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severely pissed.........the needs of many outweigh the one

Started by mickie88, August 18, 2008, 01:59:20 PM

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mickie88

i'm sorry, but the bathroom thing has come up again at work, for a month and a half if not longer i had no problem using the ladies, so i didn't think that it was really ever going to be a problem. but since corporate assumes i'm some big 350 pound male in a dress they say i can dress female, but require me to use the men's room and they just can't wrap their bigoted heads around why i blatantly refuse. i'm transitioning once i don't plan on doing it, nor do i plan on being labeled an effin pervert like they want to do. i have written the aclu and the hrc(big joke, right?) and as soon as i find out whether it's associates or customers i'll be talking to a lawyer. my wife and i think they won't be keeping me around much longer, so i'll be able to add gender identity discrimination to the list as well. both my wife and i think that a letter from my therapist will do jacksquat since this is the state of ohio.

the girls i've talked to at work all say they are comfortable with me everywhere including the ladies room and that i should fight because walmart policy is bullcrap. any other job, i would have said here's my badge, you just lost one of the best people you had. but this is different because i actually have people who seem to care that i be treated as equal as every other female.

imo, it's someone that's lying to me, customers, or it's the male associates. those are truly the few people it could be and i know a lawyer is going to want to know exactly who and why they are complaining. i think it's complete bull->-bleeped-<- that they are concerned about my safety when i'm behind the register but they think little ol' me is going to physically assault women that are two or three times my size, no offense is meant, but a lot of them are taller and outweigh me by 100 pounds or so. at barely 100 pounds myself the only chance i've got is to run!!!! i'm looking for another job, but i know without spending the extra money, i need to change my license and birth certificate, i'm going to be screwed and added to the list of the unemployed.

Ohio-the COMPLICATED state

Warrior Princess Mickie
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Chaunte


A couple other organizations you might want to consider contacting.

National Center for Lesbian Rights.  http://www.nclrights.org/site/PageServer

National Center for Transgender Equality.  http://www.nctequality.org/

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NicholeW.

You might want to contact Lambda Legal. They actually do excellent work and are lawyers.

Sorry for the problems with Wallyworld, Mickie. :icon_hug:

Nichole
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mickie88

they said they did their research and as long as my stuff doesn't match they'd prefer i use the men's room. trust me i know about Smith v. Salem, they just want to make sure i'm labeled a perv. i told my wife i plan to be fired cause the only reason they can fire me for right now is "violation of policy."  i really don't think it would look too good in court when they are asked what the violation of policy was. this Bill guy seems to be a complete moron when it comes to trans issues. wonder if they'll pay for my funeral if i use the men's room. the former store manager said he had a lot of complaints from customers, so did a few other managers, but when he left it put them in a bind, because they wanted to talk to "the man." i do have management in the store to fight for me, but i mentioned lawyer so i figure if corporate wants to let me go, they can and will, but i'll sue for wrongful termination, sex discrimination, invasion of privacy since they are blatantly wanting to know what kind of genitalia i have, not to mention, the state of ohio doesn't want to follow the federal law of the policy of least astonishment. walmart and the state think they are above federal law.

thax everybody, i'm trying to get in touch with as many people as i can, because it's like i told another i'm not just fighting for me, i'm also fighting for anyone who joins me or comes after me. i'm not the first and i know i won't be the last.


Warrior Princess Mickie
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Alicia Marie

Mickie,
If some of the guys in your store are like those in ours don't forget promoting a hostile enviroment and placing you in unneccessary danger.
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Kate

Quote from: The Only Warrior Princess Mickie on August 18, 2008, 01:59:20 PM
both my wife and i think that a letter from my therapist will do jacksquat since this is the state of ohio.

The letter can't hurt, as it'll put the process into a more "official," medical context for them. I know Ohio is a bit behind the times, but STILL... that letter is what I used to "justify" myself at work when I came out to management.

~ Katie Marie ~
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mickie88

thanx, Kate. i got my letter but they didn't even want to see it.

Alice, yes one of the guys in my store is quite hostile and if i used the men's room while he was in there would seriously promote a hostile environment. not to mention the male customers.

to be honest, Walmart doesn't have a policy based on gender identity-they blatantly refuse to adopt one. the only thing that protects me in that is my sexual orientation, which is lesbian of course. but gee whiz, i'm a service writer and don't need a public bathroom to socialize or to commit sexual acts.

ohio promising to stay behind every other state by 30+ years.......

Warrior Princess Mickie
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Alicia Marie

Mickie,
  If you really feel endangered you might be able to push the issue and request a Security escort to stand outside the restroom door. If they refused it just might strengthen your case for placing you in unneccessary danger. And, of course, the television news, unions and everyone that hates Wally*World would just love that.
  If they were thinking about getting rid of me I would try to be a thorn in their butt that would make them regret they hired me.
  I hope it all works out for your best interest.
  Alicia
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glendagladwitch

Here is a second vote that you contact Lambda Legal for help.  I know the Etsitty case is kind of a bad legal precedent that makes it look like they can fire you for using the ladies' room without violating Title VII.  But in Etsitty, the plaintiff admitted that it is not protected gender non-conforming behavior for a legally male employee to use the ladies' room.  Cole Thaler is the attorney at Lambda Legal who specializes in cases involving discrimination against transgendered employees.  He is having success in winning Title VII cases like this.
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Sarah Dreams

Just to throw a bit of reality in here - Transsexuals are not a protected class. You may have a hard time convincing a judge that there is such a thing *legally* as Gender Identity Descrimination.
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Sarah Dreams

Quote from: Tasha Elizabeth on October 11, 2008, 04:59:28 PM
may i suggest you read Schroer v. Library of Congress, where a federal judge held exactly that

As I see it,  because her gender is legally female places the transgender female squarely into the protected status of being female. Cool.
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Sarah Dreams

But it did not change the status of transsexuals. We are still not a protected class although it is a moot point given the ruling. That she was TS was just incidental to her legal gender. I love the law.
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glendagladwitch

My interpretation, as a lawyer, is that the second holding in the Schroer case, that it is literally sex discrimination to fire someone for changing their sex, seeks to overturn the Ulane line of cases that transexuals are not a protected class.  Meanwhile, the first holding of the case that it is also sex stereotyping, is firmly in line with the Price Waterhouse line of cases, without extending them in any way.

That is not to say that it essentially declares "transgender" to be a protected class under the second holding.  Rather, only those who are legally changing their sex (i.e. transexual persons).  But there was also dicta saying that other types of transgendered might also be protected under a literal reading (e.g., intersexed, I presume).

As was discussed at length, the Schroer case is not binding anywhere, including other district courts in the DC Circuit.  And many other Circuits have conflicting law that prevent courts in those Circuits from following the Schroer decision, even if they want to apply it.  Plus, it seems highly likely that the Schroer case will be overturned by the ultra conservative Circuit Court, and the Supreme Court will refuse to hear the subsequent appeal by denying Certiorari.  But that will not likely have any impact on the Price Waterhouse line, which remains our best tool for protection and is available nationwide.

To recap, the Price Waterhouse line of cases says that it is illegal uder Title VII to discriminate against someone for gender non-conforming appearance and/or behavior.  It amounts to a right to freedom of gender expression.  Men can present as women at work and vice versa, regardless of whether they are transexual.  The weakness in the doctrine is that of the Pretext for firing on "other" grounds.  For example, the employer might show they fired you for being a transexual person regardless of whether you intended to ever present as the other gender (e.g., they have a history of firing people diagnosed as transexual but evidencing an intent to never transition).  Or, as in Etsitty, if they can say it is because they are afraid of being sued when you use the public ladies room as a preop (although I think it key that the plainitiff ADMITTED in that case that use of the ladies' restroom was not protected gender non-conforming bahavior for a non-transgendered male).  But in the case of private, not public, restrooms, and where one pleads that all men have the right to use the ladies' room, and where the employer asserts no other credible pretext for firing you, then protection under the Price Waterhouse line of cases seems likely to me.

But let me be clear: I am not your lawyer; and this is not legal advice.
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Sarah Dreams

Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 12, 2008, 09:41:27 AM
But let me be clear: I am not your lawyer; and this is not legal advice.

And as such, you'll not be receiving the usual fee. ;)

Just kidding. My wife is a lawyer and she would kill me if she knew I was arguing legal matters - practicing law without an education as it were.

Thanks for the clarification.
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Sarah Dreams

It certainly does not happen that way in the 9th *circus* court. Nearly everything they do gets struck down by a higher court.
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joannatsf

There is a book about how to navigate the restroom problem.  It's put out by Transgender Law Center (my very own lawyers!) in San Francisco called Peeing in Peace.  Click on the link to download the pdf version.
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Suzy

I love that resource.  It is a great starting point for the discussion, even if it is a bit optimistic for the south.  But it definitely has some of the best advice out there.

Kristi
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mickie88

thx all, i'm riding it out by ear now as the new store manager has arrived and in a couple of weeks i will going back to work full time in a couple of weeks, so we'll see what happens then. i'm looking and applying other places tho.



Warrior Princess Mickie
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glendagladwitch

Hope you find that job elsewhere.  On your last day at work at Cabal-mart, how about printing this out and tacking it to the bulletin board:

Dear Female Employees,

One of your coworkers, much to our annoyance, has informed us that he will be becoming a "she."  Normally, we would require "her" to use the hole in the floor in the janitor's closet in place of any of the mens' or ladies' restrooms.  However, for some inexplicable reason, we have decided to be fair this time.  Therefore, on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, your freaky co-worker will be using the hole in the floor in the janitor's closet.  However, on Tuesdays and Thurdays, "she" will be using the ladies' room, while the rest of you must use the hole in the floor of the janitor's closet.  Anyone mysteriously not freaked out and willing to use the ladies' room with the FREAK on Tuesdays and Thursdays will not be permitted to do so.  However, if all of you vote that the FREAK will be permitted to use the ladies' room at all times, then no one will be forced to use the hole in the floor of the janitor's closet.  However, the vote must be unanimous.  Please cast your vote in the space provided below and return it to the gender police representative on your floor by 5pm today.

Thank-you,
The Management
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Alicia Marie

Mickie,
  I thought about you last night when some chick from an Ohio Wallyworld requested a song on the Wallyworld overnight radio program.
  It's probably a bad idea but maybe if you're no in danger you should just stick around to be a thorn in their side. Wallyworld tends to use and shortchange everyone and get away with it. Maybe just do the opposite of what they want and don't let them drive you off. That is, if money isn't a dire factor.
  The only rules I haven't bent at our store are the ones I've broken.
  But then again, I never get any raises either.
  But it's fun.
  Alicia
 
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