Autism and transsexuality

[Maebh]

The brain is a complex organism and only in the past thirty years have they made any real inroads on the study of the human brain.

Cindy

Wich brings the question of nature versus nurture? Could one be geneticaly pre-disposed one way but with training one be able to learn to access more brain functions. From the answers it seems that with a bit of patience and will power quite a few were able to reverse the spin. Or is it because here at Susan's, "the sample" is askew due to our common TGism? >
I always knew WE WERE ALL SPECIAL! 

LLL&R

Maebh
   

[Melissa]

I started seeing it only turning clockwise, but now it seems to switch back and forth on me.  Weird.  Oh yeah, I have epilepsy, but not autism.

[Hypatia]

Consider this...
http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2008/09/18/vlog/index.html

about a study finding that autism presents itself differently in girls than in boys and, most interesting, that some girls' symptoms may go unnoticed because of our views of femininity. One expert, the National Autistic Society's Judith Gould, told the BBC: "The way autism is presented in women can be very complex and so can be missed. It might be that due to misconceptions and stereotypes, many girls and women with autism are never referred for diagnosis, and so are missing from statistics."

[cindybc]

Hi Hypatia, that was a very interesting article with video, except I wish I had a colt forty five to shoot that darn Cadillac advert that kept me from seeing the complete video.

Hi Maebh, yes there are those who can access both he left and right side of the brain equally.  Ambidexterity is one example of that. A woman who is adept at interior decoration and can do detailed labor and materials estimates might also be another.

To be sure there are many women who are quite capable of doing a mans work while still retaining a woman's inner person, just like more men today who are taking over the care of children and other what use to be exclusively female activities.

I know only a smidgen about genetics and one thing that I do remember reading somewhere about DNA activation, which simply means using ones own will to access and reactivate dormant DNA strands. I also beleive that our DNA is in some way connected to the subconscious mind.

Cindy   

[Aiden]

I know am a guy in the girl's section but got curious and tried the girl spinning thing.  Seemed to go clockwise mostly but every once in a while switch for some reason.

And as far as Autisim, never was diagnosed with it though had family who thought I was mildly.

[cindybc]

I found this link that you may you all may find interesting

Transsexuals experience themselves as being of the opposite sex, despite having the biological characteristics of one sex. A crucial question resulting from a previous brain study in male-to-female transsexuals was whether the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or just a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala, which was used as a marker.

Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range.

Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

Cindy

[metal angel]

Actually there are heaps and heaps of neurological studies that show transexuals group with tehir preferred sex not their birth sex. Well to be honest i can't think of that many, but i can't think of any that group them with their birth sex for anything neurological.

Maybe some sort of neurological diagnosis (a brain scan or something) could be used to more quickly diagnose those that could better benifit from SRS and other re-assignemnt treatments? This could weed out the few people who may feel unhappy with their gender or body, but who may feel no happier in a new body. It may also allow earlier treatment to be given more confidently, if it could be accurately diagnosed in 12-year-olds maybe puberty-blockers could be given making later transition easier. Obviously personal choice would be the final decider, but maybe some of the nuerological data could help, more help family and doctors be reassured of the patient's decision than anything else i think?

[Nigella]

Late to this but became curious with the dancer, could not get her to go counter-clockwise at all, only clockwise, I am left handed as well.

Stardust

[LordKAT]

As to the dancer, I looked ans he was going clock then looked away and back she was counter clock, looked away and back clockwise again, It happened everytime I looked away and then back at it again.

[severin]

This is an interesting article which theorizes the actual cause of autism to be the expression of dormant DNA from neanderthals. ""Some autistics feel they were born with the wrong gender. It is common for autistic females to be tomboys and for autistic males to be more passive than is normal.""

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

[metal angel]

that's silly from the outset, we can't have any "doprmant DNA from neanderthals" because we were not decended from neanderthals, they are our cousins not our grandparents.

edit: ok their theory relates to later hybridisation, that's more logical, except it still has a few holes. i take "doesn't appear in peer-reviewed journals" as a bad sign...

[sweetstars]

I do think there is a link with some transsexuals, as thier is a link to undiagnosed IS syndromes.  I don't think there is one single cause to transsexuality, but rather several.  I think that a Pervasive Development Disorder of some sort can cause transsexuality, since gender identity issues is often pervasive in autism spectrum disorders(many people with autism and Aspergers have delayed formulation of gender identity, where it does not exhibit is itself strongly until much later  than in neurotypical kids).  Though I think a link between transsexuality and autism is much stronger in "Early" transitioners, than it is in older transitioners.  There is a higher co-morribund diagnosis in younger transitioners (those who transition under 35), and manifestation of transsexuality in younger transitioners sometimes closely resembles manifestation of AS or PDD-NOS.  In that it often involves social imbalances throughout much of ones life, including social isolation or being the target of extensive bullying.  From what I have seen myself there is often more "autistic traits" with some younger individuals who transition. They are much more likely to be outsiders throughout thier life. (The coralation between autism and transexuality is mentioned in academic journals if you bother to do the research).  Alot of what older individuals have done, the conformity and adaptability thier birth sex pre-transition, suggests a different cause other than a developmental disorder like autism since there is often more social adaptability and conformity pre-transition. 

Even then I think pervasive development disorder is only one of the causes of transsexuality. 

[metal angel]

i did do a bit of research, but i couldn't find anything quantitative, just two or three case studies, can you give us some references?

[Maebh]

that's silly from the outset, we can't have any "doprmant DNA from neanderthals" because we were not decended from neanderthals, they are our cousins not our grandparents.

edit: ok their theory relates to later hybridisation, that's more logical, except it still has a few holes. i take "doesn't appear in peer-reviewed journals" as a bad sign...

Neanderthal in frily underwear, what a picture!

LLL&R

Maebh

PS. If he is a fetishist does that make him an Homo Erectus?

[gnatalie0]

Hi, my first post and I am straight into talking about two or three subjects at once.

First, I am MtoF well in the groove, been trainsitioned 15 years and post-op 11.

Secondly, have AS, brilliant the two......... 'disorders' are related, most of my family are on the spectrum and there are 3 MtoF TS people as well.

Thirdly, I looked at the dancer and got her to go either direction, started off clockwise and very quickly turned her around and back again.

Anybody else here think in pictures? Totally awesome being able to think visually instead of words.

Anyway, thats me!

[Asfsd4214]

I see the dancer turn clockwise, if I focus enough I can perceive is as anti-clockwise, but returns to clockwise again pretty soon.

I've wondered quite a lot between the relationship between autism and gender issues.

When I was little I was diagnosed with ADHD, then later with Aspergers, largely because of my behavioral issues.

But what if GID (or whatever you want to call it) has a tendency to cause similar symptoms early on?

I if anything "grew out" of my supposed Aspergers, to the point where I can't help but feel I was misdiagnosed.

I have done a LOT of reading on Aspergers, and have never been able to make it properly apply to my own issues.
I can't sympathize with problems in "reading people", I don't see myself when I've seen other people diagnosed with aspergers. I would hear about people learning about Aspergers and suddenly realizing that was what they were going through, I never had that.

That is until, I properly read about transsexualism. It was only then that I had that lightbulb moment where I could say "this could be me".

So for me, I wonder a lot about my childhood diagnosis and how it applies, if at all, to me today.
I wonder if perhaps gender identity issues, one of the few things about my childhood I DO remember having, can manifest in ways that could be misinterpreted as autistic behavior.

Just a thought.

[gnatalie0]

So for me, I wonder a lot about my childhood diagnosis and how it applies, if at all, to me today.
I wonder if perhaps gender identity issues, one of the few things about my childhood I DO remember having, can manifest in ways that could be misinterpreted as autistic behavior.

Just a thought.

I think that someone can learn enough coping strategies to overcome some of the autistic traits, therefore as you get older and more experienced in dealing with the problems you once faced, it appears that the diagnosis was incorrect.

I know several other TS people who are also autistic as well and the weight of evidence connecting the two is accumulating, ...........then again there is a weight of evidence produced by Louis Gooren that most of the scientific community has ignored about transsexualism.

At the start of this discussion someone implied that autism is the latest fad, then all I can say is come talk to my dad, brother and his kids, my sister and her kids, and my 4 aspie children. There is no fad, just a hard and sometimes sad reality that they are on the autistic spectrum.

[Ninjette]

Didn't finish reading, sorry, but I gotta comment on the spin thing, I've been to those left brain right brain tests hundreds of times... And for some reason it depends on what eye I look through... (I'll explain in a different thread if someone starts it...) If i'm looking through my right eye she spins like the test claims she should on left brain if I'm looking through the left she spins the other way...with both eyes I can willfully change direction (have been since 2 seconds in about) but the first glance with an eye is always the same....

basically i was just wondering if this is weird but i realize now just the fact that i choose eyes is weird..sorry if i wasted your time reading this, but hopefully it'll be fascinating to someone...

PS: i'm high functioning autistic as well (syndrome: auspergers) and we all know that I'm totally fem. (little hard to be the ninja master of cuteness and not be!)

[Asfsd4214]

I think that someone can learn enough coping strategies to overcome some of the autistic traits, therefore as you get older and more experienced in dealing with the problems you once faced, it appears that the diagnosis was incorrect.

I know several other TS people who are also autistic as well and the weight of evidence connecting the two is accumulating, ...........then again there is a weight of evidence produced by Louis Gooren that most of the scientific community has ignored about transsexualism.

At the start of this discussion someone implied that autism is the latest fad, then all I can say is come talk to my dad, brother and his kids, my sister and her kids, and my 4 aspie children. There is no fad, just a hard and sometimes sad reality that they are on the autistic spectrum.

While I don't for a moment doubt the condition exists, I do suspect it IS over diagnosed at the moment.

As for coping strategies, I've read about these various coping strategies, and I can't see how they apply to the way my mind works at all.

I honestly think my diagnosis was wrong. I don't think they were incompetent in their diagnosis, simply mistaken.

I don't know why I used to act autistic, in fact I don't even know how I used to act at all. I remember shockingly little about my childhood for someone only 21.

But I've never been able to fit myself in with other people with aspergers, and have never had any difficulties with social interaction in my adult life that I've perceived. If I've just learned coping strategies, I'm blind to them to such a degree that the skills I'd supposedly be poor at, feel innate.

My gender issues on the other hand, are very real and that's a description I do feel applies to me very accurately.

[gnatalie0]

Point 1  While I don't for a moment doubt the condition exists, I do suspect it IS over diagnosed at the moment.

Point 2 But I've never been able to fit myself in with other people with aspergers, and have never had any difficulties with social interaction in my adult life that I've perceived. If I've just learned coping strategies, I'm blind to them to such a degree that the skills I'd supposedly be poor at, feel innate.

My gender issues on the other hand, are very real and that's a description I do feel applies to me very accurately.

Point 1 From my experience AS isn't over diagnosed, its just that its recognised more as the experts become more able to put a label on people. Also it appears that there are more older people being diagnosed than there used to, a sort of retrospective diagnosis. My dad who passed on 12 years ago was undoubtedly autistic but of course it wasn't recognised then. As with all aspies, we become experts in our special interests.

Point 2 You are who you feel yourself to be, if it doesn't fit you, then its not you. Easy peasey really, if you are happy with who you are, regardless of any label someone pinned to you, then thats all you can ever wish for. There are lots of people who aren't happy with who they are, but of course, some things just aren't negotiable. It took me a llloooongg time to get that one sorted out in me