knowing when you pass

[Just Mandy]

Amanda, you will arrive at this stage in your own good time. Trust yourself, trust the transformational process. It just takes time, and before you know it, you too will achieve success. It's kind of Zen... becoming successful by forgetting all about success.

That is probably the key... I know it takes time but I want to pass now... lol... I don't want to wait on HRT even
though I KNOW I need to. I'm sure it will work based on my results so far but it seems like time is standing still. I
hope I look back this time next year and laugh at my self for how impatient I was.

I cringe at how some go out, just not caring about how they present themselves.  That gives us all a bad name.  We don't all have to pass every time, and we probably never will.  But that is no excuse for not doing our best to put forward a positive image.  While I know I will never look like a supermodel, I don't want to be unpassable because of simple laziness. 

I really realy feel like I've been given a gift with HRT and a second chance at living and I can't imagine getting
to the point where I don't care about my apperance. Is it really laziness or is it just that girls get so comfortable
that passing no longer matters or is it the view that I've heard lately that you just develop the mindset that you
don't care if you pass or not?

Amanda

[Berliegh]

Kate, while I agree that trying too hard makes a girl just that much less passable, the truth is that, as Cindiana Jones likes to say, we need to practice the craft.  I'll be honest, I practice whenever I get the chance.  Sometimes I look at my makeup and just start all over. 

I never wear make up and if I'm shopping I wear jeans, boots and a casual top and jacket. I don't tie my hair up and I am seen as a normal female and have never been percieved as a transsexual. This may be due to a very long time period in transition and the fact that I have always been fairly androgenous from an early age. I haven't ever practiced anything and always just be myself.

The best thing is to be relaxed and get on with things...

[Just Mandy]

Thanks Berliegh , I don't feel the need to practice anything and I am just being me and I would never
try to act or be fake. But unfortunately without make up I'm not androgynous at all or at least I don't see it. But
I know you are right I just need to loosen up and "get on with things". Thanks

Amanda

[Suzy]

Berliegh,
The one thing you have on most here is experience.  Of course, what you have described is where everyone wants to be, and with time should be.  I still believe that many who have had a lot of male conditioning need to learn and practice.  There is just no substitute for being in an around a group of girls.  Of course, that goes away with time.  Those around me will tell you that I am also not a fancy dresser, a mostly jeans girl.  I think that's irrelevant.  So is makeup, though I happen to like it.  It varies with region, personal taste, etc.  Your passable mannerisms have to become yours at some point.  They become unconscious.  That's when all is not fake.  There is no more pretending.  But that kind of switch does not happen over night for most of us.   I think it took me a good year of being in public before I felt I had crossed that barrier.  As gorgeous as you are, Berliegh, I have no doubt you have no trouble passing, ever.  I look in your eyes and see nothing but girl.  I can't say that about everyone here.  Just doing what is natural is fine, as long as what is natural is female, not a leftover male marker.  To find out those things, you really need feedback from someone who is brutally honest.  I am talking about things like how you hold you shoulders, what your arms do when you walk, your facial expressions, how you greet people, how you order food, how to look in your purse when you are checking out at a store, etc. ad nauseum   I do not ever really think about those things any more.  I don't need to.  But the right advice from the right person at the right time has been a wonderful thing to receive.

Kristi

[Kate]

I can't imagine getting to the point where I don't care about my apperance. Is it really laziness or is it just that girls get so comfortable that passing no longer matters...

For myself, I don't relate makeup and clothes with passing. If someone realizes I was born male, it's going to because of the angular features of my face, not because of a lack of makeup or the non-feminine clothes I'm wearing. If I put on makeup or nicer clothes, it's generally because I think I look nicer that way, not because it makes me more passable.

So for me, skipping makeup and going out in jeans and a casual top isn't being lazy about passing... it's just not a factor in it.

~Kate~

[Just Mandy]

For myself, I don't relate makeup and clothes with passing. If someone realizes I was born male, it's going to because of the angular features of my face, not because of a lack of makeup or the non-feminine clothes I'm wearing. If I put on makeup or nicer clothes, it's generally because I think I look nicer that way, not because it makes me more passable.

So for me, skipping makeup and going out in jeans and a casual top isn't being lazy about passing... it's just not a factor in it.

I can see that. There is no way I'd come REMOTELY close to passing without makeup so my whole way of
thinking centers around that. Once (or if) I could pass without makeup I'm sure I would could
run out without it... but right now that's not an option

So yea, I do see how it's not laziness at all... as long as your passable without it, makeup should
not be a factor as you say.

Amanda

[Melissa]

Here are some other possibilities (not for the feint of heart):  Go around a bunch of teenage girls.  That will get you read if anything will.

Heh, what if you are good friends with a bunch of teenage girls and yet they still don't know?  Does that count?    When I was in the musical last year, the majority of actors were teenage girls whom I made friends with.  Plus there was the changing in the locker room in front of them.

I observe girls and try emulate what they do and how they do it.

While this is a good initial approach to learning some basics for socialization, there eventually comes a point in transition where you need to realize that it's not all about passing.  It's about being yourself and who you really are.

Just about every MTF TS exclaims "I am a woman inside and always have been."  If that is so, then you should be able to have enough faith in yourself that you can stop trying to "emulate" others and just be yourself.  That is the big secret of transition and it's what makes the biggest difference in whether somebody passes or not, because it allows you to be both confident and relaxed.  It's so simple that just about everybody overlooks it too.

[Just Mandy]

Heh, what if you are good friends with a bunch of teenage girls and yet they still don't know?  Does that count?  When I was in the musical last year, the majority of actors were teenage girls whom I made friends with.  Plus there was the changing in the locker room in front of them.

Yea... that counts... that counts pretty much big time ...and hey... I want to play that game

I really envy everyone that's made it to that point right now.

Amanda

[Melissa]

I really envy everyone that's made it to that point right now.

I used to as well.

[Kate]

Just about every MTF TS exclaims "I am a woman inside and always have been."  If that is so, then have should be able to have enough faith in yourself that you can stop trying to "emulate" others and just be yourself.  That is the big secret of transition and it's what makes the biggest difference in whether somebody passes or not...

And also, IMHO, it's the difference between being accepted and treated with respect when you DON'T pass, or being demeaned and insulted for it.

~Kate~

[Suzy]

Heh, what if you are good friends with a bunch of teenage girls and yet they still don't know?  Does that count?   

Yes, Melissa, I would say that counts.    One of my turning points is when I ran into my teenage niece in a store shopping for clothes.  She still has no idea.

While this is a good initial approach to learning some basics for socialization, there eventually comes a point in transition where you need to realize that it's not all about passing.  It's about being yourself and who you really are.

I don't think what we are saying is mutually exclusive.  We are talking about different phases.  I thought the subject here was when you first realize you pass.  Perhaps I was wrong.  Certainly it is not all about passing, but for me it does include passing.  I guess I am hopelessly vain, but I just want to be a woman, not a woman with an asterisk in everybody's mind.  Maybe someday I will gain the maturity to think otherwise, but that is honestly where I am right now.

Kristi

[Keira]

I don't get the thing that some say that emulating
other women is not being yourself,
who you are is formed in contact with others,
that''s what socialisation is all about.
If that was not the case what would the nurture vs nature
argument be all about?

Who you are is formed in constant contact with others,
including women. If other women believe your a man (not passing),
your not going to socialize quite in the same way as if they
belive your one of theirs. This is a sad fact, but a fact regardless...

If you feel that this kind of emulating is some sort of "not being yourself",
well you kinda missing the boat. The emulation is natural anyway, every
peer group men, women, same race, tend to take from one another,
its a natural human trait as a social animal, there's nothing forced about it.

[Suzy]

Keira,

I could not agree more.  Look at it this way:  Place yourself in another culture (for example, an Arab culture or a Tibetan Buddhist culture) and act the exact same way you do now.  It may be true to "what's inside you" but you will not be part of that female culture.  Soon, you will be acting different as society and you interact.  That is part of our formational process.  You may also shape culture to some extent, but as we all know, being female is not simply a biological process.  Even within the United States, we have seen here on this board that there is a great deal of difference between the norms in various parts of the country.  We may push the norms, but basically we strive for one side or the other.  If this were not true, by definition there would be no such thing as GID.  We are a living dialectic: always in the process of becoming.  And the direction of the change is due, at least in part, to our interactions with others.  So the way we are treated by others, perceived by others, plays a huge role in who we are.  If we are never treated as female we cannot belong to the female culture in the same way that a natal female would.  However, if we are treated as female (dare I say "pass") by other females, that interaction will, by its very nature, change us.  IMHO, it will have a role in making us female.  Of course we have to decide first on our identity to determine if we wish to participate in that culture.  But if the answer is yes, we cannot do it in a vacuum.  We do it both inwardly and in the context of society. 

What does this have to do with passing?  Very simply, emulation is a very natural part of who we are as complex human beings.  We are social creatures.  We can claim not to care, and to a certain extent that is healthy for self-differentiation.  But in the final analysis,  being male or female is not entirely an individual action.  It implies interaction and a certain set of norms dictated by culture.

[Rachael]

Agreed, if acting male is being 'you' maybe some things arnt as clear cut?

Im with K here... Humans act.

FACT.

its just life, social interaction is a practiced role, you let that guard down with people you know and so do they. Its just how it is.

Take my best friend, shes a strong, slightly punky hard woman, shes the sort of girl whos very independent, and powerful and knows her beauty.

When shes alone with me or our other friends, the scared little girl comes out, the girl lacking self confidence, and fearing things....

EVERYONE acts. its a defense mechanism.
R >

[NicholeW.]

Knowing when you pass?

When you no longer even think about passing. You simply lead a woman's life.

N~

[Yvonne]

I don't get the thing that some say that emulating
other women is not being yourself,
who you are is formed in contact with others,
that''s what socialisation is all about.
If that was not the case what would the nurture vs nature
argument be all about?

Who you are is formed in constant contact with others,
including women. If other women believe your a man (not passing),
your not going to socialize quite in the same way as if they
belive your one of theirs. This is a sad fact, but a fact regardless...

If you feel that this kind of emulating is some sort of "not being yourself",
well you kinda missing the boat. The emulation is natural anyway, every
peer group men, women, same race, tend to take from one another,
its a natural human trait as a social animal, there's nothing forced about it.

Agreed.  How do bio gals learn to be women?  Why do they talk the same, act the same,  move the same if they're not emulating & being themselves at the same time!

Posted on: April 17, 2008, 01:47:47 PMFor the answer of this topic.  Voila:

Knowing when you pass?

When you no longer even think about passing. You simply lead a woman's life.

N~