Has American Society Gone Insane?

[tekla]

Of course, but its not a magic bullet deal, there are many problems, none of which have been addressed.

[NicholeW.]

Consider the current financial meltdown.  Cassandra types like me have been trying to point it out for well on 15 years now, that you could not deregulate the entire financial and corporate structure and somehow expect to get greater accountability out of it. 

It doesn't seem as if the "Invisible Hand" was ever considered an accountability mechanism in any of the current financial meltdown. Insider knowledge, ready bailouts for those deemed indispensible, the use of more and more exotic and arcane instruments of debt that were used as "securities?" How invisible is that? Hands and heads rather visibly in the cookie jar. Kinda like the girl for the Powerball lottery going through the numbered balls and pulling them out after careful ionvestigation. "O, my number won," says she!! Major surprise!

Nope, no accountability was needed or wanted. There was always that ready source of capital investment: the American taxpayer, to offer up security to the unsecure. Public accountability and "private profit." Just the way the Phil Gramm's and John McCain's and the NeoCons wanted it.

They play and get rich and those who pay for their debt-riches can barely afford to put gas in their cars. Ain't that the way the world is supposed to work? Apres Moi le Deluge.

Nikki

[tekla]

Well invisible hands, much like invisible friends, well that's pretty close to crazy talk as it is.  I always that metaphor was very dumb.

But yeah, as the old blues songs said: If it keeps on raining the levee is going to break, and its pretty much pouring right now.

[debbie j]

Well invisible hands, much like invisible friends, well that's pretty close to crazy talk as it is.  I always that metaphor was very dumb.

But yeah, as the old blues songs said: If it keeps on raining the levee is going to break, and its pretty much pouring right now.

takla your right on that thought  but the sad part of this is it has been  pouring for a while now . until the levee broke, and when it did . well we

know what happened there . and the thing that gets me is that the goverment steped in and did all these  buy out,s and droped a good amount of

cash into the stock market,s to get it back into floating again. but yet the goverment did not step in and stop or rasie a hand to help thos who

got into bad loans that the Mortgage companys gave out . and the other sad part is that the people who took them loans from the Mortgage got

some bad loans . with high rates .. and high payments . that they was not really able to handle in the frist place.  it,s funny how the media  is able

to sing the  public into some kinda of sleep  . and the fact that the public  buys it hook line and bait . makes one wonder what the next shoe drop

will bring next :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:

[Margaret Ann]

Consider the current financial meltdown.  Cassandra types like me have been trying to point it out for well on 15 years now, that you could not deregulate the entire financial and corporate structure and somehow expect to get greater accountability out of it. 

It doesn't seem as if the "Invisible Hand" was ever considered an accountability mechanism in any of the current financial meltdown. Insider knowledge, ready bailouts for those deemed indispensible, the use of more and more exotic and arcane instruments of debt that were used as "securities?" How invisible is that? Hands and heads rather visibly in the cookie jar. Kinda like the girl for the Powerball lottery going through the numbered balls and pulling them out after careful ionvestigation. "O, my number won," says she!! Major surprise!

Nope, no accountability was needed or wanted. There was always that ready source of capital investment: the American taxpayer, to offer up security to the unsecure. Public accountability and "private profit." Just the way the Phil Gramm's and John McCain's and the NeoCons wanted it.

They play and get rich and those who pay for their debt-riches can barely afford to put gas in their cars. Ain't that the way the world is supposed to work? Apres Moi le Deluge.

Nikki

Good observations. I'd add that this is a structural problem in American democracy IMO, not just a problem of conservative ideology. I think its roots can be found in the SC ruling that mandates the equivalance of money and political speech.

Running for office means spending much of your life asking others to give you money. That has to be a degrading experience no matter how much you try not to see it in that way. Once in office it is probably very satisfying having people come to you, tell you how smart you are and offer you large amounts of cash for your next campaign - because they "appreciate your values". All that easy cash means less begging later.

I think liberals and conservatives are equally susceptible to this pressure. If anything, the conservatives are being more upfront by attempting to adopt rules by process that make it all that much easier. I consider myself liberal for the most part but I'd have to admit that our side generally indulges just as much but prefers to pretend that we don't do it.

[NicholeW.]

Thank you, Margaret.

I don't disagree about that Supreme's ruling Margaret. But I also cast my eyes back to what, 1886, here In the landmark 1886 Supreme Court case Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific, a railroad company refused to pay a special county tax in California, arguing (much as sludge hauler Synagro would do in Pennsylvania more than a century later) that to treat it differently from everyone else violated its constitutional rights. Speaking from the bench, Chief Justice Morrison Waite announced, "The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the 14th Amendment...applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does." Cite and Cite where the Sc of the time basically granted individual privilege as an eternally alive person to a corporation.

That was not exactly what the ruling said although the justices were in agreement that they did consider that to be the case. It has dominated our corporate ideology since.

Nichole

[Kaitlyn]

Consider the current financial meltdown.  Cassandra types like me have been trying to point it out for well on 15 years now, that you could not deregulate the entire financial and corporate structure and somehow expect to get greater accountability out of it.

I know someone who works in the field of financial printing, and everything she's told me illustrates just the opposite.  She's involved with lots of SEC filings, and is very familiar with the big players in the financial meltdown - Bear Sterns, AIG, Merrill-Lynch etc.  She says SEC regs and transparency rules are getting more complex all the time - it's anything but unregulated.  She's worked in that field for thirty years, and this is the most heavily regulated it's ever been.

[NicholeW.]

Consider the current financial meltdown.  Cassandra types like me have been trying to point it out for well on 15 years now, that you could not deregulate the entire financial and corporate structure and somehow expect to get greater accountability out of it.

I know someone who works in the field of financial printing, and everything she's told me illustrates just the opposite.  She's involved with lots of SEC filings, and is very familiar with the big players in the financial meltdown - Bear Sterns, AIG, Merrill-Lynch etc.  She says SEC regs and transparency rules are getting more complex all the time - it's anything but unregulated.  She's worked in that field for thirty years, and this is the most heavily regulated it's ever been.

Perhaps every word of that it true. But how often and how well do the regulators at SEC actually look into corporate books unless there is an Enron or Ivan Boesky when they basically do so after-the-fact?

Otherwise they are busy trying to figure out all the arcane "securities" that package debt and sell it as "capital." Eh?

Nikki

[Margaret Ann]

Thank you, Margaret.

I don't disagree about that Supreme's ruling Margaret. But I also cast my eyes back to what, 1886, here In the landmark 1886 Supreme Court case Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific, a railroad company refused to pay a special county tax in California, arguing (much as sludge hauler Synagro would do in Pennsylvania more than a century later) that to treat it differently from everyone else violated its constitutional rights. Speaking from the bench, Chief Justice Morrison Waite announced, "The court does not wish to hear argument on the question whether the provision in the 14th Amendment...applies to these corporations. We are all of the opinion that it does." Cite and Cite where the Sc of the time basically granted individual privilege as an eternally alive person to a corporation.

That was not exactly what the ruling said although the justices were in agreement that they did consider that to be the case. It has dominated our corporate ideology since.

Nichole

Ah yes, the corporation as a person. That's got to be right up there with Bush v Gore at the pinnacle of judicial ideological bull->-bleeped-<- IMO. I am not a lawyer but you seem to be well versed in these things. (I'm not considered worthy of viewing your profile yet. ) Do you have a legal background if I may ask? You certainly write clearly.

Cheers, Margi

[NicholeW.]

No, I don't have a legal background -- I have a Lit background, as in undergrad. Perhaps the lack of the Legal background is why I write clearly. That and a lot of practice.

I think you'll become worthy;) when you reach 15 posts, Margi. Check HERE and be certain, please.

Thanks so much for the compliments. That was really sweet of you!

Nikki

[Margaret Ann]

No, I don't have a legal background -- I have a Lit background, as in undergrad. Perhaps the lack of the Legal background is why I write clearly. That and a lot of practice.

I think you'll become worthy;) when you reach 15 posts, Margi. Check HERE and be certain, please.

Thanks so much for the compliments. That was really sweet of you!

Nikki

Actually, I can see where such restrictions on newbies could help protect members of the forum and that's good IMO. It is a bit of a hassle though. (Imagine a "chagrined" emoticon here" - definitely not    )  Cheers

[tekla]

Santa Clara v. Southern Pacific

Ahh, my favorite hit by the Supremes.

[Dennis]

No, I don't have a legal background -- I have a Lit background, as in undergrad. Perhaps the lack of the Legal background is why I write clearly. That and a lot of practice.

*Dennis swats Nichole with a pillow*

[NicholeW.]

No, I don't have a legal background -- I have a Lit background, as in undergrad. Perhaps the lack of the Legal background is why I write clearly. That and a lot of practice.

*Dennis swats Nichole with a pillow*

OOPS!! Forgot about the supervisor's real job. Except for you, Dennis!!  *picks up a pillow herself and hits back*

Nichole

[RebeccaFog]

Has American Society Gone Insane?

only the flabheads who vote republican.

[Kaitlyn]

Has American Society Gone Insane?

only the flabheads who vote republican.

Even a conservative would have to be insane to vote Republican.  With third parties locked out of the system, the Democrats embody what little political sanity is left in this nation.

[tekla]

Democrats embody what little political sanity is left in this nation

Sadly, its very little, which makes it hard for people who don't really follow this - after all, American Idol, or Dancing with the Stars was on - to make any kind of informed choice. 

[debbie j]

Democrats embody what little political sanity is left in this nation

Sadly, its very little, which makes it hard for people who don't really follow this - after all, American Idol, or Dancing with the Stars was on - to make any kind of informed choice. 

better off watching howdy duity 

[NicholeW.]

The problem is too many Americans ARE Howdy-Doody. Heads of wood and someone else doing their talking for them. *sigh*

Better turn off the tube altogether.

Nikki

[RebeccaFog]

if I turn the tube off, I won't be able to see Gary Sinise hold a pair of squished eyeballs in his hands.