M2F Tomboys?

[deviousxen]

Does the tomboy preference have anything to do with how we were socialized growing up?

Probably a little. I mean... We're comfortable in areas which we have occupied in the past sometimes. Not to mention that most lifestyles and interests branch off from what you already had.


Its all connected...

[Hypatia]

the point we are slowly exposing through meticulous forensic excavation, is that most ->-bleeped-<-s seem to think feminine = female or equate femininity with femaleness.

Some of us are confident enough in ourselves as women to take up that right that our sisters died for and bloodywell wear trousers if we want to! [/huzzah]
R >

The only message I get around here is that antifeminine=female. Where are these "most ->-bleeped-<-s" of which you speak? I've never met anyone who believes that.

[Gracie Faise]

the point we are slowly exposing through meticulous forensic excavation, is that most ->-bleeped-<-s seem to think feminine = female or equate femininity with femaleness.

Some of us are confident enough in ourselves as women to take up that right that our sisters died for and bloodywell wear trousers if we want to! [/huzzah]
R >

The only message I get around here is that antifeminine=female. Where are these "most ->-bleeped-<-s" of which you speak? I've never met anyone who believes that.

Nor have I met the ones you speak of.

[feliciahawthorn]

When I started going out as a female, I felt like I had to be like totally girly and always felt the need to dress to the nines, and in a way that I found attractive. Over time, I discovered that I attracted mostly guys and cross-dressers when dressed that way and I am not really into guys. I have since evolved to the point of just enjoying blending as a female and have discovered that genetic women seem to find this more attractive and that suits me just fine.

On a personal level, there is just something about ultrafeminine women that I still find alluring and I tend to want to emulate the qualities that I find most attractive. I guess I am a girly girl at heart.

[cindybc]

Hi Jeannette hon, I agree with you sista. There will always be that gap we missed growing up as girls, nothing we can to about that except to learn through observing other females around us. I had the privilage of working along side other women for 8 years and still do. I am passable enough to feel comfortable where ever I go. What is both amusing and nice is to watch the men folk going out of their way opening doors and even have them carry som of my bags to the car while having some short but nice little conversations. At least my greatest asset is I love to chat with other people around me, I am a chatterbox and I ain't neva going to give up my wonderful gift to gab. 

Cindy

[discarded]

I'm sorry, I'm not a MtF, but I just HAD to comment in this thread (your threads are always so interesting and teeming with various insight and drama).

I'm a FtM and I don't think my 'plight' is much different from that of a MtF---we tend to overcompensate and act more masculine or feminine until we're comfortable and passing. In my case I had to be dripping with masculinity to pass as a male...because genetic males are all masculine (or so was my view). This was especially true while I was transitioning and was trying to pass. Unfortunately it gives the wrong impression---if you are passing it makes you look just plain ODD to everyone around you, and if you're not passing, it outs you for trying too damn hard.

Once I 'grew up' and was passing and being transgendered was no longer this big part of my life, I realized that I -hated- a lot of that macho masculine crap and wanted to just be me. I'm naturally masculine, though I hate most traditional male passtimes (such as sports, cars, ect.), but I do have my feminine qualities---I was raised with them and no amount of forcing myself to change will alter that. I like to dabble in the kitchen, grow things, and I like things to be clean, dammit.

The key to happiness is just embracing who you are. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Don't alter your behavior or interests to pass---once you can physically pass no one will question those things. If you like traditional boy-type things, who cares? Lots of girls do. Just like lots of girls like some traditional girl-type things. EVERYONE has a mixture of both---genetic men, women, trans men and women. Just do what makes you happy...forcing femininity (or masculinity) in someone's face doesn't help you pass is my point.

But more to the purpose of the thread...hormones will not alter your interests/behaviors, but it will alter sex drive, and how emotional you are. Women, due to hormones, are 'hard wired' to be more nuturing, emotional, and process-oriented (rather than goal-oriented). Taking hormones should cause those things to alter, but it's not going to change who you are.

To be honest, after I started on Testosterone, and have been on it for nearly a decade now, I've found I started to embrace more traditional feminine aspects about myself that I used to deny, but I've also found I've become more neutral and logical when it comes to my feelings. I'm less emotional, more goal-oriented and display more male biological behavioral traits.

I'd love to see how everyone's perception of tomboy, feminine, or masculine changes after several years of being on hormones and passing comfortably---when being trans is no longer in the forefront of their minds.

[Rachael]

Natal females can get away with acting in a tomoyish way because they've been socialized as females from birth & they have not passability concerns as most trans women do. Peeps will never doubt that Sigourney Weaver, KD Lang, Laura Prepon, Sara Gilbert & other tomboyish women are female.  Trans women have not that kind of luck unless they transitioned in their early teens & they're very passable physically & facially (e.g. body language, voice, body frame amongst other peculiarities).  So I do what I can & exploit my best female features because I don't want to be read as "male or trans" in place of a "mannish woman.

To be honest, i think you pass BETTER, as others have said. when you are just 'normal'. Today, a lot of women are tomboyish. and i tell you one thing from my experience. I'm visibly tomboyish. I wear baggy jeans, sneakers, teeshirts/tanks, i rarely wear much makeup, i have 4 piercings in my ears, 1 in my eyebrow (bar) when people look at me. '->-bleeped-<-' is the last thing on thier mind.

The popular social view of a transsexual is a mincing dragqueen dressed to the 9s, wearing thier ballgown to do grocery shopping etc... Sure, it may not work for all, but i've found i'm comfortable in my ways. Nobody reads me as remotely male. hell, when i got my last job before going full time last easter. I applied wearing baggy jeans, hoodie, and looking as andro as i could. (still had old name then) Applied, was given the job. Got my first paycheck, realised they thought i was a girl anyway! so i decided to not bother telling em then

With regards to the anti feminine, well, it seems almost the rule in this country, largely at gender clinics, and in transpeople i've come into contact with, if you are not feminine, you are not a woman according to them.

Susan's may have a larger feminist population, which is hardly a bad thing. Susan's is not all trans people...

From my experience, and this is mine, not yours, not anyone else's... this is what i'e seen. But there seems to be a stigma against transwomen that are 'masculine' they are seen as 'not proper ->-bleeped-<-s' Its certainly how the UK medical establishment sees things... hell, some GID clinics will RESET your RLE if you wear trousers...

most will delay you if you aren't appropriately feminine, or don't put in enough effort..... ie, heels, makeup, skirt etc... its a bit bonkers...
R >

[deviousxen]

I'm sorry, I'm not a MtF, but I just HAD to comment in this thread (your threads are always so interesting and teeming with various insight and drama).

I'm a FtM and I don't think my 'plight' is much different from that of a MtF---we tend to overcompensate and act more masculine or feminine until we're comfortable and passing. In my case I had to be dripping with masculinity to pass as a male...because genetic males are all masculine (or so was my view). This was especially true while I was transitioning and was trying to pass. Unfortunately it gives the wrong impression---if you are passing it makes you look just plain ODD to everyone around you, and if you're not passing, it outs you for trying too damn hard.

Once I 'grew up' and was passing and being transgendered was no longer this big part of my life, I realized that I -hated- a lot of that macho masculine crap and wanted to just be me. I'm naturally masculine, though I hate most traditional male passtimes (such as sports, cars, ect.), but I do have my feminine qualities---I was raised with them and no amount of forcing myself to change will alter that. I like to dabble in the kitchen, grow things, and I like things to be clean, dammit.

The key to happiness is just embracing who you are. You don't have to prove anything to anyone. Don't alter your behavior or interests to pass---once you can physically pass no one will question those things. If you like traditional boy-type things, who cares? Lots of girls do. Just like lots of girls like some traditional girl-type things. EVERYONE has a mixture of both---genetic men, women, trans men and women. Just do what makes you happy...forcing femininity (or masculinity) in someone's face doesn't help you pass is my point.

But more to the purpose of the thread...hormones will not alter your interests/behaviors, but it will alter sex drive, and how emotional you are. Women, due to hormones, are 'hard wired' to be more nuturing, emotional, and process-oriented (rather than goal-oriented). Taking hormones should cause those things to alter, but it's not going to change who you are.

To be honest, after I started on Testosterone, and have been on it for nearly a decade now, I've found I started to embrace more traditional feminine aspects about myself that I used to deny, but I've also found I've become more neutral and logical when it comes to my feelings. I'm less emotional, more goal-oriented and display more male biological behavioral traits.

I'd love to see how everyone's perception of tomboy, feminine, or masculine changes after several years of being on hormones and passing comfortably---when being trans is no longer in the forefront of their minds.

You kind of hit the nail on the head I believe. I still have the same exact aspirations and interests as before, but I am feeling the "Nurture" of the Estrogen. I like it though... I was never really that emotionally out there unless I argued with my mom, which is kind of hard anyway cause I love her. I'm still not overly emotional, but I find that I care about my best friends a lot more and in a more worried way. I feel... I don't know, more responsible in a different way. Less like this vision of a cold super hero I used to have of myself, cause I'd save my friends asses SO MANY TIMES. It would annoy me. Now I almost enjoy my position. I welcome the change, cause if anything it makes me less cold than before, and much more human-feeling. Don't get me wrong, I hate the human race, but I still value my friends, and being better to them is a good thing. Its kind of cool actually, cause I'll always keep the cold dissecting logic, but now I have a second perspective on life that is very much less depressing, which embraces the whole, over the pieces. I can now view it both ways because my brain knows how to do both...

You're right too... Cause once I do pass (if said day ever arrives), I will most likely have the same style and ideas for clothing and just calibrate it to fit me in my new form. Not overly fem or masc. : ]

[Hypatia]

Unfortunately it gives the wrong impression---if you are passing it makes you look just plain ODD to everyone around you, and if you're not passing, it outs you for trying too damn hard.

This is where I think misunderstanding gets in.
This assumption that to be "feminine" or "masculine" always has to mean "trying too damn hard," being artificial, standing out from those around you. The assumption that as in the example that Rachael gave trans women are ridiculous drag queens, and that's all that femininity means, and it can never mean anything more than that.

Obviously, I'm not defending any such thing. We seem to be using the same word for two entirely different concepts.

When I use the word femininity, I'm thinking of my natural style which suits me the best. It allows me to fit in amongst women without standing out. Believe me, I've tried going that route of wearing pants and no makeup. That was a complete washout, because that is not me, and I felt like I was fake or trying too hard when I went that route. It did not work for me at all.

There's always this assumption that femininity means bad style. It makes it sound like no one has seen any examples of successful, chic feminine looks. There's this assumption that every time it's done, it's done wrong.  If you saw me, you'd see how to do it right. I know I'm doing it right because of the success in transition that it's brought me. Like I said, I fit in well with the women around me. This is my message that seems to have been lost on everyone here-- Femininity can be a good thing, if it suits you well as an individual, and if you are skilled at doing it right. I thrive on it and wouldn't want to live any other way. I've always felt at home in female activities and social patterns. I've always hated male thought patterns, male activities like sports/war/guns/power tools/mechanical stuff, and resented that such things were forced on me growing up. The only stereotypically male things that I've incorporated into my life are an ability to read maps and to parallel park. Otherwise, I have no use for any of it. It would be no use for me to live tomboy, it would be just as fake and unsuccessful as if you lasses were to be girly. But I don't know if I've communicated that very well. So many of you don't seem able to look outside your own personal point of view. I can see how we're all alike in that we each have found how to be comfortable in our own individual authenticity, and that is how it ought to be.

Women, due to hormones, are 'hard wired' to be more nuturing, emotional, and process-oriented (rather than goal-oriented). Taking hormones should cause those things to alter, but it's not going to change who you are.

You're so right. All my life, before I came out and began HRT, there had been a war within me between my female brain's natural tendencies to be nurturing, emotional, and process-oriented, versus the male socialization imposed on me where only being detached and goal-oriented would do. No wonder I muddled through life with such a tangled mess inside me. Once I got on HRT, the estrogen reinforced and confirmed my innate female tendencies and untangled me inside. No longer at war within me, it felt so good to cast off the unwanted male socialization once and for all. Like setting down a heavy burden I'd been carrying all my life, and finally getting a chance to live my real self.

As for the British gender clinics taking away from your RLE if you wear pants-- that's just so stupid and f**ked up of them. I have always defended women's right to wear pants if they choose-- as anyone who has a clue about the real world will see that women always have this choice (as long as they don't belong to extreme reactionary fundie religious sects). I voted for Hillary Clinton, and when was the last time you saw her in a skirt? Sounds like the British gender clinics are horribly out of touch with the real world. Do they live in a cave and never see the light of day? At the Whitman-Walker Clinic in Washington DC, where I go for HRT, there is no such nonsense. Whitman-Walker is privately, charitably funded and run, and exists to help everyone LGBT. Their transgender clinic is very compassionate, down to earth, and bull->-bleeped-<--free. I feel so lucky I'm with them. You can be whoever you are there, and it's cool.

[cindybc]

Hi Discarded, I just had an interesting thought. I was just thinking about "wow!!" wouldn't it be interesting to come back here and meet each other again after 8 years. I was away from this place for 8 years then decided to come back out of curiosity but I was also bored and needed something to do so I decided to remain here and do my best to do my part at giving support for anyone who is in need.

Unfortunately I have not run into anyone from 8 years back yet, unless I am not recognise them. But the interesting part I have discovered is that most of the membership now are much younger folks, some still kids. But I must say that this new generation are truly an awesome bunch. Way different then what I was accustomed to 8 years ago. These kids are dedicated to becoming who they know they are and I must love and admire them for their determination and tenacity of sticking it out with college and University and finding productive work to pay their way and then following up on some career or another, to me I believe would take a lot of effort in light of the statistics of acquiring gainful employment as TS without being rejected or canned.

Who ever said that it would be easy just wanting to be ourselves, a very discouraging task at best. Anyway I think it would be interesting to come back and say "howdy!!!" in 8 years from now. Tom boy? yea to a certain extent I suppose, it takes a lot of guts to get past this particular stumbling block called Transexuality. But then women are also strong within themselves, they have to be to put up with all the crap out there.

By the way all, Happy Mothers day.



Cindy   

[Gracie Faise]

I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever. If that is who you are and what you are comfortable wearing, so be it. Don't feel subjected to dress and act one way and not the other nor subject others to dressing and acting one way and not the other.

There is no need for overcompensation, whatever form that overcompensation takes.

[Yvonne]

I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender sorry but that's a load of tripe!

[tekla]

Be moderate in all things, including moderation.  So, at times, over the top isn't even far enough.  Cherish and relish those times.  Play it to the hilt, and as Carly Simon once said - walk into the party like you're walking onto a yacht.  And that's cool too.  Really, don't show up to the opera in casual friday rags, don't wear a little black dress (or tux) to paint the barn.  Now, from time to time, its possible, and perhaps necessary to violate that.  I see people dressed to the nines in Safeway from time to time, but they are not doing the weekly shopping, they are buying wine and liquor for the limo parked outside, so -- you do what you must.  If your going to a gamer/comix/Anime convention, remember the 'comic book guy' in the Simpson's is not that far off the mark and make sure your T-Shirt does not reach the top of your elastic-waist workout pants (not that you've ever worked out, yeesh).  D&D was never a fashion statement, male or female.

[Gracie Faise]

I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender sorry but that's a load of tripe!

I guess I can't really relate to that then. I've never really had to try to take a female gender role. It's just always been there. Whenever I had to try was to take male gender roles.

Posted on: May 11, 2008, 03:56:31 PM

Be moderate in all things, including moderation.  So, at times, over the top isn't even far enough.  Cherish and relish those times.  Play it to the hilt, and as Carly Simon once said - walk into the party like you're walking onto a yacht.  And that's cool too.  Really, don't show up to the opera in casual friday rags, don't wear a little black dress (or tux) to paint the barn.  Now, from time to time, its possible, and perhaps necessary to violate that.  I see people dressed to the nines in Safeway from time to time, but they are not doing the weekly shopping, they are buying wine and liquor for the limo parked outside, so -- you do what you must.  If your going to a gamer/comix/Anime convention, remember the 'comic book guy' in the Simpson's is not that far off the mark and make sure your T-Shirt does not reach the top of your elastic-waist workout pants (not that you've ever worked out, yeesh).  D&D was never a fashion statement, male or female.

I think that is a given already. I'm sure everyone knows "dress professionally at job interviews" and "dress warm when it's cold out" and all that jazz.

[tekla]

Your kidding right?  I lived and worked in the midwest for a long, long time and never got over seeing girls go to school without sox on, or boys not wearing hats.  And it was close to zero outside, with a wind.  Death by fashion is a common problem.

[cindybc]

Hi Gracie FAISE, I agree with what you say. I believe that if you ask any other trans woman how they felt.

Did they really feel the gender they were born with, or did they lean more to or yearn to be the female gender, which they felt to be inside them since they were old enough to be aware of the difference in genders? I believe that after one starts HRT it will trigger many of the female traits which were always within one's self to begin with.

Love you hon, you have got it.

Cindy

[tekla]

Does it 'trigger' or 'induce' - I would think the second, but please reply.  Its not a minor difference.

[Hypatia]

I think it empowers, unleashes, liberates, actuates.

[cindybc]

Call it what you will hon these traits were always there to come out and the estrogen helped them to do that. I didn't have to practice these traits, they just came to me.

Hypatia has the picture too; 

I think it empowers, unleashes, liberates, actuates.

Cindy

[Rachael]

I think the bottom line here is

Just be yourself. Like make up and skirts? Fine. Like beat up jeans and band tees? Fine. Whatever.

It's more complicated than skirts and band tees.  I'm like you.  I wear jeans, loose tank tops and never wear make up when I'm comfortably sitting at home.  At work or when I go out it's quite a different story.  The problem with "being yourself" is that some transsexual peeps equate that phrase with refusing to make a gender role change.  They want to act and look as their former selves but want all the benefits of their target gender sorry but that's a load of tripe!

Bingo... happens a lot....

And like Grasie said, some girls just are how they are.

Nobody would ever imagine me male... even as a tomboy. Its not some excuse to maintain old habbits. i hardly had any? Its how _I_ feel good about myself, comfortable with my self, and happy with life.
i LIKE jeans. Sure, if wearing some mens jeans is me holding on to some pretransition self, fine... whatever. tell you what. it would be hard work to play combat sports in a skirt n heels.... (though i have done in leather and heels <-- dont ask) At my age, Day to day fasion for boys and girls doesnt differ too  hugely, atleast in the grungy punk/rock scene... sure theres differences, but it sticks fairly close.

My clothes do not make me.

My interests do not make me.

Was i corrected the right way at birth, i guess id still be into this stuff. but then, that would be ok, id be a natal female, i can do as i wish.


Somewhere the ->-bleeped-<-stapo is preparing to raid my house at 4am and arrest me for not being a perfect ->-bleeped-<-.

Sorry.
My way or the highway.
Ive said it before, ill say it again,
since when was transition about femininity or masculinity? no offense meant here, but are we crossdressers or actually the target gender? who gives a crap what you like? like it!

To transition, id hope your sense of self was greater than skin deep....
R >