Transgender vs Transsexual

[Beyond]

Its simple.

Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.

Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.

Restricting the definition of transsexual to binary identified people strikes me as being unnecessarily exclusive.  There are non-binary identified people (by no means all of them I know) who feel they have a birth defect and their anatomical sex doesn't match the sex of their brain.  This condition can exist whether you feel you're supposed to have a binary sexed body or not.  It's perfectly possible to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria leading to corrective surgery without being binary identified.

<snip>

Also (call me a cynic if you must), I can't help but think this attempt to change the definition is an attempt to separate binary identified trans people from non-binary identified trans people.

What?

It's not unneccessarily exclusive, that's the historical definition of a person born transsexual.  The defining characteristic of people born transsexual is that they identify as the gender opposite of what they were assigned at birth.  Therefore people who identify outside the binary are not transsexual.  That was part of the reason the term "transgender" was adopted, to cover people who do not neatly fit within the binary.

This is what I was writing about before.  Some people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual".  I'm not being elitist either, I'm trying to bring clarity to this issue.  What you want to do is make the words "transsexual" and "transgender" interchangeable.  When you do that you only cause confusion because they are fundamentally different as I've explained.  I can only assume you don't understand because you're not transsexual.  I am and it's upsetting to see people trying to co-opt my life experience or at least the official term for my life experience.  Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not.

One is either transgender or transsexual.  They are two separate things.

[Keira]

The issue gets a bit more clouded if you consider
that the physical modification that drives transexuality
in the brain may not express in the same way for everyone.
It may interact with other gene expression and provide
different characteristics.

So, someone may be highly dysphoric and have this brain modification
and and other may be a lot less and have the same.

Who's the TS in that case. The second one will possibly be somewhere
in between genders and not at either end.

What if somebody is highly dysphoric and does not have any brain modification,
are they transexual, fetishists, delusional?


That's the problem with both the transexual AND the transgender terminology,
they are both unprecise.

[JENNIFER]

The issue gets a bit more clouded if you consider
that the physical modification that drives transexuality
in the brain may not express in the same way for everyone.
It may interact with other gene expression and provide
different characteristics.

So, someone may be highly dysphoric and have this brain modification
and and other may be a lot less and have the same.

Who's the TS in that case. The second one will possibly be somewhere
in between genders and not at either end.

What if somebody is highly dysphoric and does not have any brain modification,
are they transexual, fetishists, delusional?


That's the problem with both the transexual AND the transgender terminology,
they are both unprecise.

Slap me down if you wish but having read Keira above, I can fuly understand the need for extensive phychiatric investigations, something that I am having currently.  Hopefully they will confirm that my feelings are so deeply set that it cannot be a mere whim or a fetish or any othe excuse to get my body to match my mind.  Never can it be possible for a 'one size fits all' solution or answer to our situations. 

[Caroline]

It's not unneccessarily exclusive, that's the historical definition of a person born transsexual.  The defining characteristic of people born transsexual is that they identify as the gender opposite of what they were assigned at birth.  Therefore people who identify outside the binary are not transsexual.  That was part of the reason the term "transgender" was adopted, to cover people who do not neatly fit within the binary.

This is what I was writing about before.  Some people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual".  I'm not being elitist either, I'm trying to bring clarity to this issue.  What you want to do is make the words "transsexual" and "transger" interchangeable.  When you do that you only cause confusion because they are fundamentally different as I've explained.  I can only assume you don't understand because you're not transsexual.  I am and it's upsetting to see people trying to co-opt my life experience or at least the official term for my life experience.  Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not.

One is either transgender or transsexual.  They are two separate things.

The thing is, in the past it was generally thought that the only people who had gender dysphoria (or at least 'real' gender dysphoria) and therefore the only people eligible for treatment were binary identified transsexuals.  Therefore there was seemingly no harm done in defining the word transsexual in a way that only works for binary identified people.  These days however medical professionals are realising that non-binary people can have gender dysphoria and respond to treatments very similar to those given to binary transsexuals.  You could draw an analogy to the time that transsexual meant M2F full stop (because it was thought F2Ms didn't exist), would this mean people would be justified in telling F2Ms that they werent allowed to 'co-opt' a term coined originally for transsexual women?

I'd appreciate it if you explained how your situation is fundamentally different to mine?  I'm not trying to 'co-opt' the life experience of binary transsexuals (and lets remember that they're a fairly diverse group anyway), I simply note that my issues are very similar.  I have gone through the hell of living in the wrong body, going by the wrong name, being called the wrong pronouns (excuse the emosplode), come out to friends and family, changed my name, altered my hormonal state and appearance, had laser hair removal, I am having surgery to fix my genitalia.  Not all my issues match those of m2fs, but a great many do.

"Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not."  I think there's a subtle hint here that you were 'born' the way you are (ie an immutable fact) and I simply 'identify' as something other than my birth sex (ie an opinion).  There is no proof of this, and I could equally assert that the converse is true.

To me, the important difference between 'transgender' and 'transsexual' is that one refers to gender and the other to sex.  I am transitioning largely because of a deeply held conviction that my body is wrong and I need to fix it.  I find any definition of 'transsexual' that excludes people who are going through a transition of anatomical sex characteristics rather lacking.  I don't get why people want to shove a great big wedge between the non-binary and the binary transpeople.  Surely the motivations for making the changes are more important than the destination.  Nobody seems to complain about M2Fs and F2Ms sharing terminology, even though they're going in opposite directions.

Posted on: June 04, 2008, 03:22:22 PM

The issue gets a bit more clouded if you consider
that the physical modification that drives transexuality
in the brain may not express in the same way for everyone.
It may interact with other gene expression and provide
different characteristics.
[...]
That's the problem with both the transexual AND the transgender terminology,
they are both unprecise.

*nods*
Also, I think it's not just a matter of "expression".  If there is such a thing as brain sex (lets not get into arguing the nature of the evidence for that again), then I see no reason why it has to be wired entirely male or entirely female.  There is certainly no proof that being mentally intersex doesn't occur.

[Jaycie]

What?

It's not unneccessarily exclusive, that's the historical definition of a person born transsexual.  The defining characteristic of people born transsexual is that they identify as the gender opposite of what they were assigned at birth.  Therefore people who identify outside the binary are not transsexual.  That was part of the reason the term "transgender" was adopted, to cover people who do not neatly fit within the binary.

This is what I was writing about before.  Some people are trying to change the meaning of the word "transsexual".  I'm not being elitist either, I'm trying to bring clarity to this issue.  What you want to do is make the words "transsexual" and "transger" interchangeable.  When you do that you only cause confusion because they are fundamentally different as I've explained.  I can only assume you don't understand because you're not transsexual.  I am and it's upsetting to see people trying to co-opt my life experience or at least the official term for my life experience.  Transgender folks may identify outside the binary, but people born transsexual do not.

One is either transgender or transsexual.  They are two separate things.

I would have to point out that not every body within the field would agree with your assessment of the definitions actually. These aren't quite the definitions that are in use on this particular site, but from the site of an author you list in your profile :

Transsexuals (TS or T's):  Transsexuals are people who believe that their physiological body does not represent their true sex. Most transsexuals desire sexual reassignment surgery (SRS)  but transsexuals may be pre-operative, post-operative, or non-operative (i.e., choosing to not have surgical modification). Some transsexuals prefer to not have their birth sex known and to "pass," and others are comfortable been seen as transsexuals and take pride in this identity. Most transsexuals prefer to be referred to simply as men or women, regardless of their surgical status.

And :

Transgender:  Transgender is an umbrella term including many categories of people who are gender variant. This can include people who identify as transsexuals, crossdressers, masculine identified females, feminine identified males, MtF's, FtM's, transmen, transgendered women, intersexed, and other differently-gendered people. Transgender people can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual or non-sexual. Transgenderist is a term used for some crossdressers, who feel they are more than crossdressers, but not quite transsexuals.

From - http://www.choicesconsulting.com/areas/transgender/definitions.html

Both of these definitions allow for much more openness and reflect the reality of what people experience.  Historically it may have been restricted to binary viewpoints but there's no reason for it not to be amended to include the other instances that can easily be explained under it. 

[JENNIFER]

I was told once by a religious man, lay preacher or junior cleric I forget which, that God created 2 sexes and 73 genders.  Problem was that God forgot to tell Moses when handing down the rules and regulations by which mankind should live.  

If by some chance this is a true reflection of humanity as we here see it,  could it explain why so many of us differ in our view on transsexualism, transgenderism or any other trans-ism?   Oh, dont ask me why 73 genders, I have no idea why the man came to that figure  

[Caroline]

I was told once by a religious man, lay preacher or junior cleric I forget which, that God created 2 sexes and 73 genders.  Problem was that God forgot to tell Moses when handing down the rules and regulations by which mankind should live. 

If God created two sexes then it seems pretty evident that he didn't just assign every person entirely one state or the other but assigned people mixtures of the two states in varying quantities

[JENNIFER]

I was told once by a religious man, lay preacher or junior cleric I forget which, that God created 2 sexes and 73 genders.  Problem was that God forgot to tell Moses when handing down the rules and regulations by which mankind should live. 

If God created two sexes then it seems pretty evident that he didn't just assign every person entirely one state or the other but assigned people mixtures of the two states in varying quantities

Indeed, hence 73 genders.....kinda makes sense 

[Keira]

When I talk about "expression" its not a volountary act, its gene expression, how
the genes actually "express" themselves in interaction with the environment and
other genes.

[Beyond]

The thing is, in the past it was generally thought that the only people who had gender dysphoria (or at least 'real' gender dysphoria) and therefore the only people eligible for treatment were binary identified transsexuals.  Therefore there was seemingly no harm done in defining the word transsexual in a way that only works for binary identified people.  These days however medical professionals are realising that non-binary people can have gender dysphoria and respond to treatments very similar to those given to binary transsexuals.  You could draw an analogy to the time that transsexual meant M2F full stop (because it was thought F2Ms didn't exist), would this mean people would be justified in telling F2Ms that they werent allowed to 'co-opt' a term coined originally for transsexual women?

You obviously don't know your history.  FtM's have always been around, Reed Erickson (of the Erickson Foundation) anyone?, they just weren't well known.  So it's never been a strictly MtF thing.  The only "full stop" that existed was that you had to be hetero at the end of transition or they wouldn't let you into the gender program.


I don't know why you all are acting defensively.  I'm not saying one is any better than another, just different.  It's like your trying to say measles and mumps are the same thing just because they are both covered by an MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) immunization.


And we wonder why cisgenders don't understand when *we* can't even agree on terminology.


When it comes to self-acceptance transition is like an onion.  Just when you think you've got everything sorted out another layer is removed.  As you get farther along in your journey your view of things will change.  Compound that with this being a wide-open TG/TS board and it's no wonder we have misunderstandings like this.  It's all about context-where you are in transition and who you are (androgyne, TG, TS).


If you think it's frustrating, it's just as frustrating on my end.  I'm trying to help people, but there are a lot of lessons people just have to live/experience before they understand.  I'm not trying to drive a wedge.  Our experiences are going to differ and hence we're not the same.  I don't identify as a "transsexual" or "transgender".  I consider myself beyond (pun intended) that now, I'm simply a woman now.  Trying to explain this to you is making me wonder why I come to places like this anymore.  You're so lost in your trans forest that you can't see that for some of us there is a life outside the forest.  Some of you will find it and some of you won't.

[Caroline]

I'm just trying to understand what the big issue is that makes someone like myself so different from MTFs and FTMs.  I really don't think I have any issues with self-acceptance, and I'm pretty far along with my transition (bottom surgery in 4 weeks time).  I identify as transsexual because I was born with the wrong body and have needed to change it.  That will never go away, it happened and no amount of time passing will stop it having happened, it's a fact.  Transsexual isn't my gender, or anything to do with my gender, but I identify as one, just like I identify as someone who fractured their collarbone when they were a child.  Yes, maybe my views and opinions will evolve as time goes by (I sure hope so, I'd hate to be an inflexible person who couldn't grow), but so may yours!

Trans people are diverse, the difference between me and some MTFs is smaller than the differences between various MTFs.

How am I 'lost' in this supposed "trans forest"?  You know very little about me so don't try and tell me what my life is or isn't like.  I spend a fair amount of time on trans forums but outside of the internet don't generally interact with other trans people.  Due to being non-binary, being trans will ALWAYS be a significant part of my life (since stealth or blending in well are not possible (I have no 'accepted' gender role to blend into)) and something I have to do deal with, but I'm secure and happy about what I am and it doesn't rule my life.  Somehow I don't think it's me that has much work to do on self-acceptance.

[Laura91]

Trans people are diverse

Indeed, as are the rest of the human race. I think all of this squabbling over labels is really, really stupid and a huge waste of time. Why not just enjoy life and let all of these labels fall by the wayside? Yeah, I know that it is human nature to label, argue all that jazz. But does it do any of us any good at all? I would say no.

[Kate]

Indeed, as are the rest of the human race. I think all of this squabbling over labels is really, really stupid and a huge waste of time. Why not just enjoy life and let all of these labels fall by the wayside? Yeah, I know that it is human nature to label, argue all that jazz. But does it do any of us any good at all? I would say no.

I know, I know, but the practical reason is that many TSs want insurance to cover the various medical costs, which means it needs to be a medical problem, which means "transsexual" needs to be defined in a way which makes it distinct from crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens, etc. "Transsexual" ultimately needs to only apply to those for whom transitioning is a "medical necessity."

But as far as the public goes, I think transsexual and transgender are interchangeable now. The original meaning of "transsexual" is probably forever lost with them at this point. I won't go near any of the terms. When someone tells me they "saw a show on transsexualism and learned so much!" I always say, "that's nice, but it wasn't about ME."

~Kate~

[Laura91]

I know, I know, but the practical reason is that many TSs want insurance to cover the various medical costs, which means it needs to be a medical problem, which means "transsexual" needs to be defined in a way which makes it distinct from crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens, etc. "Transsexual" ultimately needs to only apply to those for whom transitioning is a "medical necessity."

Well, actually, I was talking about how useless labels were in general, but you do have a very good point there.

[Caroline]

I know, I know, but the practical reason is that many TSs want insurance to cover the various medical costs, which means it needs to be a medical problem, which means "transsexual" needs to be defined in a way which makes it distinct from crossdressers, transvestites, drag queens, etc. "Transsexual" ultimately needs to only apply to those for whom transitioning is a "medical necessity."

I can well understand this, but it's important to remember that binary identified TSs aren't the only people for whom gender dysphoria is a debilitating medical problem that makes medical treatments (endocrinological and/or surgical) a necessity.

[Gracie Faise]

Its simple.

Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.

Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.

It's not that simple.

There are many people born transsexual that object to being shoehorned under the transgender umbrella.  A person born transsexual desires complete transition, to fully be, as much as possible, who they should have been.  I'm done transition and I'm not gender variant, I'm just another woman in the world.

Transgender people are gender variant in some way, shape or form.

That's a significant difference.  I'm legally, psychologically and anatomically female.  Look at my avatar, do I look variant?  And please don't say I'm beholden to stereotypes or the dichotomy because that is simply not  true.  I'm a plain Jane, vanilla girl from next door.  And I know this going to sound trite, but for the most part I feel cured.  The dysphoria I felt for most of my life is GONE.  I love life and I love me!

Then why do I come here?  2 reasons: Habit and to help others.


I hope this helps explain where I'm coming from.

Chill out dude, I'm just saying what the books say. I agree that transsexuals are much much much different fro mthe rest but it is stil considered under the transgender umbrella

Posted on: June 05, 2008, 11:45:21 AM

Its simple.

Transgender = Umbrella term for all deviations of the gender binary.

Transexual = One of the terms that is under that umbrella. Someone who has Gender Identity Disorder (GID) aka Harry Benjamin Syndrome (HBS) aka a birth defect that makes the sex of your body opposite the gender of your brain.

Restricting the definition of transsexual to binary identified people strikes me as being unnecessarily exclusive.  There are non-binary identified people (by no means all of them I know) who feel they have a birth defect and their anatomical sex doesn't match the sex of their brain.  This condition can exist whether you feel you're supposed to have a binary sexed body or not.  It's perfectly possible to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria leading to corrective surgery without being binary identified.

Who said anything about constricting to a gender binary?

[Caroline]

Who said anything about constricting to a gender binary?

Er you did, by saying defining transsexual as being a state where the "sex of your body [is] opposite the gender of your brain".  A persons gender and sex dont need to be complete opposites in order for the person to experience dysphoria that requires treatment.   Did I misinterpret?
(I'd argue that in my case, being null-identified, ie, non-male, my gender is opposite the body I was born with, ie male.  This doesnt cover all the other possible gender/body identities though).

[Gracie Faise]

Who said anything about constricting to a gender binary?

Er you did, by saying defining transsexual as being a state where the "sex of your body [is] opposite the gender of your brain".  A persons gender and sex dont need to be complete opposites in order for the person to experience dysphoria that requires treatment.   Did I misinterpret?
(I'd argue that in my case, being null-identified, ie, non-male, my gender is opposite the body I was born with, ie male.  This doesnt cover all the other possible gender/body identities though).

One would assume that is intersexed, or genderqueer.

Yes, you did misinterpret me. I said multiple things that work together. You zeroed in on a single thing and deconstructed it. You have to read it all together. I said "Transsexual = this and this and this" Where as you saw it as "Transsexual = this. Transsexual = this. Transsexual = this"

[NicholeW.]

May be just me, but this disagreement appears to be about a different word, "opposite."

N~

[Caroline]

I think you might be right Nichole.

Apologies then Gracie, thanks for the clarification.