O, the Irony... (Controversy possible, please keep it nice)

[Alyssa M.]

How can I get a finger to point to itself? It kinda hurts to try it!

It's pretty easy if you use Perl. (But then again, what isn't?)

Code Select Expand


#!/usr/bin/perl

my ($ref, $deref, $refref);
$ref = \$ref; # omg self-ref!!!
$deref = $$ref;
$refref = \$ref;
print "This is a reference:       $ref\n";
print "This is what it refers to: $deref\n";
print "This is a reference to it: $refref\n";
exit;


Here's the command line:

Code Select Expand


> ./ref.pl
This is a reference:       REF(0x9d32c90)
This is what it refers to: REF(0x9d32c90)
This is a reference to it: REF(0x9d32c90)
>


[Anonymouse]

How can I get a finger to point to itself? It kinda hurts to try it!

N~
[/quote]

Luckily zen wisdon is somewhat more flexible than your finger 

Ann

[NicholeW.]

Luckily zen wisdon is somewhat more flexible than your finger 

Ann

The zen wisdom I have no problem with. It's that Escher-bit that points to the Zen wisdom I'm having some difficulty with. 

Ok, let me walk up these stairs, now these, now these and now these, whew, lots flights!!

O, Goddess!! Wait, this crack looks just too familiar!! It is!! It's the crack in the original landing I began on, down there, or is it up here??!!

N~

[Anonymouse]

The zen wisdom I have no problem with. It's that Escher-bit that points to the Zen wisdom I'm having some difficulty with. 

Ok, let me walk up these stairs, now these, now these and now these, whew, lots flights!!

O, Goddess!! Wait, this crack looks just too familiar!! It is!! It's the crack in the original landing I began on, down there, or is it up here??!!

N~

Drawing Hands was always my favorite.

I seem to have climbed those steps many times before I stepped off and found my own path.

Ann

[Lisbeth]

Or, indeed, the finger pointing at itself as if it were pointing at the moon.

Ok, you win.

Now, please explain to me how to do something I just cannot seem to do with my body and I am curious about what the trick is.

How can I get a finger to point to itself? It kinda hurts to try it!

N~

Maybe you should take yoga.  *grin*

[lady amarant]

But, you've got to believe in yourself. You are quite lovely, dear. I am pretty certain that more men than you want to imagine have found you attractive and desirable. You just haven't run across one yet who has the moxie and the confidence, or the impertinence and gall, to tell you that. 

I have to agree with Nichole on this Kate. Granted, I only saw that one picture, but that picture was amazing - blurry phone-camera-work and all.

Men are a generally simple bunch. They need to feel secure, and when confronted by a beautiful woman, they aren't. There is a rather horrid but fairly accurate thing as far as men's attitudes toward women I've heard said by some real 'dudes' in my brother's circle of acquaintances. I won't repeat here, but I'm sure you'll have come across it, or some version of it, yourself. Basically, it boils down to pretty women being for sport, and ugly women for settling down and having kids. I find that revolting, but it illustrates why I am horrified by the idea that I might actually be developing an attraction to men.

[NicholeW.]

... Basically, it boils down to pretty women being for sport, and ugly women for settling down and having kids. I find that revolting, but it illustrates why I am horrified by the idea that I might actually be developing an attraction to men.

You planning to be 'sport' prey or 'domestic servant' prey, Simone? 

Sad, but true analysis though. I long to never be with a partner whose largest compliment toward my sex is "Why! I'd f... her!!"

I always realize when I've heard that (2-3 times) directed at me or other women: "No, arschloch, you wouldn't. Why does it even strike you that you might rise to the least standard of any of us?!!"

Nichole

[Ell]

... Basically, it boils down to pretty women being for sport, and ugly women for settling down and having kids. I find that revolting, but it illustrates why I am horrified by the idea that I might actually be developing an attraction to men.

You planning to be 'sport' prey or 'domestic servant' prey, Simone? 

Sad, but true analysis though. I long to never be with a partner whose largest compliment toward my sex is "Why! I'd f... her!!"


Nichole

what i've been trying to tell you, Sage, is that it works both ways.

i once had a gf who only told me she loved me during orgasms. it made me feel so badly...

-ellie

[NicholeW.]

... Basically, it boils down to pretty women being for sport, and ugly women for settling down and having kids. I find that revolting, but it illustrates why I am horrified by the idea that I might actually be developing an attraction to men.

You planning to be 'sport' prey or 'domestic servant' prey, Simone? 

Sad, but true analysis though. I long to never be with a partner whose largest compliment toward my sex is "Why! I'd f... her!!"


Nichole

what i've been trying to tell you, Sage, is that it works both ways.

i once had a gf who only told me she loved me during orgasms. it made me feel so badly...

-ellie

O, don't fool yourself, Ellie. I understand that women are as capable of that sort crass objectification as men. But, your instance is the exception from my experience, not the rule.

My experience of men is just the opposite.

N~

[Hypatia]

The power dynamic in both racism and sexism is not equal both ways, and that is what matters the most. Hence the imperative need for feminism.

[Ell]

... Basically, it boils down to pretty women being for sport, and ugly women for settling down and having kids. I find that revolting, but it illustrates why I am horrified by the idea that I might actually be developing an attraction to men.

You planning to be 'sport' prey or 'domestic servant' prey, Simone? 

Sad, but true analysis though. I long to never be with a partner whose largest compliment toward my sex is "Why! I'd f... her!!"


Nichole

what i've been trying to tell you, Sage, is that it works both ways.

i once had a gf who only told me she loved me during orgasms. it made me feel so badly...

-ellie

O, don't fool yourself, Ellie. I understand that women are as capable of that sort crass objectification as men. But, your instance is the exception from my experience, not the rule.

My experience of men is just the opposite.

N~

But i'm not fooling myself. as i was telling one who is near and dear to me, i've had only four really great relationships in my life. two were with women, two were with men. there are some really great men out there. and there are some really great women, too. and yes, great numbers in each category who have, um, difficulties of some sort. haven't you ever experienced a time in your life when you, yourself, were...difficult?

-ellie

[NicholeW.]

The power dynamic in both racism and sexism is not equal both ways, and that is what matters the most. Hence the imperative need for feminism.

A definite truth that is generally ignored.

Does Louis Farrakhan hate whites and is it a bad thing he does. He does, it is. However, his ability to wreak damage to whites is far, far less than our ability to demean and harm him.

Many people seem to think that when they declare that 'segregation' or 'objectification' has ended and is bad that the battle stops then. Yet, the ingrained habits of hundreds or thousands of years and the beliefs and cultural/social institutions that are erected on the basis of those 'old' truisms are not all wiped away by decree. They linger and color all aspects of the interactions between women and men and blacks and caucs for decades, centuries and millenia after the decrees are issued.

The so-called 'playing-field' is not equalized by simply deciding to allow the other team to take the pitch when your team's strikers have the ball 6 yards in front of an empty net! It's too easy to make a self-fulfilling declaration at that point of "See, I told you they'd never be able to hold their own."

Nichole

Posted on: April 18, 2008, 02:32:46 PM

... haven't you ever experienced a time in your life when you, yourself, were...difficult?

-ellie

Of course not, luv!! 

Oops, yes, a few times, actually. But, only when attempting to defend feminism to a group of unsympathetically-inclined women of a transsexual history!!   

Nichole, Dressed in A Sage-gown

[Ell]

uh huh

[lady amarant]

You can't just remove an imbalance and say 'problem solved'. The effects of said imbalance have to be corrected as well. White people in South Africa are quick to shout: "Leave the past in the past, Apartheid is over!" but the effects of Apartheid are still deeply ingrained in attitudes and beliefs, in socio-economic inequality, in learning, in access to opportunities, in earnings, in everything.

Much of society hasn't even gotten so far as to admit that women have been wronged at all, let alone correcting things. Yeah, a lot is happening, but the glass ceiling is still there. Men still earn more than women doing the same job. Women are still expected to be a servant around house and home and to wait on the menfolk, no matter what the situation might be as far as career and earnings. Feminism is still necessary. Hopefully that will not always be the case, but for now it is.

Feminism isn't just for women though. Earlier in the thread, a comment was made that men are as much slaves to patriarchy as women are, and I think that is true, to some extent. I mean, as a guy, I qualified with a degree in programming, as was expected of me, and should by all accounts have gone on to rule the world, or something to that effect. The fact that I gave it up to go teach English to little Taiwanese kids, drift around South Africa and go to a Buddhist monastery before ending up in London working as a nurse ... well, let's just say that is not seen in ANYTHING like a favourable light. In many ways, I was already "a traitor to my kind", and really, I think being trans didn't come as much of a shock to anybody, though perhaps a surprise. Guys are expected to fulfil certain roles, and society often deals harshly with them if they go against that.

~Simone.

[Ell]

Mmm hm, but lots of mothers don't want their boys to femme out, and are very careful about the chores they assign. as far that goes, i busted my booty doing boy chores as a youth. give me a break.

i didn't cook, iron, or do laundry, but mom didn't mow the lawn, do heavy gardening projects involving large stones and railroad ties, drill a well, clean the pool, work on the driveway, wash the car, work on the car, rake the leaves, clean the rain gutters, remodel the basement, replace plumbing pipes, move heavy furniture, paint exterior walls and fences, fertilize & water the lawn, clean the garage, etc., &tc.

Sheesh! anyone who says that men have nothing to do around the house is, well, really full of it awfully wrong.

-ell

ps.
however, i think my mom suspected that i was going to femme out eventually, anyway. but she really tried to slap me out of it, bless her heart.