For all those who say we are sinners..

[Princess_Jasmine]

I read a thread today and it broke my heart.

Well folks I have turned my back on my Christian faith once and for all...I had someone who I thought was a real friend turn her back on me,she said that what I am doing is not Gods will,I am so angry and hurt I cant tell you,I feel betrayed by her as I have been there continiously for the last few years....this has given me a real emotional wobble I tell you.
                                                                                                                      But those who have transitioned and those who still are understand me when I say that I have to be true to myself and rejection by folk is common place...oh well move on eh?,but I am still smarting and trusting folk is getting ever harder.....

Its funny because NOWHERE in the bible does it attack people who are born with GID. Therefore how can we be sinners? Yes there are two places in the bible that people think attack the Transsexual community but those who researched the meaning of these two passages know that is false.

"A woman must not wear men's clothing, and a man must not wear women's clothing. The Lord your God detests people who do this" (Deuteronomy 22:5)

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Translation on #1 = This verse was written in the bible at a time when wars were commonly fought and armies had to recruit a number of men from towns at the appropriate age. Many men would disguise themselves as women to avoid this. Also, this biblicial verse was written to keep the women and elderly of society out of the army so they would not have to participate in wars and combat.

Translation on #2 = I have done research on this verse as well and apparently the word "effeminate" used in those days was to mean a man who would usually hang around women so as to use them sexually. In other words, an effeminate man in those days would be considered today's player. Also, although this is off topic, I want to point out also why homosexuality is condemned. In the biblical ages, when armies defeated their opponents in battle, they would sometimes rape their victims to show dominance and control. This is a sin and is why it is stated in the bible that homosexuality is wrong. Of course, to engage in homosexual contact is wrong if it is not natural for you. So in other words, Im a straight female and for me to make out with a girl would be wrong. Or if I was a lesbian, it would also be wrong to make out with a male.

People should remember that alot of the bible is written in parables and not everything is exactly as it appears. That is why wisdom is required. So for the naive people who like to blame others and point out everyone else's flaws, they have a field day in hating on our community. Of course, the main teaching of the bible is to love all and not judge. Why? Just because we don't understand someone or something they do doesnt mean it is against God's will. Also its not God's fault we are this way so dont blame Him! The devil does bad things to good people because the bad people are already on his side so who else for him to hurt? Us of course! So dont give up on faith because God knows we didnt choose this and we know its not our fault either. May God bless you all on your journey!

[Maddie Secutura]

I like that.  Of course the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally.  There is a passage in there somewhere about angels fathering the Nephilim or something like that and we don't have titans lumbering about the earth. 

[Ms Bev]

     I can relate with that.  Marcy and I left our church of 20 years about 4 weeks ago.  Why?  Because the good people there treated us like dirt, or worse.  I'm talking about people who were our friends.  People we've known for a long time.  People we had to our house, and us theirs, to have meals together. When I went fulltime, I only went to church occasionally, as my work schedule permitted (supposedly).  Really, I didn't want Marcy to have a bad church experience.  But when she learned I was staying out for her sake, she insisted we attend together, arm in arm, or not at all. 
so, we did just that.  I told her what she could expect, but she said no, not these people.....not these close friends.  I told her again and again how things would turn out, and so, she learned.  Our good friends turned their backs on her as well as me, talked behind our backs, treated us like poop.

     Three weeks ago we went church shopping, and ended up trying a church nearby.  The service was lovely, and the sermon very different in tone from our old church.  It was very upbeat, very encouraging,    very.....well....Christian.  We met many of the people, who were glad to have us attend, and turned in the guest card.  We filled it out 'Marcy _____ and Beverly _____', partner. 
     She said "draw a line through the word spouse, and write partner.  I want them to know our relationship". 
     On our way out, the minister and assistant minister read the card, welcomed us, and both expressed the hope that we would return. 
     We have returned, the last two weeks, with two of our grandchildren for sunday school.  Every time we attend, we fill out the card, the same way, alternating who is 'partner'.  The grandchildren call Marcy Grammy, and call me Nanna.  No one thinks a thing, and are as warm and welcoming as can be.  They asked if they could send literature (newsletters, membership, etc).

     So far, we have been welcomed by everyone, and they all love the children.  So far, so good.  I can't help waiting, though, for the shoe to fall.  A lot of folks can tolerate lesbian......but transsexual?
     We'll see.

[Kimberly]

The devil does bad things to good people because the bad people are already on his side so who else for him to hurt?

Personally I am more inclined to say people do bad things to people. Mind you there are things out there, but in the same I am a firm believer in credit where credit is due. I really do think the reasons for most ills are in the hands of the people themselves. But hay, what would I know right?

[Kaitlyn]

Alright, I'm going to barge in here and look like a pompous ass...

Of course, the main teaching of the bible is to love all and not judge.

I'm sorry, but I honestly wonder if you've read the entire book.  The Christian bible - Old and New Testament both - is filled with examples of divinely-sanctioned intolerance, irrationality, bigotry, cruelty, oppression, torture, rape, slavery, murder, and even outright genocide.  I'm being deadly serious when I say that all of the truly good-hearted Christians I know are moral in spite of the bible's teachings, not because of them.  In fact, the vast majority of them won't listen to or believe me when I confront them with the more horrid biblical tales.  They just don't think such things exist in their book. (Jael's tent-stake, anyone?)

Good people don't need religion to behave well or be happy - most people have a natural capacity for empathy, taking pleasure in the happiness of others.  Religion subverts that capacity for empathy, making otherwise good people able to do insanely evil things with a clear conscience.  Against the possibility of some immaterial fantasy afterlife of eternal bliss, what possible objection could human empathy raise to violence and oppression?  After all, a little torture for someone now might save her soul in the long run - or so it goes. The only restraints at this point are more words on paper (e.g. Thou shalt not kill"), which people can interpret away ("Oh, that only applies to murder - this is justice/self-defense/an accident/retribution/vengeance/war/jihad!").  Empathy is all but gone, and baser instincts rule.

My rant has finished; the passion is quenched.  Feel free to /ignore me.

[Mnemosyne]

"They say there's a heaven for those who will wait
Some say it's better but I say it ain't
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints
the Sinners are much more fun..."

I'm sorry, but I honestly wonder if you've read the entire book.

I have heard that if any of them actually do that, they will catch pneumonia and die. Wait, that is scientology. But then I really cannot tell the difference between that one and the christian based mythos.

[liv]

It's important to remember also if we're going to take the Christian myth as reality, then the old-testament doesn't apply in place of the new. Deut. is old testament, and therefore null and void by Christian's only beliefs that the "new" testament is a replacement for it.

Your mileage may vary, as every individual seemingly wants to decided their own imaginary version of the text.

Best bets are to put down the book all together and re-examine exactly why you cling to beliefs that are contradictory of themselves, irrational, and even hateful towards yourself as a person, and other minorities.

[Northern Jane]

If you believe in the Christian God and the Bible, you believe that God created mankind "in his image and likeness", that God created us all. If God created me and I am (was) a transsexual, then that is the way God made me and I to was made in his image and likeness.

(Go stuff that in your dogma and smoke it!)

[Ms Bev]

If you believe in the Christian God and the Bible, you believe that God created mankind "in his image and likeness", that God created us all. If God created me and I am (was) a transsexual, then that is the way God made me and I to was made in his image and likeness.

(Go stuff that in your dogma and smoke it!)

My beliefs are along the lines of evolutionary creationism.  For me, creation is an evolutionary process, and diversity is an evolutionary imperative.  However, I will never tell anyone to stick that in their dogma pipe and smoke it.

[soldierjane]

Jasmine,

Religion is definitely a matter of interpretation, which is why the Catholic church knew to keep to one official one from early on. Regardless of what house of prayer people attend though, they still have their *own* interpretation anyway, which means that both your ex-friend's ideas and yours are perfectly ok.
If you ask me, other than the overtly poetic stuff like the parables, the Bible was *not* made to be interpreted willy-nilly. It was conceived for a tribal, credulous and uneducated population which needed a clear and direct message: mess with this -> face the consequences. It was also a population that like everyone, craved to understand the world and how it related to their everyday lives.

What you mention in regards to why those verses were written is all well and good but then you can't both hold that *and* the fact the Bible as a whole is God's dictum. If God was setting down rules for the ages, then He couldn't have let something as obvious as the condition of the times slip in, could He? If so, then we would need a God-inspired rewrite of the Bible every few hundred years and we all know that is blasphemous to any Bible-based religious community which considers its words monolithic and unchanging.

Sometimes you just can't both have the cake and eat it.

[liv]

There's some irony, that according to your beliefs, the God of christianity created all of us in the wrong gender. Personally I think he is just messing with us....

I say, let's get him back....

[sneakersjay]

If you believe in the Christian God and the Bible, you believe that God created mankind "in his image and likeness", that God created us all. If God created me and I am (was) a transsexual, then that is the way God made me and I to was made in his image and likeness.

That's my mother's biggest issue.  She's religious, and feels that since God made me this way, he has a purpose in that.  So she doesn't really want me to transition because that would be changing what God made (he doesn't make mistakes) and changing his will/plan for me.

She's supportive even thought she really wishes I would just accept the fact that okay, I'm male in a female body, cool, and be done with it.  If only it were that simple.

Jay

[Kimberly]

That's my mother's biggest issue.  She's religious, and feels that since God made me this way, he has a purpose in that.  So she doesn't really want me to transition because that would be changing what God made (he doesn't make mistakes) and changing his will/plan for me.

The problem with that thought pattern is that it presumes to both known and understand what Father wants for us. I strongly think transition is sometimes what is wanted, and others an unfortunate known of some other choice/event. In fewer words I believe it is possible that not transitioning is "going against what should be", in essence. One really does need to follow their heart in such things. I think, anyway.

[tekla]

The problem with that thought pattern is that it presumes to both known and understand what Father wants for us.

No, the problem is in thinking there is some sort of "Father" or "Mother" who wants anything for us in the first place.  Should such an entity exist, I would assume they have more important things to do than worry about you.  Such hubris to assume that the creator of the entire universe is spending their time worrying about individual people, on a remote planet on some far flung quadrant of the same universe.

[Kimberly]

The problem with that thought pattern is that it presumes to both known and understand what Father wants for us.

No, the problem is in thinking there is some sort of "Father" or "Mother" who wants anything for us in the first place.  Should such an entity exist, I would assume they have more important things to do than worry about you.  Such hubris to assume that the creator of the entire universe is spending their time worrying about individual people, on a remote planet on some far flung quadrant of the same universe.

An exceptionally special planet, an if you want to look at it from that point of view I'd say the problem is too much willful blindness. Just because you can not see it does not mean it doesn't exist (right?). It is a different context, presumptions and assumptions here are not playing with all of the data.

One could probably draw an analogy between a tribesman who has not had contact with "modern" ways and their difficulty to understand a match or lighter. (I wish I could remember where I heard that, something about an aboriginal people out in the outback quite a number of years ago I guess.)

[sarahb]

Should such an entity exist, I would assume they have more important things to do than worry about you.

Also, should such an entity exist, what makes us required to obey and listen to this "god" anyways? My sentiment is that in nature there are different levels of intelligence. The ones who have a greater amount of intelligence have the control. What does "creation" matter as to how supreme a being the creator is?

Think of it this way...humans have "created" sheep, mice, and a host of other animals through the technology of cloning. Does that mean that they should get down on their knees and prey to us? Some might argue that we are going too far and trying to be gods. Hmm, if we have the capacity to do it then...doesn't that make us gods in our own definition of it?

I would then like to pose the question...what does it mean to be a god?

If it is due to the ability to create, check that one off for humans.
If it is the ability to be compassionate and loving (as the Christian god "supposedly" is), then check that one off too.
If it is the ability to dominate and control other lifeforms, definitely check that one off as well.

With all this knowledge, not fact, not fiction, but just knowledge of how you perceive a god to be and how you know humans to be, then what is the rational justification for believing in a so-called god?

[tekla]

An exceptionally special planet

By what criteria?  That we only know of one like it out of the entire range of 9 we actually know about?  Given that there are billions of stars, perhaps billions of galaxies, and knowing the range could be more than 10% based on what we know, there might well be billions just as 'special' as us.

If you can't see it, or find any direct evidence of it, it does not mean it does not exist, but you've sure pumped up the odds of that being the case.

[Kaitlyn]

For the purposes of religious debate, it doesn't matter how rare Earth-type planets might be in the universe.  Life happened.  We exist.  We're here.  The odds of us being here, now, on this planet, are 100%.  Whatever the odds of that life coming into existence here without divine intervention, they don't matter.  If habitable planets are so scarce that only one exists in the entire universe, then that's Earth, and the scarcity does nothing to prove God's existence.

Even if it did justify belief in a creator in general, it does nothing to support the Christian god in particular.  After all, nearly every religion has its own creation mythos.  Neither does it support the ideas that the creator designed us specifically, or has a plan for us, or watches over us, or is aware of our species at all.  Worse - it has no bearing on whether the creator itself is conscious, or even still extant.

P.S. - I just want to make clear that whatever my feelings about religion, I don't dislike anyone for having religious convictions, and I'm not out to deliberately antagonize people.  Anyone who has a sincere belief in the nobility and greatness of humanity, and the worthiness of the individual in particular, is OK by me.  If you don't think like that, maybe I can bring you around!

[Kimberly]

An exceptionally special planet

By what criteria?  That we only know of one like it out of the entire range of 9 we actually know about?  Given that there are billions of stars, perhaps billions of galaxies, and knowing the range could be more than 10% based on what we know, there might well be billions just as 'special' as us.

Perhaps it is fortunate that I do not call this planet special because it has life on it then.

If you can't see it, or find any direct evidence of it, it does not mean it does not exist, but you've sure pumped up the odds of that being the case.

I most certainly agree with you.

For the purposes of religious debate, ...

Just to clarify, please note I do not reference any religion with what I say. Nor, for that matter, do I follow any religion.


Sand in the wind and all, just my opinion...

[Kaitlyn]

Just to clarify, please note I do not reference any religion with what I say. Nor, for that matter, do I follow any religion.

Duly noted, but your previous reference to "Father" confuses me.  In any case,  I was continuing the general strain begun by tekla and continued by SarahR.