Androgynees vs Tomboys and Femboys?

[Nero]

Bear with me, still trying to 'get' all this.

What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
Difference other than personal identification (the tomboy still ids as female)? Because isn't the tomboy both male and female in personality?

Disclaimer before Nero gets run out of the forest: I'm not challenging the validity of androgyny as a gender. Just curious as to what the differences are.

[Pica Pica]

I think the difference is that a tomboys and femboys are not male and female in personality. Femboys are males with feminine traits, habits and displayed characteristics, but these are feminine traits that express not only a male identity but male concerns - only that is translated into a feminine manner.

I think an androgyne is behaving the way that feels right and it comes out as male and female, but the intentions and the concerns are a-gendered concerns.

I think the trouble of trying to understand androgynes through ideas of gender is that androgynes (by definition) don't have much grasp on gender, androgyne behaviour is only gendered in retrospect or learnt societal rules after the fact.

So, yeah - the fem/tomboy know their actions are gendered while the androgyne only know it after the fact or not at all, or have to have it pointed out to them.

[Nero]

I think the difference is that a tomboys and femboys are not male and female in personality. Femboys are males with feminine traits, habits and displayed characteristics, but these are feminine traits that express not only a male identity but male concerns - only that is translated into a feminine manner.

Hmm never heard of that before. Interesting. Could you provide an example of a male expressing male concerns in a feminine way?

[Shana A]

Bear with me, still trying to 'get' all this.

What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
Difference other than personal identification (the tomboy still ids as female)? Because isn't the tomboy both male and female in personality?

Disclaimer before Nero gets run out of the forest: I'm not challenging the validity of androgyny as a gender. Just curious as to what the differences are.

Not to worry Nero, we wouldn't chase you out of the forest. Unless of course you fail to show up bearing the proper gift offerings 

A tomboy presumably still identifies as female, and the femboy likewise considers themselves to be male. I can't speak for others, however this androgyne is neither male or female.

Z

[Pica Pica]

I dunno, what are male concerns?

[Nero]

lol you're the one that just used that term.

male concerns, male concerns... dunno. I'm male so all my concerns are male. I wouldn't recognize the difference.

well you're both aren'tcha? you tell me.

[Pica Pica]

no, I'm neither.
Makes these conversations a bit difficult sometimes (see above post, 3rd baby paragraph.)

[Nero]

no, I'm neither.
Makes these conversations a bit difficult sometimes (see above post, 3rd baby paragraph.)

Or maybe you're not androgynee at all. Maybe you're just Pica - a gender unto itself.

[sd]

What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?
Difference other than personal identification (the tomboy still ids as female)? Because isn't the tomboy both male and female in personality?

The tomboy does not feel as though she is a boy, she knows that she is a girl in sex and gender. The opposite goes for a feminine boy, he knows he is still a boy. They incorporate the traits and dress in the manner traditional of the opposite sex/gender.

Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.

[Pica Pica]

Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.

they do don't they? and when they don't it seems to be a decision. That seems like an important piece of t'puzzle, thanks.

[Shana A]

Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.

My traits have always tended more toward female than male, which is why things initially seemed right to me when I came to the realization I was TS.

Although I currently dress as male, it's because of work, etc. In a perfect world, where one didn't have to fear for one's safety if they didn't conform to societal gender expression, I would choose to dress much more feminine, but without trying to pass as female.

Z

[Seshatneferw]

What is the difference between an androgynee and a girl with a masculine side or boy with a feminine side?

I'd say it's partly a difference between identity and expression: the androgyne is between genders inside, the others are that way outside. But you said you weren't looking for this answer.

I'll go for the other part of the 'partly', then. It's really a matter of how you want to look at it. A girl with significant male traits is rather far away from the prototypical woman, and likewise the boy with lots of female traits is not too close to the prototypical man. The prototypical androgyne is in the middle (straddling the line in a two-gender division); just how much of the gender space you want to give to this middle gender is up to discussion.

So, you can place a tomboy either at the androgyne end of 'woman' or the feminine end of 'androgyne'. Depends on how you want to look at things, and also the exact gender makeup of the tomboy in question. Of course, you could also ask em.

Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of their physical sex.

they do don't they? and when they don't it seems to be a decision. That seems like an important piece of t'puzzle, thanks.

Yes. Now that this came up, it sounds good. It's also a bit like what you said in the latest video: even a gender-illiterate androgyne can realise that an obviously male-looking person ought not to expect too much acceptance if e put on a pretty dress.

  Nfr

[sd]

Sorry Z, it was not meant as an absolute. While trying to break it down to something simple, that sort of got lost in the process.

Is this better?
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of one of the traditional sexes in order to conform with society.


I don't think there is a simple catch all.

[Shana A]

Sorry Z, it was not meant as an absolute. While trying to break it down to something simple, that sort of got lost in the process.

Is this better?
Androgynes are neither boy or girl in gender and tend to adopt the traits and dress of one of the traditional sexes in order to conform with society.


I don't think there is a simple catch all.

I didn't think you meant it as an absolute, SD.

This could become another topic, what do other androgynes do? Myself, I don't adopt any traits or mannerisms that don't feel natural, thus people might see male externally and wonder why I act certain ways I do. Dress conforms, or at least enough, only because I must make a living.

Zythyra

[RebeccaFog]

The difference is that I wish I were a tomboy and a tomboy does not wish to be me.

[Pica Pica]

How do you know? All these tomboys sitting around saying, 'I wish I were Rebis.'
It's funny actually, if I were born a female bodied androgyne I reckon I would have presented myself very girly and not a tom boy at all.

[Shana A]

I had an interesting realization during transition that if I'd been born with women's body, I would have likely been on the tomboy/butch side of expression, but as a male bodied person, lean more towards the femme.

Z

[Simone Louise]

I haven't run into the term Femboy before. Tomboys are distinguished by behavior, while we have be saying that androgynes are distinguished by their psychology. A female can go through a tomboy phase, while the androgyne is weird for life. Some behaviors reserved for tomboys, have been adopted by a wide range of girls and women: clothing associated with boys and men, sports, physical activities, a bold demeanor, and befriending boys as equals and peers. Boys and men, on the other hand, do more housework and cooking, and are more concerned with, and more willing to act to improve, their physical appearance

I found a reference in Wikipedia to an article from December, 1981, in the journal Sex Roles, titled: "Tomboys and sissies: Androgynous children?" According to the abstract: "This study had two purposes: (1) to identify potentially "androgynous" children as those labeled by their peers as "tomboys" and "sissies"; (2) to compare personality characteristics of "androgynous" children with those of peers. Subjects were 312 elementary school children in a midwestern city. Results indicate that the labels tomboy and sissy are not necessarily indicators of androgynous children, but important social behaviors are related to the labels. For males, the possibility of frustrated creativity was raised."

in the end, there seems to be an overlap, but androgyne is not a synonym for tomboy or femboy.

S

[Nero]

I haven't run into the term Femboy before.

I just made it up. 

[Simone Louise]

I haven't run into the term Femboy before.

I just made it up. 

I like it better than sissy.

S