Transition

[Sandi]

Sandi:  I could not agree with you more!  Many spend a life time transitioning and others go through it rapidly, and all stop at different points in their life, it is such a individual thing without doubt! But you state that some do not make "any changes"  Transition is a process of change, can you tell me what you mean here? I don't think I get it. Thanks!!

Taylor, the "do not make any changes" is only in reference to appearances (dress, hrt, surgery etc) and probably pretty darn rare. There are none that I know, and only one that I have ever heard of. Still even lacking these observable changes there would be changes in understanding, acceptance and mental state to reach a point of acceptance.

And now looking back, though I think a valid point, I maybe confused the issue by using an extremely rare case for example on that end. Understandably not too many would be that passive about their gender.

[Kate]

Kate:  Let me suggest a thought to you....  IF Gender is the issue at hand, then it is all that is socialized as a behavior, which yes can stim from the psychi, but if we take into consideration that it may be that the brain is in tune with the body, and the body is simply being observed incorrectly due to lack of our level of knowledge and current technology....well then? You may in fact just be a woman that lands on the spectrum outside of the cluster, but none the less a woman! Just more for you to ponder! lol   

Care to elaborate?

I'm not sure I quite understand... hmm... are you saying that I'm "female," even if my physical body seems male by societal standards? And that my angst, my "dysphoria" is caused by my believing in those inaccurate standards of what "male" and "female" are? If so, then it would seem that a mental shift in how I perceive myself would cure the dysphoria - no physical changes needed. And yet I do *crave* a more typically female physical form - not individual parts mind you, but the overall body form. Is that craving biological (brain wants the estrogen and body image it doesn't have) or programmed behaviour (I'm being pressured by society to conform to it's expectations of what a "female" looks like)?

[Kimberly]

^*ponder* Ooh interesting question!

I am probably the most reclusive here, but in no way am I untainted by society. ... Um, I will say, for me, that society is not my reason for craving the physical to be... correct. The reason is internal.

However some of the reasons I do a few of the things I do in the process can be attributed to society at large. Mostly the restrictions I place on myself, by the by.

I THINK!

[Kate]

Um, I will say, for me, that society is not my reason for craving the physical to be... correct. The reason is internal.

Same here.

And I'm careful to seperate "transitioning" into two components: physical and social.

The physical component is what *I* need and crave, and that pretty much revolves around hormones and the *overall* changes they'd (hopefully) bring. I don't crave specific parts (breasts, SRS, etc.) so much as an overall body morph or map which tends to INCLUDE those things.

The social transition is really mostly to make it easier for society to categorize me into it's binary system of gender. It's for THEM, not me. The name changes, legal recognition, role change, etc. - are all secondary social consequences of the physical transition. They aren't what I need, though they'll certainly be appreciated. But these things aren't what my dysphoria is about. I don't crave the role, the clothes, the name, or even the recognition.

But I do crave to be physically female, however vague that goal may be. It may indeed be a sliding scale - and all I know is I haven't slid far enough yet

[taylor]

Hi All


Kate: Yes you are understanding me correctly.  It is largely in my opinion because we do place such a high value on what society has assigned as a "fact", and because they have gotten it wrong, we do end up having to juggle many aspects of ourselves, so much so even that we cannot know if in the end we altered our body to fit society or if we do it for ourselves, or what I would suggest a combination of both. Because while we come to realize something is wrong, we have a very hard time accepting that society as a whole could be so mistaken. And to make matters worse, even when the very scientific evidence that they have used to support a two sexed world, has proven actually that there is no such thing,  where does that leave us? It leaves us exactly where we are.

To Everyone
If we altered our bodies just for ourselves, then let me ask this. Why do I read about the need to "Pass/Blend" so often ?  Why is it more important to have our bodies altered so the world around us will "believe" we are the sex we are claiming to be? Why is the need to blend in so fital to us as over all? ( I am not saying that all of us have the need to blend, but I think we know that the majority of the time this IS the case.)

It is not a shame to admit that we do this not just for ourselves. As a Sociologist it is really odd at times. There are things that I know intellectually and because I too have been socialized so deeply I still find myself responding as others do to certian things...even when I know something,...I still am a part of the social structure I live in and my need to function accordingly is going to still impact me. Intellectual knowledge, or just plane awareness does not stop the impact of our cultures socialization on us.

I believe that each of us do draw our own lines, based on the best that we can sort out. I am not convenced we all really know exactly why that line fell were we have it. But I think we certianly consider why we do what we do and get a good feel of it as well.

I know that even I believe that my physical alterations were because "I needed them so much!" but at the same time I can only speculate too, if I would have needed it to the same degree, or at all...had the world not assigned me so incorrectly to begin with. If I had been more allowed to be me, would the need have been so intense?  We cannot ever know that answer in my opinion, because we can never live in such a world to have such freedoms.

It is also my personal belief that one day generations from now, they will absolutely laugh at the notion the sexes were seperated in such a ignorant way.

So when I see people talking of having a "disorder" I guess I can buy into that if we stipulate it with a "Social Disorder" not a mental or medical disorder. 

I do really enjoy reading all the responses! You all have been great!

Peace,

Taylor

PS I am not in anyway telling anyone that they are wrong in what they feel or think...I hope that this comes across very clear!  I truly respect all of you that have shared here and please don't think for a minute that I stand in judgement of a single thing. Our identities are at best complex! 


Posted at: June 01, 2006, 03:22:06 PMSandi,

Are you referring the the F2M that did not change thier body or any other aspect of themself and attended MIT I think it was?

Peace,
Taylor

[Melissa]

Hi Taylor,

We change our bodies for ourselves, but we also try to blend into society for ourselves for different reasons.  I personally do not like being addressed as he/him because it implies something I am not.  I think there are people who truly do not care about what society thinks and they go as far as they are do until they are comfortable with themselves, even if they are not passable.

For me, not only is it about how I feel about myself, but also how I feel about my relationships with others.  I think you are right about social dictation having a strong influence on this aspect of transition.  However, if it was just about how I want to dress or act, I would just be a cross-dresser and it is much more than that.

Melissa

[HelenW]

I think transition for me will be about passing, interacting with the world at large in a body that reflects the person/sex/gender I feel myself to be.  Not passing means that people will still be interacting with the shell, the disguise, which is what I want to transition from.

I also think that saying I want to pass is another way of saying that I want to maximize my social effectiveness.  I think transition is also a way of doing that, come to think of it!  If I do not pass or if I am in disguise I feel that my effectiveness in the world suffers.  In the former sense because people are reacting to the "->-bleeped-<-" and that's not what I'm really all about and in the latter sense because they are reacting to a man who really isn't one and feels like a fraud all the time (and has to constantly employ strategies - deceit - designed to perpetuate that fraud).  Either way an artificial (from my p.o.v.) construct gets in the way.

helen

[taylor]

Helen,

I feel that my effectiveness in the world suffers.

In 1991 I sat on a park bench and told the woman that was much like a mother figure in my life, exactly these words as my closing statement when I told her I was transitioning.  I agree with you completely here!! No doubt it makes a difference. 15 yrs later I never deal with the odd moments, or people not "getting" me, because they are feeling dysphoric when dealing with me lol. 

Well just wanted to tell you I totally get this.

Peace,

Taylor

[jan c]

It is a very good point that a part of really requiring a physical change via transition has to be entertwined with integrating with society.

If I had the money to say 'forget society' and live on my own island, I may well still feel that some of this has got to go. On the other hand a luxury of absolute independence could possibly temper that feeling of urgency to a great degree, I do not know. That's all absurd hypotheses and does not apply anyway -

In my case I may have a chance to be the person: read the artist I can to what potential I've remaining, this would only be possible in this situation, transition; and what I do now is by design to be shared...

We all have to market ourself to the world. It is a commercial world.
I have to match an exterior with my interior: it would be false to hide, and counterproductive.

[Kimberly]

...
If we altered our bodies just for ourselves, then let me ask this. Why do I read about the need to "Pass/Blend" so often ?
...

The hate board here has a few answers to that. So does the discrimination board.

Those are reasons of course, but not all of the answer.



If I had the money to say "forget society" and live independently away from it... Not that much would be different for me. I would still be preping for the same procedures, although the amount of FFS I am not sure of. I would be doing a few things I want to be doing now but are financial bound currently. (I.e. I have a sever lack of funds). However, a few of the restrictions I place upon myself would not exist, as they are there for societies benefit, not my own.  But to be fair I am not that far from the `forget society` stage anyway. I see other people, once a week, perhaps every other.

[jan c]

You know, I'm not gonna blend anyway. This much is quite clear to me. IF I were in the mode I was at one time (and I know that a lot of that was about the internal conflict of (mostly, eventually) wrong body/wrong vehicle for the soul and mind), I'm going to do this all for me - the music, what-have-you - I would not care too much about a presentation.
I am in the world now. I think that is a good thing.
Should get a t-shirt printed 'WORK IN PROGRESS'.

I also think that saying I want to pass is another way of saying that I want to maximize my social effectiveness. If I do not pass or if I am in disguise I feel that my effectiveness in the world suffers.  In the former sense because... because they are reacting to a man who really isn't one and feels like a fraud all the time (and has to constantly employ strategies - deceit - designed to perpetuate that fraud).  Either way an artificial (from my p.o.v.) construct gets in the way.
helen

what she said

[Sandi]

Are you referring the the F2M that did not change thier body or any other aspect of themself and attended MIT I think it was?

No, it is a person from the support group that I used to attend in Milwaukee, although I haven't been there for well over a year. Support groups are not by cup of tea.

[Kate]

I think transition for me will be about passing, interacting with the world at large in a body that reflects the person/sex/gender I feel myself to be.  Not passing means that people will still be interacting with the shell, the disguise, which is what I want to transition from.

I sometimes fear that if I transition and don't pass, things will be much WORSE in terms of those interactions.

That is, right now, I realize people see a physical male. But for reasons I cannot fathom, people don't treat me much like one. No, I don't get "mamm'd" or anything like that. I look like an ordinary(?) guy. But still, women do tend to include me in their circles, and men treat me... well... kinda like a llittle kid, for lack of a better analogy. Sooner or later my physical reality does get in the way, and I HATE that. But still, it's something.

But if I transition, what if people forever feel uncomfortable around a "transsexual?" THAT would really be sad. My male disguise does get in the way at times, but it's NOTHING like what I fear being a non-passing transsexual will be like.

So it's ironic... but one of the reasons I hesitate to transition is because I fear I'll LOSE my (limited, but it's there) female-ish day-to-day interactions with people.

[Chynna]

Kate,

Well put..
I just got to a point where I said "screw it!" if I loose an individual in my life I will just have to accepted..I found out later that the statment in itself was easier to...well...say then it was to deal with so very valid fear I shared that same sentiment

I just like to add
"Pandora I give you your box back!"

Simply
Chynna

[Leigh]

  My male disguise does get in the way at times, but it's NOTHING like what I fear being a non-passing transsexual will be like.

Once again it should not be about presenting as a woman but living as one.

Tell me what is a passing woman?  Bea Auther or Sandra Bullock?  Charlize Theron or Janet Reno?

[HelenW]

Tell me what is a passing woman?  Bea Auther or Sandra Bullock?  Charlize Theron or Janet Reno?

I think a passing woman is one who is seen and treated as one by the general population.  All of the women mentioned are accepted as female by pretty much everyone, as far as I can see.  Will that happen for me all the time?  Most likely not, but I'd like it to go that way at least enough times that I can feel that I'm relating to the universe better than I am now.

helen

[Kimberly]

^*shrug*

People may relate to me however they like. I most certainly prefer a female context, ^*chortle* and I confess I find it very amusing when they avoid me, especially when they go out of their way to do so. But to be perfectly honest as long as they are civil I really do not care what they think, or how they behave.

[jan c]

Once again it should not be about presenting as a woman but living as one.

Tell me what is a passing woman?  Bea Auther or Sandra Bullock?  Charlize Theron or Janet Reno?

LOL.
In the suburb I am currently stationed at, I see persons every day, at the safeway, u name it, that I wonder about.
With varying degrees of
Most of them are PROBABLY women. Of one form or another.
I fit right in currently.

not to even mention the city.

Janet Reno, maybe not passing every where, seriously.
LMAO


Posted at: June 03, 2006, 11:27:13 AMLeigh seriously:
living as a woman
means being accepted by society (YMMV but this tends to include male society)
as a woman PER SE
this tends to mean being able to present as a woman
instead of trying to put the cart before the horse
or not?

[Melissa]

One reason for looking as feminine as possible is that not everyone has a very good imagination.  It kind of helps them along.  These are the people who tend to give the most trouble.

Melissa

[Miss Placed]

Not read all the thread, but just wanted to say what I see as 'transition' isn't an option in the poll.

To me 'transition' is getting to a point where you are happy with yourself and your life.

This is obviously different things for different people, but the one big mistake I feel many make is in thinking that SRS is the end of transition, as really it's just another step (and one a person doesn't have to take) with many more after it.