.  ANd, thanks to the Cuban Missile Crisis, my mother conceived a daughter, so there was no maternal desire to have a daughter by hook or by crook.

I agree, I don't believe there was anything in my childhood that would have made me this way.  What makes me wonder is what the real effect of an answer to a simple question.  My kids ask me questions all the time and I have wondered what my tone, expression, and wording could really effect.  Although I know with my kids, even if I did everything exactly the same, they would all still be completely different people.