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Androgynes and Cissexual Privilege

Started by Nero, October 18, 2008, 08:18:58 AM

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Eva Marie

I'm guilty of this as well. I'll start out thinking about something and within a few minutes i've free associated miles away from where I started.
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Constance

Quote from: riven_one on November 13, 2008, 08:58:33 AM
I'm guilty of this as well. I'll start out thinking about something and within a few minutes i've free associated miles away from where I started.
Ha! It's confirmed: threadjacking is part of the Androgyne/Cissexual Privilege!   ;)

Pica Pica

Quote from: Rebis on November 13, 2008, 07:40:06 AM
Well you're certainly not going to gain any good habits by associating with us.

The same happens to me. Plus, nothing is concrete. When I say I'm going to do something, I mean I'm going to do it any time between now and infinity. I really know I'll do it, but won't until some arbitrary moment.

My roommate gets angry about it a lot.


my parents hate me doing that, and saying i will do something is a promise as well, i will do it, just don't know when.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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RebeccaFog


I'm always like, "what's your problem? I have it in my mind."
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Chris B.

I wish that I had been able to post this while Nero was still part of the conversation, and making rude comments.  I find that there is very little male privilege, or cissexual privilege, when you may be seen as a male, but you are none the less seen as a "cissy".
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Lokaeign

I hear that quite a lot from the male-bodied androgynes on this board.  I think it says something quite interesting about male privilege. 

Male privilege certainly exists (for example, I don't know any cis guys who've been outright told "you're qualified for this job but you can't have it because you're the wrong gender," or had to put up with daily threats of violence including sexual violence for having the temerity to study a non-gender-appropriate subject, whereas I bloody well have), but it is not universaly accessable.  It can be reduced or revoked altogether for a variety of entirely spurious reasons, including being non-gender-conforming.  I think this underlines the fundamental irrationality of such privilege. 

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Chris B.

Lokaeign: 

Re "you're qualified for this job but you can't have it because you're the wrong gender,"   This usually comes out much more in the form of "you can't have the job because you do not meet my expectations of manhood", and of course the  form that this expression usually takes is highly euphemised.

Chris B. 
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Lokaeign

But that's not prejudice against you because you're a man.  It's prejudice against you because you're not gender-conforming to whatever mindlessly arbitrary standards the potential employer pulled out of their ear.

I have actually had potential employers turn me down saying  "You're well qualified for this job and I'd really like to take you on, but you're a woman so I can't."  No other factor at work, just "you're a woman so I'm not going to employ you." I've never, ever met a cis guy who's had an employer say that to him.  Cis men may certainly experience other forms of prejudice: you mention genderism, there's also ageism, ablism, classism, racism and all the other -isms.  But prejudice against one simply for being a man?  I'm sure it happens, but it's as rare as hens teeth.
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Chris B.

#88
And while I find that I do still have the (male) privilege of riding a bicycle thru highly ethnic parts of town , in the middle of the night, this has nothing to do with being accepted by my educational/professional colleagues.


Chris B.
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Chris B.

#89
And while I'm on the subject,(and oh yeah I'm a newbie), I would throw out the comment that in Genesis 5, God said that we are all (each and every one of us) created "Male and Female", S/He did NOT say Male OR Female.  Perhaps more on this later.

Lokaiegn:  When I was very young, I had one career, and no education.   I now have three educations, and no career.  When it doesn't work, I'm damned if I care WHY it doesn't work.

Chris B. 
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Nicky

Quote from: Chris B. on December 06, 2008, 08:58:22 AM
And while I'm on the subject,(and oh yeah I'm a newbie), I would throw out the comment that in Genesis 5, God said that we are all (each and every one of us) created "Male and Female", S/He did NOT say Male OR Female.  Perhaps more on this later.

Yeah, I would throw that comment out too. I don't think the bible should have influence on anything beyond what the wise Bill and Ted said "Be excellent to eachother"
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Lokaeign

Yeah, Bible not actually universally relevant to all.  What about us Tooth-Fairy Worshippers eh?

I've noticed that when the topic of privilege comes up (not just here, I mean everywhere generally) there's often a mad scramble to deny that one has it, or to frame suggestions that one might need to check one's privilege as an unwarrented attack.  Why is this?  I mean, we all know privilege exists, right--we can all point to the privileges we don't have easily enough, why is it such a stretch to recognise the ones we do?

Here are some of mine, in no particular order:

White privilege: this is a HUGE one  I've become more aware of it over the years.  Nobody questions my right to study "white" topics, to go into "white" spaces, to have a white partner or to worship in the faith of my choice, whereas I see my BME friends get that garbage all the time.  (Especially the last one.)  People of my ethnicity are well represented in positions of power and in the media.  Nobody yells ethnic slurs at me in the street.  I could go on.

Cis privilege:  This is a bit more of a vexed issue since you can't really call 3rdy "cis."  But I'd say that since I don't always present as 3rd I definately benefit from cis privilege most of the time.  I'm read as my natal gender by most people--nobody yells at me for going into the Ladies' loo, nobody accuses me of misleading them by presenting as the "wrong" gender, I don't suffer from employer discrimination based on transphobia, etc.  I'd actually like to jettison this one if I could, but right now I couldn't do so without invoking a whole slew of other privileges (such as having a partner who'll understand and support me if I can't get a job).

Straight privilege:  Again, bit of a sticky wicket because an androgyne is arguably not heterosexual unless ze only does other androgynes, and because I do experience powerful feelings of same sex attraction and even romantic love.  I have also been read as a lesbian or a gay man in the past and threatened with violence based on this.  But because I'm usually read as female and in a relationship with a cis guy, I'm percieved as straight and I enjoy straight privilege.  Nobody questions my right to be with my bloke, nobody harrasses or threatens me for going out with him, we can hold hands and snog in public without getting beaten up, etc.

Educational privilege:  This is another biggie that often goes unregarded.  Again, my access to this is not 100% clear-cut, since I was deschooled as a youngin and basically left to educate myself from the age of 11 onwards.  (Not my folks' fault--I was rather an uninspiring child to teach, being lazy, inattentive, and frankly a bit thick.  If I'd been a better kid I'm sure they'd have been keen to offer more input.)  But I did live in a house filled with books, have parents who read to me, and who let me stay in education until I left home at 18.  Plenty of people with far more potential than I ever demonstrated get hauled out of school and sent off to work at 16.  I even have some university education, although I didn't graduate (see a bit thick, above).

Able-bodied privilege:  Again not 100% on this one as I have epilepsy (now thankfully in abeyance), MDD, and a mild case of arthritis which sometimes affects mobility a little.  And I have in fact experienced ablist discrimination, being refused jobs I could do standing on my head on the grounds of my epilepsy*.  But I "pass" as ab, don't have to worry about access to transport or public places, don't have to fight tooth and nail to get my basic needs met, etc.  I've also had some people with other psych diagnoses argue that people with my diagnosis are privileged relative to them, which seems like a reasonable assertion.

I'm sure I could think of a lot more, but that's quite enough to be going on with!





*One potential employer asserted that she didn't have to hire "disableds" because "you're fire hazards."  Apparently being epileptic makes you a "fire hazard," because, er, you might have a fit during a fire, and people might trip over you running away from the fire.  Arguably the chance to work for a complete bigot is no great loss, however.
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Lokaeign on December 09, 2008, 12:01:08 PM
Straight privilege:  Again, bit of a sticky wicket because an androgyne is arguably not heterosexual unless ze only does other androgynes, and because I do experience powerful feelings of same sex attraction and even romantic love.  I have also been read as a lesbian or a gay man in the past and threatened with violence based on this.  But because I'm usually read as female and in a relationship with a cis guy, I'm percieved as straight and I enjoy straight privilege.  Nobody questions my right to be with my bloke, nobody harrasses or threatens me for going out with him, we can hold hands and snog in public without getting beaten up, etc.
couldn't this be either way? We are heterosexual only if we're with another androgyne. But if you get naked with someone of your own 3rdness, isn't that homosexual too?

This could go on forever. Are we perverts if we get naked with cisgendered people? Or, are we perverts if we get together with each other?

I'm using the word 'pervert' tongue-in-cheek (which may be yet another perversion) as I am being playful with the questions I just asked even though I am also serious.

An androgyne trait = I'm serious, though I'm kidding.    :P
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Lokaeign

My mistake--I meant to put queer where I've written het.  Actually that whole paragraph is a bit all over the place.  My brane hurtz.
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Lokaeign

Actually I suppose to be flawlessly het I'd have to be doing a male-bodied androg... not, hang on, that doesn't work either.  It's all rather confusing.
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kitty

#95
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 06, 2008, 08:40:20 AM
But that's not prejudice against you because you're a man.  It's prejudice against you because you're not gender-conforming to whatever mindlessly arbitrary standards the potential employer pulled out of their ear.

I have actually had potential employers turn me down saying  "You're well qualified for this job and I'd really like to take you on, but you're a woman so I can't."  No other factor at work, just "you're a woman so I'm not going to employ you." I've never, ever met a cis guy who's had an employer say that to him.  Cis men may certainly experience other forms of prejudice: you mention genderism, there's also ageism, ablism, classism, racism and all the other -isms.  But prejudice against one simply for being a man?  I'm sure it happens, but it's as rare as hens teeth.

Last year my boss would not hire a man for a full time position he was only going to hire a female worker so it does happen, and he did hire a very under qualified female employee over a more qualified male one.  He never said it to the people he was interviewing as that would be stupid.

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Constance

Quote from: KatherineOM on December 10, 2008, 04:26:35 AM
Quote from: Lokaeign on December 06, 2008, 08:40:20 AM
But that's not prejudice against you because you're a man.  It's prejudice against you because you're not gender-conforming to whatever mindlessly arbitrary standards the potential employer pulled out of their ear.

I have actually had potential employers turn me down saying  "You're well qualified for this job and I'd really like to take you on, but you're a woman so I can't."  No other factor at work, just "you're a woman so I'm not going to employ you." I've never, ever met a cis guy who's had an employer say that to him.  Cis men may certainly experience other forms of prejudice: you mention genderism, there's also ageism, ablism, classism, racism and all the other -isms.  But prejudice against one simply for being a man?  I'm sure it happens, but it's as rare as hens teeth.

Last year my boss would not hire a man for a full time position he was only going to hire a female worker so it does happen, and he did hire a very overqualified female employee over a more qualified male one.  He never said it to the people he was interviewing as that would be stupid.
The day-care center we used to bring our kids to would only hire men for the custodian/janitor positions. All care givers were female. That was the official policy.

RebeccaFog

Quote from: Lokaeign on December 10, 2008, 04:09:29 AM
Actually I suppose to be flawlessly het I'd have to be doing a male-bodied androg... not, hang on, that doesn't work either.  It's all rather confusing.

I know. Maybe we're a special kind of queer - HeteroQueer or homohetero.

Maybe we shouldn't go near prefixes such as hetero or homo.  Great. Another place where we don't fit.
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tekla

If you read academic hiring postings you see the words "Females and other qualified minorities are encouraged to apply" which is academic double speak for "we're not going to hire a white guy, so don't waste your time."
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Jaimey

Quote from: tekla on December 10, 2008, 10:26:15 AM
If you read academic hiring postings you see the words "Females and other qualified minorities are encouraged to apply" which is academic double speak for "we're not going to hire a white guy, so don't waste your time."

It always strikes me as odd to include females in 'minorities' since (at least in the US...well, probably most fully industrialized countries) there are more females than males...generally.  Demographics are fun!!! (somebody's a geography nerd...)
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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