Invasion

[tinkerbell]

Okay, I am locking this topic for 24 hours.  Hopefully everyone will be a wee bit more relaxed tomorrow, and then we'll see if we unlock it.  Thank you.

tink



Posted on: July 18, 2008, 08:15:45 PMAlmost twenty four hours have passed, so I'm unlocking this topic.  Please, please, please... let's keep the discussion civil.  If you are not familiar with the TOS/site rules, review them here.  The moderators will be monitoring this thread so that it doesn't get all...ummm...how can I put it?...wild again!

2. Any attempts to stage protests, dispute the site policy, the TOS/rules, or actions of the staff; in the public areas of this site will not be tolerated and will result in your removal. If you have issues I suggest you contact susan@susans.org and not bring your issues into the public spaces on this website.

9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

Thanks a bunch!

tink

[glendagladwitch]

no glenda.  you again overreact.  you are trying to make it sound as if i am some hate filled bigot who wants to annialate the whole world.  you are completely wrong and you aren't being fair at all in charaterizing me in that way.  by doing that you avoid the substance of the argument and concentrate on the aruguer.  a good tactic if you're out to win...but if you are discussing and sharing it's not very helpful.

i think a cd should take responsibility for his own actions.  i think a cd should confine his crossdressing to places where facilities are available to him.  if he chooses to go to places where he might be beaten up or killed the perogative is his and the consequences are his as well.  no one should ever be beaten up or killed though.  my remedy is that he understand in advance that facilites are binary gendered in most instances and he is still a man regardless of how he dresses and in the vast majority of places his presence in the ladies' rooms will not be welcomed.  then it's up to him to decide if he wants to risk the men's room.  he has choices.

that doesn't mean i hate him or want to see him harmed.  that's something you have made up in your own mind to charaterize me as because you don't like what i'm saying and you don't like me because i say it.  that's really a shame.  that kind of behavior is what does drive people apart and stifles any chance for dialogue and conciliation.

as far as enda goes...that is a topic for politics.

i will say this, and again the truth is going to make some people mad.  i just hope you will stop and think about it from another perspective for just a minute.  i'm sure all transsexuals of either gender will hear and understand this.  crossdressing is a behavior...transsexulism is an identity.  they cannot be treated the same, they are not the same.  it's a mistake to try to make them the same.  it's just not realistic.

I don't hate you at all.  In many ways, I used to be you.  But it was by examining the incompatibile results of that opinion that I came to put it it aside.  So, basically, I don't think for a moment that you think preop TS women should be excluded from using women's facilities.  My use of hyperbole and metaphor might not have been evident.  But I don't think it can be very comfortable for you to continue to hold onto this opinion, and not because of any external pressure from the likes of me.  But let me turn your words around, for the sake of argument:

i think a preop TS woman who doesn't pass should take responsibility for her own actions.  i think a preop TS woman who doesn't pass should confine her RLT to places where facilities are available to her.  if she chooses to go to places where she might be beaten up or killed the perogative is hers and the consequences are hers as well.

Do really think that way?  I doubt it.  Do you think society will really ever see preop TS women who don't pass and CDs differently?  I doubt it.  Can you think of any solution to our mutual problem than for society to adopt a bright line rule permitting CDs and preop TS alike to use the facility of presentation?  I doubt it.

[Osiris]

*invades thread*

Ok, so the argument is that men should not invade a woman's area. However, in the first post it's already stated that FtMs where there. So I guess it's only certain men are allowed to invade.

Maybe the real issue here is their lack of understanding, their trying to identify with the women in the group. So in that case it should be, men who try to identify with women should not invade a woman's space.

Wouldn't it be great if this "invasion" could be seen as an opportunity to educate? With how little information is available to the public on TS you'd think this would be a great time to offer some up for people who want to learn. Maybe as they went to more meetings they'd find that they truly don't relate to you, but leave with a better knowledge of what you go through. Or maybe you'd find that you had more in common that you'd thought.

I think we can give and take a lot from people who're different than us. All we need to do is give each other a chance.

[Keira]

Not the restroom thing again!!!
I wonder how many times TG's or TS put themselves in
the shoes of others not like them.
Never seen so much naval gazing.

Oh, and condescension is not a very efficient rhetorical
deivice glenda. "I used to be like you". Shhhshh.

This whole thread has been the least informative ever,
nobody really listens to what others say...

[Laura91]

I think we can give and take a lot from people who're different than us. All we need to do is give each other a chance.

That is a good idea.

[Ell]

9. If you disagree with transgender individuals, or activities which cross gender boundaries take your arguments to a more appropriate web site.

10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.

15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

i'm embarrassed about the tone and intent of this whole thread. and i don't see how it is not a violation of site rules 9, 10, and 15.

-Ell

[Lisbeth]

*invades thread*

Ok, so the argument is that men should not invade a woman's area. However, in the first post it's already stated that FtMs where there. So I guess it's only certain men are allowed to invade.

Maybe the real issue here is their lack of understanding, their trying to identify with the women in the group. So in that case it should be, men who try to identify with women should not invade a woman's space.

Wouldn't it be great if this "invasion" could be seen as an opportunity to educate? With how little information is available to the public on TS you'd think this would be a great time to offer some up for people who want to learn. Maybe as they went to more meetings they'd find that they truly don't relate to you, but leave with a better knowledge of what you go through. Or maybe you'd find that you had more in common that you'd thought.

I think we can give and take a lot from people who're different than us. All we need to do is give each other a chance.

Thank you for invading, Osiris.  What I find disturbing about the whole scene as described, hopefully from your perspective, is that there are some people who do not view FtoMs as men.  They say that FtoMs are not an invasion of women's space because they are still women.  I imagine that if I were you, I would be very disturbed by that.

[Shana A]

To return to the OP subject, approximately 15 years ago I came out as transgender in rural VA, and drove into the DC area to attend support group meetings. Probably the same group that Wing Walker went to a few years later. I felt very uncomfortable there, and for the most part, was given the cold shoulder by the professionally dressed women. In all likelihood, in my funky thrift store hippie clothes, I didn't look any better than the people she describes in her post (I can assure you I wasn't scratching my privates though). After a couple of meetings, I didn't return. It was clearly not my crowd.

Basically, I think we need to look past appearances, to the person inside. Possibly the person who CDs on weekends suffers as much pain about their gender as a transsexual woman or man, but circumstances aren't right for her to transition. Doesn't make her any less human.

Zythyra

[Kate]

Basically, I think we need to look past appearances, to the person inside...

For what it's worth, my support group was generally for TSs only. And yet for the first few months, I showed up as an ordinary male.

And yet I was welcomed and made to feel perfectly comfortable from the very first session.

~Kate~

[Shana A]

For what it's worth, my support group was generally for TSs only. And yet for the first few months, I showed up as an ordinary male.

The one I attended was supposedly for all trans people, although it was mostly M2F TS or CDs. I don't think it would've helped if I'd shown up as male either... I really just didn't fit in w that crowd. Some of the women's shoes cost more than my entire outfit... or even my car LOL.

Z

[cindybc]

Hi Kate. the trans support group we have here in Vancouver acccepts pretty well anyone, but rareley do we have TV's or CD's except for ocasinally we may have a CD but the rooms are mostly for F/M or M/F. The one CD that was showing up for meetings I was able to have some exchanges with, she decided that that our TS meetup is where she belongs. Actually I have also helped a couple of CD's on this group to cross the line. In that manner I would say that is crucial that we are able to cross-pollenate in this manner.

Cindy

[Alicia Marie]

  Since the original question was about men in women's places I have to ask this:

  If a boy grows up feeling female and joins a group such as this and ends up being straight is he still welcome here?

  After all, he is a man in a woman's area. (at least in the MtF areas)
 
  The reason I have to ask is this:

  1: I actually have found the transsexual community to experience many things I have experienced.
  2: The transsexual community seems to actually not look down their pious nose at others like many straight people do. (Most of them anyway)
  3: I just can't stand trying to fit in with straight people other than at work. (only because I have to)
  4: Most straight people appear too arogant to me (I may be wrong but that's how I see it)
  5: I do not want to be where I am not wanted nor to have my presence make any uncomfortable or angry.

  In conclusion, I only use the term straight in general references. I see the trans-men here as men regardless of pre-post op and the trans-women as women in like manner as the guys.

  Alicia

 

[glendagladwitch]

I am confused what you mean by straight and its relationship to feeling female?  Gender identity and sexual orientation are typically viewed as two different things.  For example, there are a great many biological males who transition to become lesbian women.  They have female gender identity but are sexually oriented towards other women, and therefore not straight as far as I understand the term.  If a biological male identifies as female but is sexually oriented toward men, then we say she is a straight woman.

But it is unclear if maybe you think feeling female means that a biological male is not straight.  I don't think that is what most other people mean when they talk about straight versus homosexual.  So please try and explain the situation more specifically.  Is it a biological male who feels female but likes to date women.  Is it a biological male who feels female for a while and then stops feeling female and starts feeling male?  Something else?

[Alicia Marie]

  I guess to clarify I felt female growing up and enjoyed all of the things girls do. I also hated being a boy in body.
  I pretty much married just to do what society expected and love my wife.
  Little did I know back then that my wife always felt like a boy growing up and hated having a girl's body. She loves me as much as I love her.
  We both never considered any forms of transition because of where we live and the time frame we grew up in back then. We never even knew what a transsexual was back then. I guess each of us just thought we were different.
  It does make for a strange relationship with her being more butch and me being more fem. Still in all, we just live as straight with no desire to transition.
  Since neither of us want  to transition I tend to think that makes us straight and not transsexual regardless of what we felt growing up or how we live now.
  If that is the case then me being a straight guy and posting on transsexual sites that MtF transsexuals post on is a man posting on a woman's place.
  Hence, if I identify as straight, would I still be welcome in a woman's place such as a MtF thread?
  Or, would I be an invader?
  Alicia


Posted on: March 16, 2025, 07:14:04 PM  Upon thinking on this please disregard the above info as that was merely my way of saying why I prefer this site. Not everyone that is straight is really straight I guess. I know I do not like straight sites as even though I consider myself straight certain things just never have made sense and I often feel out of place on them.
  The main point of the question would be this:
  Would a straight man be welcome on a MtF transsexual thread since it is a woman's thread?
  I hope that clarifies it. My wording is often poor.
  Alicia

[NicholeW.]

Alicia,

In our circles "straight" and "gay" and "bi" usually form a sexual-orientation spectrum. "Cissexual" & "transsexual" & "androgyne (here) form a gender-sexual (as in male or female = "sex") spectrum.

I think the confusion between you and Glenda is that she is more used to that terminology and that you are maybe not so much.

I hope this will clarify instead of totally bogging down your exchanges.

Best,

Nichole

[Alicia Marie]

Nichole,
  Thank you so much for the explanation.
  I originally asked the question just to see if a straight man would be an invader here and not to bring confusion.
  For that I am sorry. I would never want to hurt anyone here or anger them.
  As for the other issues, in due time I will track down some answers.
  Once again, thank you.
  Alicia

[NicholeW.]

"Straight" men are totally welcomed!! What would we do without 'em?? 

N~

[Alicia Marie]

Nichole,
  Thank you so much. You are so kind and patient. I appreciate it more than you know.
Alicia

[NicholeW.]

Nichole,
  Thank you so much. You are so kind and patient. I appreciate it more than you know.
Alicia

Thanks for the "thank you," Alicia. TBH, you make it quite easy to be "kind and patient." You are just a very nice person yourself: understanding and truly show a willingness to learn and an acknowledgment that you may be unknowledgeable about some things.

Thank you for putting up with us and making the attempt to understand us. I know that must be difficult when we begin arguing amongst ourselves about things that prolly most people view as "numbering angels on pin-heads!"

Nichole

[cindybc]

The originator's intent on this thread was to get feedback from folks here who have had experience in support groups, both in the real world and cyber world.  It was not meant to alienate our trans bros, but to the contrary. It is just as crucial to obtain feed back from them as well. It was only meant to collect the opinions of those who have had experience with TS meet-up groups. Not to alienate anyone here on (Susan's) forums.  Its basis is the encroachment by those males who were born male and have no desire to make any changes beyond the superficial to call themselves "female."
   

Cindy