gender identity. I don't understand

[Saraloop]

 Hi.
  I am seeking wisdom

I don't understand gender identity and why people claim to feel like one gender or the other.  I understand that society raises a child differently based on their biological gender. but don't understand why. It seems like society has developed the notion that one 'gender' is associated to one type of behavior and dress code.
I sometimes hear people say, I 'feel' like a girl, or 'feel' like a boy, but that makes no sense to me.. You can't 'feel' like a gender.. a gender is just an assortment of behavior and dress code, from what I can tell. Just on behaving terms, how or why would someone want to behave just in one of those categories(gender)? why is it ,first of all, associated to biological attributes, and why, secondly, do 'transgenders' want to be considered as someone who behaves and dresses like the category that is associated to the other/opposite biological gender ?  If you feel like behaving a certain way... why not just behave or dress any way you want without associating yourself to an invented category(male/female)?

In other words, why would you limit yourself to being one gender or the other? I don't believe humans are bound to a certain set of behavior. Saying you were born with the other set of behavior sounds even weirder to me.

So, let's discuss your opinions, I'm really curious to understand better.

[TamTam]

It's hard for someone who's perfectly fine in their bodies to understand what it's like for someone who isn't.  I'm not trans, so I'll try to make this short, I don't want to presume upon anybody.. but the way I understand it is.. for transpeople, it's not just about behaving a certain way.. because you're right, behavior is entirely invented and not based on any 'substantial' difference between the genders... and it's not based on a dress code.. it's body disphoria.  Which means that you feel like your body isn't yours, isn't the way it's supposed to be.  Imagine if you woke up tomorrow in the body of the opposite gender.. wouldn't it bother you?  Wouldn't it feel wrong, somehow?  Or maybe it wouldn't.. but everyone's different, and for many people, that would be bothersome.  And imagine having to grow up like that, always feeling like your body isn't right, that it should look and feel like something else.  Like the other gender.

People get depressed over it, commit suicide over it.. so whatever the cause is, it's obviously real.

[tekla]

If you feel like behaving a certain way... why not just behave or dress any way you want without associating yourself to an invented category(male/female)?

Many do choose this option and feel fine in it and have a good life with that realization.  Others are more prone to try to fit in with what they have been taught.  Still others do feel a disassociation and must correct it.

There are a lot of paths through these woods, no one way is right, or wrong.

[Sephirah]

It's not just a case of a gender being limited to a set of codes or a certain style of dressing or acting. There's a whole spectrum of experience and desire when it comes to transgendered individuals.

The following is just how I see it, relating to my own thoughts and feelings.

I sometimes hear people say, I 'feel' like a girl, or 'feel' like a boy, but that makes no sense to me.. You can't 'feel' like a gender.. a gender is just an assortment of behavior and dress code, from what I can tell.

Well not really, on some level it encompasses the physical attributes associated with the biological sex, too. If you're female then you don't just want to act female and dress female... you want to be female, as much as you possibly can. And for a lot of people that process goes from hormone therapy all the way through to Gender Reassignment Surgery in order to attain the physiological attributes they feel they should have been born with from the outset. It's not about looking like a woman or acting like a woman... it's the whole package.

Just on behaving terms, how or why would someone want to behave just in one of those categories(gender)?

Because that's who a lot of people are. I don't believe transgendered people are above the gender distinction. Speaking personally, I am not a different species of human, or more evolved or something. I don't transcend gender. I still feel like I am one gender, just the opposite one to the one I was born in.

Androgyne people may feel differently to this, however I don't presume to speak for them since I have no direct experience of their mindset with which to comment, so I'll leave that to the people of the forum who identify thus.

why is it ,first of all, associated to biological attributes, and why, secondly, do 'transgenders' want to be considered as someone who behaves and dresses like the category that is associated to the other/opposite biological gender ?  If you feel like behaving a certain way... why not just behave or dress any way you want without associating yourself to an invented category(male/female)?

Again, I don't believe that's all there is to it. It's not just behaving a certain way or dressing a certain way.

I could put on a squirrel costume and run around in the forest... it wouldn't make me a squirrel.

Likewise, the male body I'm forced to deal with at the moment... I can dress female and act female... but the absolute most that would equate to, in my opinion, would be a female trapped inside a male who's trying to act female. That's not enough. I don't want to act any way. I want to be female... or as close as is physically possible. Because that's who I am.

In other words, why would you limit yourself to being one gender or the other? I don't believe humans are bound to a certain set of behavior. Saying you were born with the other set of behavior sounds even weirder to me.

So, let's discuss your opinions, I'm really curious to understand better.

As I said before, Transgendered people, at least speaking for myself personally... I don't transcend gender, I'm not in some vacuum looking at the concept from somewhere outside it. I want to limit myself to being one gender because I believe and feel I am one gender. And my mind, heart and soul is also one gender... unfortunately it's the opposite gender to the one I physically exhibit at the moment, but that can be changed. And after that, I will be perfectly happy just being one gender, the right one.

[Saraloop]

Thanks for the replies.
So, the issue is that you have a kind of feeling or notion that you're not in the right body, and the desire to be in the opposite (but still human) kind?  How does that feel like? I'm not able to fathom how that would be...  because I can't detect a hint of feeling 'right' or 'wrong' as I am. I am a consciousness who happens to inhabit a human body, and I couldnt care less whether it was designed one way or another; the reality is that this is the body that I have, and I don't feel it linked to any kind of 'feeling' of being a gender. I look how I look, and I act how I want to act... though it does bring consequences.

eeh, although I think like that, I still don't act out alot since I don't like attracting much attention.

If you're female then you don't just want to act female and dress female... you want to be female, as much as you possibly can

How can you 'be' female?  aren't you yourself?  Even though I'm physically human, I don't think like I 'am' human and want to be as human as I can. My consciousness is not a physical being. and it's also my consciousness that desires and wants to do stuff, so, for me anyway, it's like I have to limit my true self if I limit myself to 'female' or 'male' role / behavior or even human behavior... yet I do, since I live in a society that wants everyone to act how they look like.

Speaking personally, I am not a different species of human, or more evolved or something. I don't transcend gender. I still feel like I am one gender, just the opposite one to the one I was born in.

I have trouble understanding that. So I'm 'supposed' to 'feel' like my body? ...??dont understand. what link is there between the two? desire? I desire to be alot of things, but that's not what I am...
I dunno. maybe I just think too differently to understand it.. but discussing it is still fun.

I could put on a squirrel costume and run around in the forest... it wouldn't make me a squirrel.

No but it'd be fun   I know Ive wanted to be a cat alot

[trapthavok]

I don't claim to speak for the entire transgendered community in all of this, so here's my two cents.

Thanks for the replies.
So, the issue is that you have a kind of feeling or notion that you're not in the right body, and the desire to be in the opposite (but still human) kind?  How does that feel like? I'm not able to fathom how that would be...  because I can't detect a hint of feeling 'right' or 'wrong' as I am. I am a consciousness who happens to inhabit a human body, and I couldnt care less whether it was designed one way or another; the reality is that this is the body that I have, and I don't feel it linked to any kind of 'feeling' of being a gender. I look how I look, and I act how I want to act... though it does bring consequences.

eeh, although I think like that, I still don't act out alot since I don't like attracting much attention.

I care. I care a lot about my body. Because it's not the way it's supposed to be. I currently "dress male, behave male and respond  to a 'male' name" but that is not enough for me. It does not fix what's wrong with me. I know that beneath my baggy jeans and loose shirts my body is still female in the most biological sense.

So you want to know how it feels?

I started my period thursday night and I nearly cried. I nearly cried because it's too much for me to handle. I don't like that I can dress and behave a certain way and my body will still go on doing things I don't want it to do, that it shouldn't do. It still has a mind of it's own. I nearly cried because menstruation is disgusting, it's painful for me, and it makes me sick to my stomach that my body does it. I nearly cried because up until I saw this month's first red dot, I was a boy. And this was my body's sick way of telling me, "haha no you're not!! remember me?!  I'll be back next month too!"  Why does my body menstruate? I don't want any of the benefits of menstruation. I don't plan on squeezing a baby out of that hole ANY TIME during my life time, and I CERTAINLY don't want anything going in it. So why does my body continue to ovulate, to send eggs down into my uterus in the hopes that one day I will procreate? I'm sorry but it's not happening. So why won't it stop???

Then there's other types of depression. Breast depression. I wear a binder every day because I want my chest to be flat, wish it were flat, wish it were more masculine, but it's not. Two lumps peek out under my clothes everyday, and long have I run from the mirror when naked because I couldn't handle seeing them there. They're not supposed to be there!! At first I felt like a pervert. I'm not a peeping tom, I don't go around looking at naked women stepping out of their showers, and here was one right in my mirror! I respect women to the utmost degree and this was a downright violation of some woman's privacy, and I'd glance away, ashamed, until I realized my head was on that woman's body.

But it only got worse. It went from shame and embarrassment to downright nausea. Those things on my chest make me want to throw up now because they're not mine and someone put them there as a sick joke. I can't wait til the day I can get them surgically altered to like how they are supposed to.

But it doesn't stop there.


Have I answered your question in the slightest? This is just the tip of the iceberg for me so I can always add more later.

I agree with Leiandra too,

I don't believe transgendered people are above the gender distinction. Speaking personally, I am not a different species of human, or more evolved or something. I don't transcend gender. I still feel like I am one gender, just the opposite one to the one I was born in.

I don't transcend gender in any way shape or form, and often times I feel like I am stereotyping it because I'm just behaving the way I believe a man should behave, or because I enjoy certain things that are more commonly attributed to the male gender. I in no way shape or form think I am better than anyone in these gender stereotypes, in fact I'm probably worse, but they are part of who I am and what I like doing. (Example: I love yardwork, lawn  mowing, making things with my hands, hate doing dishes, household chores...) But sometimes I do break the mold (I love cooking!!! I love musicals! And I am sensitive enough to understand how hard it is being a woman!) so I'm not as bad as I could have turned out.

[Sephirah]

Thanks for the replies.
So, the issue is that you have a kind of feeling or notion that you're not in the right body, and the desire to be in the opposite (but still human) kind?

It's not a notion. It's... a certainty. A knowledge that colours every aspect of your life. It's like... you're wearing a costume 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. You can't take it off yet you know it's not who you are. Think about going to a fancy dress party and being unable to remove the facade. People see the costume, the anatomy, the stature, and treat you as though that's who you are.

But inside there's your voice screaming "No! This is wrong! You can't see me!" Every time you look in a mirror you try to see behind your eyes, behind the face and the body staring back at you, to try and find the person who you see when you close your eyes and dream, when you visualise yourself in your mind's eye... which looks so different to what you're faced with every day that often you don't even recognise your own reflection; and when faced with the reality of that reflection you feel a crushing sense of despair and of being lost within your own persona, trying to claw your way out.

  How does that feel like? I'm not able to fathom how that would be...  because I can't detect a hint of feeling 'right' or 'wrong' as I am. I am a consciousness who happens to inhabit a human body, and I couldnt care less whether it was designed one way or another; the reality is that this is the body that I have, and I don't feel it linked to any kind of 'feeling' of being a gender. I look how I look, and I act how I want to act... though it does bring consequences.

Then you are more fortunate than a lot of people who don't have that luxury.

How can you 'be' female?  aren't you yourself?

By having the right body to match my thought patterns and being able to express myself completely comfortably within my own skin. That's how.

Am I myself? Internally yes, externally... no. It's that simple, in my opinion. And it's taken a lot of soul searching and self analysis to reach that conclusion. And this is only my conclusion, I do not expect it to be anyone else's. I can be female by having female anatomy (or as close an approximation as is possible with current medical technology and procedures). I can be female by being able to look in the mirror and see the person reflected back physcally that is also reflected in the mirror of my subconscious. When that happens, I will be myself internally and externally.

For me, that is my desire. Female genitalia, female body shape (again, as close as possible), the correct anatomy to be able to integrate into the world as a woman and to be able to feel comfortable and complete in doing so.

As things currently stand, I am female but I cannot go about being female until my physiology matches my psychology.

Think of it in terms of a computer. My body is the catalyst for me to integrate and identify with those around me. It's the platform for me to express my psyche and channel my desires, hopes and intent through and provides the hardline connection to the internet of life. At the moment, my external hardware is incompatible with the internal software trying to run on it. It's like trying to run Windows on an Apple Mac PC.

  Even though I'm physically human, I don't think like I 'am' human and want to be as human as I can. My consciousness is not a physical being. and it's also my consciousness that desires and wants to do stuff, so, for me anyway, it's like I have to limit my true self if I limit myself to 'female' or 'male' role / behavior or even human behavior... yet I do, since I live in a society that wants everyone to act how they look like.

So how do you quantify your consciousness? Such a nebulous abstract must have some basis in physical reality. What's yours?

I have trouble understanding that. So I'm 'supposed' to 'feel' like my body? ...??dont understand. what link is there between the two? desire? I desire to be alot of things, but that's not what I am...
I dunno. maybe I just think too differently to understand it.. but discussing it is still fun.

You're not 'supposed' to feel anything. If you don't then you don't, but that doesn't mean that no one does. Individuals are all different, with different perceptions and different viewpoints.

The link between the two is... that, in my opinion, whilst existing in a 4-dimensional plane of reality, one cannot exist without the other. They are inevitably bound together and one affects the other. Instability and disharmony in one will impact on the other.

[Saraloop]

I care. I care a lot about my body. Because it's not the way it's supposed to be. I currently "dress male, behave male and respond  to a 'male' name" but that is not enough for me. It does not fix what's wrong with me. I know that beneath my baggy jeans and loose shirts my body is still female in the most biological sense.

hmm.. Why is it 'supposed' to be that way? I think that's the big part I have trouble with..
but.. seems like alot of heartache. I could see why someone would want to do everything possible to feel more comfortable with themselves.

This might not be a wanted opinion but.. In a similar fashion, I'm sure there's 'normal' girls out there who have 'ugly' bodies and feel they should have a 'beautiful' one and probably cry all the time in front of the mirror wishing they had one, and feeling like it's supposed to be like they wish... But in a way, that seems like it's a form of denial...  if you can't accept what you are, then all it'll bring you is pain. I'm not saying you shouldn't act or dress how you like, but to accept the things that you can't change.
I recall multiple times feeling inadequate by my physical appearance or desiring it to be something else, but I've never thought that it 'should' be the way I want it to be.. because that's being unrealistic.

However, the human mind is quite complex and It's probably possible for it to feel like something is not as it should.
Reading what you wrote, it seems like you really are determined that something is wrong. But I'm wondering..  Do you desire to be what you have in mind so much that you find it's just not fair for things to have turned out otherwise?

Sorry if I'm a bit insensitive, I dont want to sound like im underestimating the issue. I've had alot of depressin problems myself in life but not as much as you regarding the physical body.

[Arch]

Hi, Saraloop. Thanks for writing.

I have always felt like I was frozen at the age of thirteen because I was fourteen when I started really developing noticeably female attributes. I have always felt like a boy who never grew up. A Peter Pan, if you will, but not a willing one.

Living in this female body and being perceived as female by the world has been so painful for me, so wrong, that I have spent a huge portion of my life living in a fantasy world in which I am gay and male. In recent years, I have almost completely shut myself off from other people and spent more and more time inside my head. That's the only way I could survive and stay sane. I'm naturally somewhat hermitish, but I've taken that natural tendency and distorted it out of all proportion. I never even wanted to leave the house. I just felt worse and worse about myself. Now that I'm taking positive steps toward transition, I'm coming out of my shell a bit. I still hate my body, but I'm feeling better about my SELF.

I am well aware that social responses to my gender presentation have a lot to do with why I want to transition and change my body. This phenomenon--my response to other people's responses--sometimes drives me nuts and gives me nagging doubts about who and what I really am. But I do not live in a vacuum. I have to make my way in the world. The only way I know to do that and to stop the wrongness of it all is to transition.

Imagine this. Let's say that you're an American. Everywhere you go, people see you as a Spaniard. All of their responses to you are colored by this perception. Instead of saying "hello," they say "hola" in an attempt to be friendly. They ask about the best flamenco music and want to feed you paella all the time when you just want a hamburger. They're always saying things like, "What do you, as a Spaniard, think of this issue?" and "What do you Spaniards think of the Basque situation?" and "Your king is a cool guy, but we Americans have a president" and even, "Hey, Spaniard, you're in the wrong bathroom!!"

That just might start to drive you crazy. If the Spaniard scenario doesn't work for you and give you a taste for how things are for a lot of transsexual people, try race or color or even occupation.

Others on this thread have done a better job of explaining than I have, but I felt compelled to add my two cents' worth (a buck fifty with inflation).

[jenny_]

How can you 'be' female?  aren't you yourself?  Even though I'm physically human, I don't think like I 'am' human and want to be as human as I can. My consciousness is not a physical being. and it's also my consciousness that desires and wants to do stuff, so, for me anyway, it's like I have to limit my true self if I limit myself to 'female' or 'male' role / behavior or even human behavior... yet I do, since I live in a society that wants everyone to act how they look like.

I am myself, that self just happens to be female.  Gender identity is a difficult concept to understand or explain, it just exists.  I think that all of humanity experiences it, even if not aware of it on a concious level.  Having it conflict with your external body though, does make you realise that even if you don't understand it, its wrong.  Having said that i can't describe any feeling within me that is "female".  I just am.

I think you can see it in young children.  They know that they are a boy or a girl from a young age without needing it explained.  They know who has is the same gender as them and those who are different.  Part of this is probably down to society, but it still seems to exist the same despite a wide range of upbringings.  Parents can bring up their children the same treating the sexes equally, yet the boys still end up being boys and the girls end up being girls.

And also i don't think we limit ourselves by saying we are female or male.  Gender identity its the same as gender role.  The female/male role comes largely from society and transgender people don't conform to it any more or less than cisgender people. 

[Sephirah]

This might not be a wanted opinion but.. In a similar fashion, I'm sure there's 'normal' girls out there who have 'ugly' bodies and feel they should have a 'beautiful' one and probably cry all the time in front of the mirror wishing they had one, and feeling like it's supposed to be like they wish... But in a way, that seems like it's a form of denial...  if you can't accept what you are, then all it'll bring you is pain. I'm not saying you shouldn't act or dress how you like, but to accept the things that you can't change.
I recall multiple times feeling inadequate by my physical appearance or desiring it to be something else, but I've never thought that it 'should' be the way I want it to be.. because that's being unrealistic.

That's completely different. Those girls don't feel like any less girls because they don't have have the level of subjective beauty they desire, they don't consider themselves to be any less female. And they feel comfortable with the fact that they are female, and just want to be the ultimate embodiment of who they already are.

It's not about being beautiful or ugly. Heck, I will likely end up being the Bride of Frankenstein when I'm done, but I will be female... and that's all I want. I already have accepted who I am, and that's why I, and everyone else here, is doing this... exactly because of that.

And my external physiology can be changed. That's the whole point. What I can't change is who I am inside, and I have no intention of doing so. Nor am I denying anything.

[Sarah Dreams]

Let us not forget that gender differences have been scientifically proven to originate in the brain. Yes, the specific behaviors associated with male and female are by and large taught and invented by society, but without physical and psycological gender differences in the first place, these sociological differences would never have arisen.

Women are wired in the brain differently than men and visa versa. They are two equal entities with different traits. Society is the influence which shows preference for one over the other. But that does not negate the fact that the genders are intrinsically different. Therefore, the feeling of being a woman is born in the brain (and some would say the spirit, or soul, but that is a philosophical discussion for another time) and is expressed using whatever norms are in place in the transgendered person's society.

Love, Sarah

[tinkerbell]

Hello Saraloop and welcome to Susan's! why don't you do us all a huge favor and introduce yourself here so that we can get to know you a little bit better?

tink

[jenny_]

This might not be a wanted opinion but.. In a similar fashion, I'm sure there's 'normal' girls out there who have 'ugly' bodies and feel they should have a 'beautiful' one and probably cry all the time in front of the mirror wishing they had one, and feeling like it's supposed to be like they wish... But in a way, that seems like it's a form of denial...  if you can't accept what you are, then all it'll bring you is pain. I'm not saying you shouldn't act or dress how you like, but to accept the things that you can't change.
I recall multiple times feeling inadequate by my physical appearance or desiring it to be something else, but I've never thought that it 'should' be the way I want it to be.. because that's being unrealistic.

There is also many transgender girls (and boys) who believe that they have ugly bodies, and can hate parts of their bodies in just the same way that cisgender ("normal") girls.  But from my experience it is completely different to gender dysphoria.  The difference is that you can believe and accept your "ugly" bits.  You can learn to love yourself and will feel better about your body, but that can never cure the gender dysphoria. 

There are parts of my body that i hate because i'm gender dysphoric, but others parts i hate as in the situation you describe.  And those parts of my body that i don't like for non-gender dysphoric reasons i have grown to accept and even (sometimes!) like.

The difference is that with gender dysphoria, if you can convince yourself and belief that your physical body is ok, and your feelings of wrongness aren't real, then it does lead to suicide in some people.

Its difficult to understand why it is different, but its just not possible to accept your body if you're transgender, and lead anything resembling a healthy existance.  It eventually comes out

[Saraloop]

Thank you all for all you opinions. Especially Leiandra because you made me realize just how much I'm on another plane of thought compared to the transgendered.
I think I'm starting to understand it a bit more..  but it really seems like you have to be one to understand correctly huh?

The reason why I can't relate is because I've always felt that male and female identity and role were just classifications made up by society, and not something you 'felt' like, which I still have trouble grasping... but I don't believe that men and women are wired that differently.. the only difference  that I think makes a difference in the way each think is the hormones affecting the brain. 

...

So how do you quantify your consciousness? Such a nebulous abstract must have some basis in physical reality. What's yours?

I think I see no link between my consciousness,which is me, and my physical body... like if this body is just a pile of meat that I'm using as a host for my consciousness. I'm controlling this body, but I don't feel it's 'me' in anyway.
Care to explain a bit more the quantifying you're talking about?

But inside there's your voice screaming "No! This is wrong! You can't see me!" Every time you look in a mirror you try to see behind your eyes, behind the face and the body staring back at you, to try and find the person who you see when you close your eyes and dream, when you visualise yourself in your mind's eye... which looks so different to what you're faced with every day that often you don't even recognise your own reflection; and when faced with the reality of that reflection you feel a crushing sense of despair and of being lost within your own persona, trying to claw your way out.

This I can relate alot to,  I've discussed something similar with friends alot, though it wasn't associated to gender. The truth is that people will NEVER see you as you truly are.. it's just impossible, ... but I can see how you might want to express yourself for how you truly see yourself to help along other people to see you that way too...  For me Ive stopped caring about what other people see me as... Mostly.
So, your body would be an expression of who you see yourself in your mind then? that makes sense, ... but for me, the way I see myself as inside is impossible to represent... and it has nothing to do with gender... so I dunno, why can't we transcend gender again?

this is quite confusing..  but interesting

[Sarah Dreams]

Belief is not involved in scientific fact. it either is or it is not. And multiple experiments have proven that there are physical differences between male and femal brains.

but I don't believe that men and women are wired that differently.. the only difference  that I think makes a difference in the way each think is the hormones affecting the brain.

Exactly. And the effect hormones play in the womb are to set up the brain's wiring thereby making for physical differences between male and female. The interesting thing is that testosterone plays a major role in wiring a female brain in the womb. After birth, estrogen takes over the role of continuing the changes in the brain. In fact (again, scientific, empirical fact), the brain does not stop maturing and changing until the person is in their mid- to late-twenties, thereby widening the physical gap between the genders.

If you'd like, I can provide you with references to these studies.

[kephalopod]

Sarahloops, here's my take on it.

In some ways, my views on gender are similar to yours, in that I believe the vast majority of gender-specific behavior to be learned rather than innate. Even given the structural differences between male and female brains, I think that it's likely that these are statistical realities, rather than absolute ones. (Some people on this board will disagree with me here. I'm not looking to get into an argument. To each their own.) There will be some women who identify as women whose brains are not strongly "typed" as female, and some men who identify as men whose brains are not strongly "typed" male, just as there are some women whose skeletal structure is androgynous and some men whose skeletal structure is androgynous. To give a terrible MS Paint version of my views on gender:



There's a bell curve for "feminine" behavior and a bell curve for "masculine" behavior. They overlap substantially, and there are outliers for each at the far ends of the image. I take gender to be relative, rather than absolute. If I read you right, this agrees pretty well with your views.

Having said all that, here's where I'm coming from:

In any social situation, I'm happier being treated as a guy. In any romantic situation, I'm happier being treated as a guy. In my head, I'm happier thinking of myself as a guy. When I look in the mirror, the more I look like a dude, the more I like the way I look. (And, in fact, as others have mentioned, there are days when I can't stand to look down.)

I've tried to compromise. I've been the most radically feminist, tomboy girl you've ever seen. But it still doesn't make me as happy as just being a boy. I don't know if it's a genetic thing, or a brain structure or chemistry thing, or just a purely psychological thing, and to be honest, I don't really care.

I figure, I can either go through the rest of my life cringing when people call me "ma'am," or I can do something about it.

[Sandy]

Hi Saraloop, welcome to Susan's!

Take some time to look around and take a look at our site rules and things.

I've had this discussion with others who also could not fathom why I needed to change my gender.

First off, you are right.  You cannot truly understand this condition if you don't have it.  It is like trying to explain the color orange to someone who has been blind all their life.

The SEX in transsexual seems to put people off, so I try to defuse the issue by not referring to sex or gender:

What if you woke up tomorrow and you were an aardvark.  You looked like an aardvark, you smelled like an aardvark, and all the other aardvarks said you were an aardvark!

But you would know differently wouldn't you?  You knew that inside you were a human being, not an aardvark.  You would have an unquenchable need to try and become human again.  Not to be covered in fur, to walk upright, to see things the way a human saw again.  And no matter how you explained it to other aardvarks they would still see you as an aardvark and wonder why in the world you would ever want to be anything else.

That is an inkling of what transsexuals have to endure.   We endure this all our lives.  What follows is depression, sometimes drug and alcohol abuse, and aberrant personality disorders.  In order to get along in society many of use try to act the role our bodys have shackled us with.  Eventually the depression becomes clinical and not unusually, suicidal ideation and  many times suicide attempts occur.  Often times the attempts are successful.  I believe that the condition is fatal without treatment.

The only known treatment for the condition is gender transition.  This treatment is over 95% effective.  Virtually every transsexual (yours truly included) has successfully overcome their depression and suicidal tendencies when they have transitioned.

Unlike crossdressers, this is not about clothing though that is a component.   It is about fulfilling the role of our chosen gender in society.  Of being accepted in that role.  (I really am not saying crossdressers are somehow inferior to transsexuals.  Just that we have different needs.)   And as others have said, most of us believe that it is society that follows the way human brains are wired, not the other way around.  Society does not dictate gender roles.  Rather gender roles in society have evolved from the basic difference in the male and female brains.

I ramble a bit and I apologize if I have beaten the dead horse, but I just wanted to give my point of view on the subject.

-Sandy

[Saraloop]

kephalopod, I'm not sure I fully understand your illustration, but it's true that everyone has ways they prefer to be treated by society. Seems like the solution most of you came up with is to physically alter yourself to entice others to treat you differently.. completely different from my approach I guess..

What if you woke up tomorrow and you were an aardvark.  You looked like an aardvark, you smelled like an aardvark, and all the other aardvarks said you were an aardvark!

But you would know differently wouldn't you?  You knew that inside you were a human being, not an aardvark.  You would have an unquenchable need to try and become human again.  Not to be covered in fur, to walk upright, to see things the way a human saw again.  And no matter how you explained it to other aardvarks they would still see you as an aardvark and wonder why in the world you would ever want to be anything else.

...

 And as others have said, most of us believe that it is society that follows the way human brains are wired, not the other way around.  Society does not dictate gender roles.  Rather gender roles in society have evolved from the basic difference in the male and female brains.

I ramble a bit and I apologize if I have beaten the dead horse, but I just wanted to give my point of view on the subject.

-Sandy

ok. I understand your point about the aardvark, it's similar to another one... I can relate slightly to it but... it's really weird because when you're born you didn't experience a past life as the opposite gender so why would you feel like you're in the wrong end? Then again, if you believe in reincarnation maybe you were the opposite gender in your past life ?

Thanks for explaining you're way of seeing the brain wiring. I can see how seeing it that way could affect the matter... but, the problem is, look at history and it will contradict that notion; Culture and gender roles/behavior has changed every generation differently in different nations. The Romans during significant periods had extremely effeminate men, and most of them were bisexual; to them it was natural.
I've noticed first hand how society affects people's minds; I've been a victim of it myself, so there's no way I can fool myself into thinking that society has developed in a way being the product of the way our brains are wired. ..Science studies have proven nothing, only coming out with theories.

Allow me to also rant a bit
If I'm in an aardvark body, then so be it if I can't change that. Why worry about that stuff when I can be making the best of whatever I have? If you want to try to shape things to be more like your desires, then do it by all means, but saying that you shouldn't have the body that you have? If you have it then obviously it happened; as far as I know, things that shouldn't happen, don't; if they do, then that means there was the possibility of it happening. To not accept the reality of things is denial..
...eh,  rant over:P

I would be more comfortable in another body, but happiness is not restricted by gender identity..
I dunno, I can definitely relate to desiring to be a certain way, but gender identity is just weird... 

[TamTam]

Look up 'two-spirits.'  Even among the Native Americans, there were transsexuals.  Society's treatment of a person has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they feel at home in their body.  And why should one just lay back and try to 'make the most of it' if doing so would lead to misery and deep depression?  Why not physically alter the body?  After all, if it's 'just a body,' then no harm done if you change it to make it fit what you think it should be, right?  No harm done if it makes you far happier, right?

Again, this is not simply about gender roles and how people want to be treated.

This is all pretty subjective stuff, Saraloop.