WTF!!! You have a d--k??!!!

[one4me]

Your mentality is the same as the wifes who tried to defend why their husbands hit them or their children. Its not being a TS, its hanging out with violent scumbags thats the problem.

Do you feel it should be ok for you to lie to people whenever you feel like it and you should never be penalized for it. How would you like it if someone tricked you into having sex with them? You wouldnt like it would you? Well thats exactly what your doing when you lie to someone about who you are when it matters to them. No one likes being fooled no matter what the situation but obviously you think there should be some exception for you. And the word is WIVES not wifes. Now you shut up.

Posted on: November 17, 2008, 07:18:26 pm

I'm down with the honesty deal, the best surprise is no surprise.

finally someone gets the point! That is the bottom line here. Just be honest with yourselves and others about who you are. I am not in anyway supporting the guys who were abusive because that is unexceptable in any case. SO IS LYING TO PEOPLE! So yes, I do agree with the bloggers point that honesty is the best policy with it comes to situation like this for your OWN safety. And if you feel that is should be ok for you to deceive people then you are going to get yourself into a world of trouble one day.

[whatsername]

How would you like it if someone tricked you into having sex with them? You wouldnt like it would you? Well thats exactly what your doing when you lie to someone about who you are when it matters to them.

I think it's a bit more complex than that, personally.

We have a situation where say, a transsexual (or intersexed) woman who has not had bottom surgery and is getting sexually involved with a cissexual man.

The woman is presenting as a woman because she in fact, is a woman.

If she still has a penis in some form that doesn't make her a liar for presenting that way.  The cissexual man assumed this woman wouldn't have a penis, but if he got involved with a cissexual woman who had a hysterectomy he would assume she had a uterus too.  Her not telling him so doesn't make her a liar.

The issue in any of these types of cases is with the MAN involved.  He is reacting to his assumptions being incorrect.

Now, there are two ways to react, if he is not attracted to women with intersex or transsexual histories, he can say "I'm sorry, I assumed you were cissexual and this doesn't work for me" and go on his merry way (I will refrain from getting into the latent unaddressed issues I believe such men have with their own sexualities) or a variation along the lines of "I'm sorry, I not sexually attracted to people with a penis", OR he can go all irrationally rageful as in the case originally brought up and beat or kill this woman for, well, whatever exactly is going on in his head at the time, it sure seems like what they really get angry about are those latent issues I mentioned earlier, like somehow being attracted to someone with an intersex or male history makes you GAY OMG.

My point is, the issue really, really, never lies with the T or I person.  Yes there is baggage that comes along with ones sexuality and gender.  Some guy might see my hairy legs and get instantly turned off, fine he's not my type, we make these kinds of negotiations in establishing relationships constantly.  But if I jump into bed with some guy and he discovers a much loathed hairy bush, he's not going to kill me for it.  Why?  Because it's understood that a part of dating is dealing with the fact that not everything one assumes about another person is going to be true.  And there is simply no justification for reacting to that discovery in the way of the original story, none.

[one4me]

How would you like it if someone tricked you into having sex with them? You wouldnt like it would you? Well thats exactly what your doing when you lie to someone about who you are when it matters to them.

The woman is presenting as a woman because she in fact, is a woman.

If she still has a penis in some form that doesn't make her a liar for presenting that way.  The cissexual man assumed this woman wouldn't have a penis, but if he got involved with a cissexual woman who had a hysterectomy he would assume she had a uterus too.  Her not telling him so doesn't make her a liar.

The issue in any of these types of cases is with the MAN involved.  He is reacting to his assumptions being incorrect.

Now, there are two ways to react, if he is not attracted to women with intersex or transsexual histories, he can say "I'm sorry, I assumed you were cissexual and this doesn't work for me" and go on his merry way (I will refrain from getting into the latent unaddressed issues I believe such men have with their own sexualities) or a variation along the lines of "I'm sorry, I not sexually attracted to people with a penis", OR he can go all irrationally rageful as in the case originally brought up and beat or kill this woman for, well, whatever exactly is going on in his head at the time, it sure seems like what they really get angry about are those latent issues I mentioned earlier, like somehow being attracted to someone with an intersex or male history makes you GAY OMG.y

I agree that there is no excuse for reacting in any abusive manner. That is not the point here. Now there are some people who may be aware of the terms you used here but honestly, most straight men are NOT. All they know is man/woman. Not cissexual man/cissexual woman as opposed to transsexual. In a perfect world you would like for most men to be so understanding, and trust me they will be more understanding when you are upfront about it! But for you to present yourself as a woman to a straight man, the last thing he wants to find is a penis no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. Even post op is unexceptable! They do not want to know that in any way shape or form were you ever the owner of male genitalia. What you guys are not understanding here is that it is not about YOUR feelings and how you THINK things should be. It is about reality and the way things are. Not saying they should be this way, but since they are this way, the bottom line is we care about all of technical terms and psychological aspects of the situation. These guys do not, and that is what is made clear in the BLOG, not in the stories it cited. This person was just trying to get their point across of how seriously crazy some people will go over this stuff and its not a joke. As much as you want to pretend and believe that not every one is like this, there are alot of straight men out there who would harm you for this and those are the men that cant be messed with.

[whatsername]

I don't think my expectations of men are unrealistic at all. 

Although I am perfectly aware that the current average male (and female) are not familiar with all the terms I used, well, I'm in Womens Studies so that's not a new situation for me.   Using them gets them into circulation in wider circles.

To simply shrug off the thinking that allows situations like the one cited to happen is along the same lines to me as shrugging off rape apology.  Feminists don't do that because the stakes are simply too high to do so, and the same is true here.

Society is constantly a work in progress, but we have to keep working towards how we know things should be.  And holding people responsible for their actions is the first step, that means holding rapists responsible for raping and murderers responsible for murdering, and not passing the blame off on the raped or the murdered.

[one4me]

Society is constantly a work in progress, but we have to keep working towards how we know things should be.  And holding people responsible for their actions is the first step, that means holding rapists responsible for raping and murderers responsible for murdering, and not passing the blame off on the raped or the murdered.

And again with the lack of understanding...the blame was NOT being passed off on the victim! The statement was that you should protect yourself and avoid putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations. I can understand how you all want to turn the story into whatever you want it to be but honestly it is what it is, and yes the world today is a work in progress and people may be more accepting of things tomorrow than they are today. In the meantime keep yourself safe.

[whatsername]

As a cissexual woman I have had to learn ways of protecting myself also.  They were reinforced constantly growing up, the threat men potentially represent to me was understood at a young age.  I can not and do not claim to understand the additional coping mechanisms needed for trans or intersex folks to survive, though I know they exist.  Please don't think that I am disregarding your history with violence, its effect on you, or criticizing you for encouraging people to stay safe.  That is not my intent at all, and indeed I have friends who by all rights should be dead because of this kind of violence, so my argument is not coming from a "lack of understanding" or a denial of the severity of these instances but from what I believe is an absolutely vital line in the sand.

The line is simply this: the person committing atrocities against another person MUST be held responsible. 

I don't think we need to be told to keep ourselves safe... Do we?  Don't we as women (in this particular case) learn very quickly what actions we need to perform, and what activities to avoid to keep ourselves safe?  Aren't those beaten into our heads on a regular basis?

We are all conscious of the compromises we make in our lives to keep ourselves safe.  Aren't we?

My thing is that they ARE compromises.  I know they are, I'm sure you know they are.  And we shouldn't HAVE to make compromises to "stay safe".  That is idealistic, I know, but I think as long as we let the conversation revolve around us and how we can stay safe we are in some ways letting abusers off the hook, when the conversation should be revolving around THEM and their atrocious actions.

Until there is a resounding "HOW DARE YOU" response to abusive behavior like in the article from the mainstream I feel like I have to just yell it louder to compensate, and going immediately into the compromises to be made (compromises I'm confident we all are already making as best we can) seems to reinforce exactly what they want...For us to continue making adjustments FOR THEM, thinking how WE can adjust OUR behavior FOR THEM, instead of insisting to be treated like human beings BY them.  When it's doing the latter which will eventually, gods willing, make it possible for us to live in, take up space in the world without making compromises.

And that's not to attack what you're saying, really, but to explain why my posts have focused as they have.

[Janet_Girl]

I am late to the party as usual.  But Yes you should tell them, but when is the question.

And to blame the TS for being beaten or murdered, is the same thing as blaming the victum for rape.

[one4me]

now here you come with the same statement...no one is BLAMING the Transsexual for this situation, again must I say it over and over....VIOLENCE WAS NEVER SUPPORTED HERE! So stop trying to say that Im blaming the ts or saying that the other guy should be let off the hook! Any one who can take another persons life should not be able to walk the streets in my opinion!!! What Im saying is that you guys dont realize that the blogger was just pointing out the fact that the ts put herself in a dangerous situation in which case anything could have happened. But to say it was the ts FAULT that she was murdered is like saying that its any woman who wears a mini skirt's fault if they get raped. That would be ridiculous! But when wearing that mini skirt you should know to stay out of dark alleys or anywhere someone could potentially harm you BECAUSE you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is the key here, just stick with guys who will accept you for who you are completely because if you go around meddling in the water with sharks for fun then dont be surprised when your ass gets bitten.

[Catherine]

one4me, shut up. Your mentality is the same as the wifes who tried to defend why their husbands hit them or their children. Its not being a TS, its hanging out with violent scumbags thats the problem.

You are probably quite correct about the violent scumbags. But why leave yourself open to an adverse reaction by trying to be secretive about your situation?

There are a lot of men out there who will react this way (I am not for one minute suggesting it is right) so why put yourself in that position?

So I agree with one4me dont put yourself in a place that might turn bad. No matter what you think about people accepting you as you are.

I dont.

[Kate]

But Yes you should tell them, but when is the question.

What about postops?

~Kate~

[Catherine]

But Yes you should tell them, but when is the question.

What about postops?

~Kate~

You could still get a very adverse reaction when they eventually find out. Isnt it always best to be honest ?

[one4me]

But Yes you should tell them, but when is the question.

What about postops?

~Kate~

Now this right here is the core of the topic.

If you are pre op and a man is coming on to you whom you know is completely straight, you can automatically assume they will be turned off to know you are transsexual. By making this assumption you will save yourself alot of trouble by just not taking it any further from there. If you see the man has kind gentle qualities then you may be able to share your situation with out a bad reaction. Just get the person in private and tell them. You'd be surprised how understanding some men can be as long as THEY are not put into a compromising situation.

Now post op I would say take the same measures because you never want to risk a straight man finding out this information on his own. It can be very upsetting for them because like the blog said, in their mind this makes them look gay, regardless of what you believe. Thats when things can turn ugly. Just avoid putting them into any compromising situation before being made aware of who you are.

[Kelley Jo]

Read my edited post.

Posted on: November 18, 2008, 09:04:59 am

But Yes you should tell them, but when is the question.

What about postops?

~Kate~

LOL, Kate is all like, YAY!

[one4me]

  for Catherine for understanding the message im trying to put forth.

And @ the person who said I will never win this arguement. I can agree with you.  As long as there are mtf or ftm out there who try to get away with lying in situations where they shouldnt and end up getting caught and hurt badly, I know I haven't won. But you better be guaranteed I will still try my best to get my message across to someone.

[Kelley Jo]

My opinion is that the wise gals here will tell you, yes, by all means be honest. That is what they say amongst themselves.

But if an outsider comes along telling them they HAVE to be honest they go all Roe v Wade and invoke the female privilege thing; it's my body.

Or they try to shift blame and say you are homophobic for freaking out because she has a d__k. A total disconnect with reality.

At the end of the day you must realize this is a TS support site. We are here to support each other and even though we know the truth, we're not going to let just any douchenozzle tell us the time of day.

[Kate]

As long as there are mtf or ftm out there who try to get away with lying...

Are postops really "lying?"

Say a guy is attracted to me (please, say that a lot, I need to hear it, lol), and we start dating with the expectation of a possible heterosexual relationship.

As a postop, what have I "lied" about? He's expecting hetero sex... I can provide it. Nothing was misrepresented.

Yes, I get that a lot of guys would freak out upon learning my history. I get that withholding that part of my past is risking trouble. I get it. But ethically, in The Perfect World, I'm under no obligation to reveal my past to anyone, IMHO.

~Kate~

[Catherine]

My opinion is that the wise gals here will tell you, yes, by all means be honest. That is what they say amongst themselves.

But if an outsider comes along telling them they HAVE to be honest they go all Roe v Wade and invoke the female privilege thing; it's my body.

Or they try to shift blame and say you are homophobic for freaking out because she has a d__k. A total disconnect with reality.

At the end of the day you must realize this is a TS support site. We are here to support each other and even though we know the truth, we're not going to let just any douchnozzle tell us the time of day.

Yes you are right, but support does not include telling somone to get all feminist about a situation that could be very very dangerous.

[one4me]

As long as there are mtf or ftm out there who try to get away with lying...

Are postops really "lying?"

Say a guy is attracted to me (please, say that a lot, I need to hear it, lol), and we start dating with the expectation of a possible heterosexual relationship.

As a postop, what have I "lied" about? He's expecting hetero sex... I can provide it. Nothing was misrepresented.

Yes, I get that a lot of guys would freak out upon learning my history. I get that withholding that part of my past is risking trouble. I get it. But ethically, in The Perfect World, I'm under no obligation to reveal my past to anyone, IMHO.

~Kate~

The key words here are "The Perfect World". Our world is not perfect yet. You can daydream about your situation not being a problem one day all you want. I agree that you're are not obligated to reveal your past. That is up to you. My only scruple about that is if your NOT going to reveal your past, you better hide it damn well because if he finds out and he's one of those nutcases who will freak out, then you will know you could have saved yourself the danger by just being honest from the beginning. But no, noone is absolutely OBLIGATED to be honest. Its just the right thing to do to ensure your safety and the other parties contentment.

[mickie88]

i avoid this  situation as much as possible. i don't date and i sure as hell will never date a "cissexual male".

my wife and i are doing quite alright for the most part.


oh and being completely honest up front doesn't guarentee your safety either, that man like in this case still may decide to beat the living hell out of you and kill you, i'm surprised i don't remember reading any one post that scenario. the world is not perfect and never will be. that ended when Adam and Eve ate from the Forbidden Tree of Fruit!




Warrior Princess Mickie

[Kelley Jo]

The key words here are "The Perfect World". Our world is not perfect yet. You can daydream about your situation not being a problem one day all you want. I agree that you're are not obligated to reveal your past. That is up to you. My only scruple about that is if your NOT going to reveal your past, you better hide it damn well because if he finds out and he's one of those nutcases who will freak out, then you will know you could have saved yourself the danger by just being honest from the beginning. But no, noone is absolutely OBLIGATED to be honest. Its just the right thing to do to ensure your safety and the other parties contentment.

You know, I believe they are very well aware of this. I think what they are doing is pushing boundaries and testing the limits of our conventional thinking. Kate and the others know that no matter how convincingly they pull it off their past will catch up to them at some point. She knows she will have to be honest, she's just trying to figure out where exactly that is in the relationship continuum.