How Obama Won

[soldierjane]

"You say 'anarchy' like it's a bad thing"

All I hear is Johnny Rotten screaming "I am an anarchist!" over and over.

Johnny Rotten was a rotten anarchist. 

~Simone,
      All the comedic skill of a bus.

Huh? There are degrees of skill as an anarchist? Doesn't that more or less mean there's "archy" in anarchism? *puzzling*

Nikki

Giggle. Anarchism is not just about dismantling hierarchy, it's about establishing functional systems of direct self-government. Punk was angry and political and stuff, and raised valid issues, but unless anarchism offers alternatives, it's really quite useless.

~Simone.

So Anarchism is a transitive state?

[Shana A]

"You say 'anarchy' like it's a bad thing"

All I hear is Johnny Rotten screaming "I am an anarchist!" over and over.

Johnny Rotten was a rotten anarchist. 

~Simone,
      All the comedic skill of a bus.

Huh? There are degrees of skill as an anarchist? Doesn't that more or less mean there's "archy" in anarchism? *puzzling*

Nikki

Emma Goldman was more my style of anarchist than Johnny Rotten

Z

[lady amarant]

So Anarchism is a transitive state?

Anarchies have served as transitional states in the past - the anarchist community collectives after the economic and government collapse in Argentina in 1992, for example, but the true goal of Anarchism is to permanently replace hierarchical states with flat structures. Keep in mind that anarchism does not preclude leadership or specialisation, but it does absolutely oppose the concentration of power in those individuals. There have been a number of functional anarchies in the past, such as the Spanish who opposed Franco, for example. The best example though must be the US itself.

The US was very anarchist early on in its history - the right to bear arms, for example, is a result of this, included to prevent a state monopoly on violence, so that US citizens would always be in a position to overthrow their government if such became necessary. In early America, land-owners collectively made the decisions that would affect the town they lived in, and everybody was pretty autonamous and self-empowered. (except the slaves. And the women. And the poor - they were semi-anarchists and strongy capitalist, not too enlightened though. ) This is what Republicans tend to get all misty eyed over - Ayn Rand's Objectivism is basically capitalist anarchism. Of course, the economic meltdown, amongst other greed-induced disasters, has shown rather pointedly that capitalism's excesses must be regulated by a state, but that's a separate discussion.

The nature of America changed at some point around WWII though, and as the age of the bogeymen started with the cold war, Americans lost or gave up more and more individual power, replacing true freedom with 'consumer freedom'. They abdicated responsibility and replaced learning and civic involvement with entertainment, and 70-odd years on, think in soundbites and brands instead of concepts and philosophies.

Of course, the rest of the West, South Africa included, isn't far behind. An anarchist government couldn't work at the moment - one needs an educated, empowered populace for that.

~Simone.

[lisagurl]

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MzUzY2RkNGM3OTU3NjgzOWY0MTUzNTQwNzc1NTkyZTU=

How smart are voters?

[tekla]

Emma Goldman was more my style of anarchist than Johnny Rotten

Me too, but her songs just don't rock. 

"Anarchism, really stands for the liberation of the human mind from the dominion of religion; the liberation of the human body from the dominion of property; liberation from the shackles and restraint of government."  from old Emma there

[Shana A]

Emma Goldman was more my style of anarchist than Johnny Rotten

Me too, but her songs just don't rock. 

LOL, you do have a good point there 

This talk of anarchy is putting me in the mood to dig out my old Billy Bragg CDs.

Z

[daisybelle]

I find your use of "Repugnant" highly suspect.   Maybe we should attach "baby-killers" as the Democrat. 

It seems to me that "Repugnant" pretty well sums up the party in question.

As for why the Zogby folk wouldn't do the same thing with McCain supporters? Well, since the Zogs are rightists, then I imagine they refused because they knew what they'd find: that right-wingers are just as vacuous as the people in the vid.

Dimwits or Baby-killers it is --- I find it "Repugnant" to have some who supports the slaughter of unborn children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zogby_International

In November of 2008, Zogby conducted a 'push poll' at the request of John Ziegler. The poll targeted Obama supporters and asked leading questions with a bias against the candidate they supported, as reported by the Wall Street Journal. According to Ziegler himself, the poll was intended to show that Obama supporters were inept. After an uproar in the press suggested that Zogby had displayed a degree of bias discrediting the company's presumed impartiality, Zogby refused to conduct another push poll also commissioned by Ziegler aimed at McCain supporters.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/zogby-engages-in-apparent-push-polling.html

Looks to me Zogby did not want to perform the poll because it damaged his credibility the first time.  It seems to me if his credibility was at stake the best thing he could do was do the right-sided poll.

But you see it your way -- I see it mine. 

Interesting thread on BC Issue... http://www.legalnewsline.com/news/216858-obama-citizenship-question-goes-to-u.s.-supreme-court

Lastly --- I believe that the RNC, Rush, and McCain do not want to be associated with the potential takedown of our President Elect.   If that were to occur the "Dimwits" would point the finger at the right as --- ( well you fill in you own adjestives).    It is like the crowd betting on the underdog "Dover" in the movie "My Fair Lady".  Everyone is to prim and proper to cheer n "Dover" , well that is except for Miss Eliza... who shouts in her best cockneyed (i think) accent "Come on Dover !! Move your bloomin ass!!"   I think most of the right is in this boat but won't step forward for fear of the left labelling them.  Gee can you think of any other talk show hosts that lost their job over their comments?

It seems to be you have a set of blinders and earmuffs and are not open to hear anything contrary to your opinion.

Daisy

[tekla]

No, but I do know how to count, and the latest counts have Obama winning by over 9 million votes spread about in such a way that it give him the electoral victory. 

Gee can you think of any other talk show hosts that lost their job over their comments?
Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect, for the remark about the 9-11 terrorists, where he was agreeing with a conservative commentator: "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly."

[lisagurl]

Dimwits or Baby-killers it is

I guess fetus termination does not have the poetic ring.

[daisybelle]

No, but I do know how to count, and the latest counts have Obama winning by over 9 million votes spread about in such a way that it give him the electoral victory. 

Not questioning the vote

Gee can you think of any other talk show hosts that lost their job over their comments?
Bill Maher, Politically Incorrect, for the remark about the 9-11 terrorists, where he was agreeing with a conservative commentator: "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly."

Imus too... I think everyone sees the masses as a quagmire of political correctness guano and at this point they would rather not step into it.

Daisy

[daisybelle]

Dimwits or Baby-killers it is

I guess fetus termination does not have the poetic ring.

Fetus / Embryo / Baby / Potential

Killer / Termination / Slaughter  / Massacre / Murder

Mix and match as you see fit....

Daisy

[tekla]

Always thought that was a 'red meat' issue anyway.  Trotted out every campaign by a bunch of people who NEVER HAD ANY INTENTION OF CHANGING THE LAW ONCE THEY GOT INTO POWER.  (I wanted that point to be well understood, I think they were lying, also about prayer in school)  Why?  Well because abortion and prayer in school have nothing to do with money and power and that's why these people are in politics in the first place.  They are not issues that affect the people who really support them (as opposed to those who merely vote for them). 

Given the Repub assent since Regan, through the control of the house, and its 5-4 balance on the Court, how come in all that time, 3 Repub presidents, a Repub majority in the House and Senate, this was never brought up - but NAFTA, GATT and Deregulation were?  Changing the bankruptcy laws to make it easier for banks to collect?  Done deal.  But prayer in school or abortion, never proposed.  Given all those years could Renquist, Thomas, Scallia, Roberts et. all. could not have found ONE case to hear?  Guess not.

The fact of the matter was the religious right got played by the Repubs for decades and decades making them something more akin to 'marks' than 'voters.' 

The best understanding of this notion is found in a very easy to understand book called What's the Matter with Kansas, by Thomas Frank.  Its a good read, and pretty smart reasoning.   

[lisagurl]

Fetus / Embryo / Baby / Potential

Killer / Termination / Slaughter  / Massacre / Murder

Mix and match as you see fit....

Daisy

Would you like a dictionary for Christmas?

[NicholeW.]

Dimwits or Baby-killers it is --- I find it "Repugnant" to have some who supports the slaughter of unborn children.

It seems to be you have a set of blinders and earmuffs and are not open to hear anything contrary to your opinion.

Daisy

Strictly open to hearing it. I'm always hearing it. Agreeing with it and finding it persuasive? No.

I suppose if I were willing to be totally obtuse I could say the same about your opinions, but they are what they are. I don't have any hope of changing them.

I do find it odd that the religious right can get all lathered up about embryonic and fetal tissue and turn a blind eye to the oppressions, murders and innumerable sorrows visited on born human beings by their (right's) policies and desires.

I know all of those words you used quite well, Daisy. But I would imagine there are more than enough things to get lathered about when they are applied to human beings who are already alive. I don't nptice as much outrage from that lot when say an Angie Zapata or Gwen Araujo or Duanna Johnson are murdered as they manage to summon for 150 cells harvested from the ovaries of a woman to be used for stem-cell research.

Perspective is an odd thing. We all have 'em and they tend not to be the same ones.

Nichole

[soldierjane]

Dimwits or Baby-killers it is

I guess fetus termination does not have the poetic ring.

It's like being "pro-life". Who is "pro-death" anyway?

[soldierjane]

Dimwits or Baby-killers it is

I guess fetus termination does not have the poetic ring.

Fetus / Embryo / Baby / Potential

Killer / Termination / Slaughter  / Massacre / Murder

Mix and match as you see fit....

Daisy

Murder potential: A much-needed quantifier on people one meets

Massacre Baby: A sexy young woman fights her way up from illegal pit-fights to the bloodlords who killed her parents.

Killer Fetus: A pregnant woman goes on a murderous rampage... only it's not
HER doing the killing.

Termination Embryo: The art film about the day-to-day realities of being a rail depot worker's son.

Murder Massacre!: or, Wizard of Gore 5K

Potential Fetus: What to do and how to get over the blues of being a failed conception. See our ad on Dr. Phil magazine!

[whatsername]

That is thoroughly debunked propoganda.

[daisybelle]

And today in the Chicago Times:
http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/12/01/obama-birth-certificate-rears-its-ugly-head-again/?icid=200100397x1213691203x1200912886

From the ad:
Compelling evidence supports the claim that you are barred from holding
the Office of President by the "natural born citizen" clause of the U.S.
Constitution. For instance:
• You have posted on the Internet an unsigned, forged and thoroughly
discredited, computer-generated birth form created in 2007, a form
that lacks vital information found on any original, hand signed
Certificate of Live Birth, such as hospital address, signature of
attending physician and age of mother.
• Hawaii Dept of Health will not confirm your assertion that you were born
in Hawaii.
• Legal affidavits state you were born in Kenya.
• Your grandmother is recorded on tape saying she attended your birth
in Kenya.
• U.S. Law in effect in 1961 denied U.S. citizenship to any child born
in Kenya if the father was Kenyan and the mother was not yet 19
years of age.
• In 1965, your mother legally relinquished whatever Kenyan or U.S.
citizenship she and you had by marrying an Indonesian and becoming
a naturalized Indonesian citizen.

Sit back it is going to be a bumpy ride...

Daisy

[whatsername]

An ad from some libertarian-ish group.

How is that compelling?

This topic has been thoroughly debunked also, it's just absurd people are still latching on it.

From Snopes.com:

A number of self-proclaimed experts immediately seized the opportunity to pronounce the certificate a forgery (even though none of them had actually seen the original, just a scanned image of it), picking on such specious details as minor variations from other Hawaii-issued certificates and the lack of an embossed seal and signature. (Some forgery claimants even maintained that the certificate was actually an altered version of one issued to Barack Obama's half-sister, Maya.) Aside from the inherent absurdity of such claims (i.e., that a major party presidential nominee would risk his entire candidacy on a fraud that could be uncovered simply by a check of state health records), the supposedly incriminating details don't pan out: the certificate is consistent with others issued in the same time and place, and the embossed seal and signature don't show through very well on the scanned front image made available on the Internet because they were applied to the back of the original document, not the front. Those who have actually touched and examined the original certificate have verified and documented that it bears all the elements of a valid certificate of live birth.

A birth announcement for Barack Obama Jr. was also published in the Honolulu Advertiser on 13 August 1961, reporting a 4 August 1961 birth date for the child of Mr. and Mrs. Barack Obama:



In August 2008, Philadelphia attorney Philip Berg included claims of a forged certificate (among other rumors) as the basis for a suit in U.S. District Court challenging Barack Obama's eligibility for the presidency on the grounds that Obama was actually born in Kenya (not Hawaii) and/or subsequently gave up his U.S. citizenship and thus does not qualify as a native-born citizen of the U.S. In October 2008 a federal judge dismissed the complaint:

In a 34-page memorandum and opinion, the judge said Berg's allegations of harm were "too vague and too attenuated" to confer standing on him or any other voters.

Surrick ruled that Berg's attempts to use certain laws to gain standing to pursue his claim that Obama was not a natural-born citizen were "frivolous and not worthy of discussion."

The judge also said the harm Berg alleged did "not constitute an injury in fact" and Berg's arguments to the contrary "ventured into the unreasonable."

(Contrary to various e-mails, Barack Obama has not "been ordered to produce his birth certificate by December 1"; that is simply the response date set for one of the several related filings still working its way through the U.S. court system.)

Also in October 2008, Hawaiian officials reported that they had personally verified the existence of Barack Obama's original birth certificate.

State officials say there's no doubt Barack Obama was born in Hawaii.

   
Sources:

    Hinkelman, Michael.   "Judge Rejects Montco Lawyer's Bid to Have Obama Removed from Ballot."
        Philadelphia Daily News.   25 October 2008.

    Nakaso, Dan.   "Obama's Certificate of Birth OK, State Says."
        Honolulu Advertiser.   1 November 2008.

    Associated Press.   "State Department of Health Declares Obama Birth Certificate Legal."
        Honolulu Star-Bulletin.   31 October 2008.

[Robin C.]

Why there are McCain supporters on SUSAN'S is beyond me lol. What do you think McCain is gonna do for us?

There are too many facts to play with to start sharing conspiracy theories this late in the game.

And the vid was bollocks. People -gasp- have lives away from politics. The average voter is going to be ill-informed - that's what makes them average. They exist in both parties, not just Obama's party. At least they aren't the ones going "Treason! Hang him! Terrorist!" As cheesy as it sounds, Obama is a terrorist. Anyone who is afraid of anything disrupting the status quo is going to be terrified.