couldn't some gender beliefs be considered religious by nature?

[Jessie_Heart]

ok first off I am going to warn everyone this post may seem out of left field for some people but please bear with me.

The Civil rights Act of 1964 states "To be a bona fide religious belief entitled to protection under either the First Amendment or Title VII, a belief must be sincerely held, and within the believer's own scheme of things religious." (USCA Const. Amend 1: Civil Rights Act 1964 701 et seq., 717 as amended 42 USCA 2000-16)

now I have many times heard many people make the statments that they believe that thier deity of chioce made them the way they are (giving a religious overtone to the entire condition)! they may use terms like this deity made a mistake or nature made a mistake or even question why said deity would do this to them. I have heard people say that as a child they would prey that said deity would correct thier bodies (there for this would be a long held belief). I have heard the phrase "I have the spirt of a _____ insert appropiate gender identity here" which is definately religious in nature. if they believe that thier deity of choice made them the way they are by accident or especially if on purpose  wouldn't they in some way have to believe that it is "deity's will" that they express this in thier lives? then wouldn't the next logical step in this thought process be that by expressing this in thier lives by gender expression or hrt or even through surgery they are just part in a religious pratice?
sorry if my terms throw anyone off I wanted to make this as inclusive as I possibily could I didn't want to leave anyone out if it was avoidable.

[Sephirah]

I have heard the phrase "I have the spirt of a _____ insert appropiate gender identity here" which is definately religious in nature.

Spirituality and religion aren't the same thing. You can be spiritual without being religious.

[NicholeW.]

Given a lot of our arguments about gender, sex, identity and the lack or mutability of any and all of the above I think we certainly have a lot of the religious structure in place. Not sure if any of us have yet burnt or stoned or 'converted' anyone else, but in that regard we are far along the pathway to making a religion of ours and other people's lives!

Now what I think you're asking about is something to fill in the spaces? Like a gender-spirit or gender god/dess who animates us.

Nicely done Jessie. Your post wasn't offensive in the least.

Now all we need to do is decide how srs, ffs, bas, or shunning all three, mastectomies, hysterectomies, or shunning both, shirts or slacks, who we are attracted to or not match with Christian and other religious sacraments. Hey girl, I think you're onto something here!!

Nice post.

[Jessie_Heart]

Given a lot of our arguments about gender, sex, identity and the lack or mutability of any and all of the above I think we certainly have a lot of the religious structure in place. Not sure if any of us have yet burnt or stoned or 'converted' anyone else, but in that regard we are far along the pathway to making a religion of ours and other people's lives!

Now what I think you're asking about is something to fill in the spaces? Like a gender-spirit or gender god/dess who animates us.

Nicely done Jessie. Your post wasn't offensive in the least.

Now all we need to do is decide how srs, ffs, bas, or shunning all three, mastectomies, hysterectomies, or shunning both, shirts or slacks, who we are attracted to or not match with Christian and other religious sacraments. Hey girl, I think you're onto something here!!

Nice post.

thanks I just figured I had way to much free time and I filled it with thinking about abstract things way too often.
Post Merge: January 31, 2009, 09:35:13 AM

I have heard the phrase "I have the spirt of a _____ insert appropiate gender identity here" which is definately religious in nature.

Spirituality and religion aren't the same thing. You can be spiritual without being religious.

I agree with the concept you have presented here but shouldn't spiritual beliefs have protections as well?

[Sephirah]

I agree with the concept you have presented here but shouldn't spiritual beliefs have protections as well?

It depends in what context. In general... I'm not sure they're really necessary, since spiritual (non-religious) people aren't usually so... forceful in their beliefs. They don't tend to evangelise.

However, that's really a slightly different subject. In terms of placing gender identity in a spiritual context... honestly, I'm not so sure it would be a good idea. Because if you protect the belief rather than the individual... then you move away from people having the right to be themselves simply because they're as much a person, and important a part of society as anyone else... and go down the road of 'humouring' people's gender identity purely because it supposedly comes from an external, metaphysical source that cannot be proved or disproved.

I think it would be a better idea to have equal rights and protection for people with all forms of GID on the basis that they're a human being, and have the same opportunities and freedoms as all other human beings,  than based on where that GID did or didn't come from... after all, what about the people with GID who are neither spiritual nor religious? What happens to them?

[tekla]

It is religion, an organized group of faith, not spirituality, that is protected, and this is not a religion.  Religion may have something, or even a lot to say about it, but its not falling under that kind of protection.

[Jessie_Heart]

I agree with the concept you have presented here but shouldn't spiritual beliefs have protections as well?

It depends in what context. In general... I'm not sure they're really necessary, since spiritual (non-religious) people aren't usually so... forceful in their beliefs. They don't tend to evangelise.

However, that's really a slightly different subject. In terms of placing gender identity in a spiritual context... honestly, I'm not so sure it would be a good idea. Because if you protect the belief rather than the individual... then you move away from people having the right to be themselves simply because they're as much a person, and important a part of society as anyone else... and go down the road of 'humouring' people's gender identity purely because it supposedly comes from an external, metaphysical source that cannot be proved or disproved.

I think it would be a better idea to have equal rights and protection for people with all forms of GID on the basis that they're a human being, and have the same opportunities and freedoms as all other human beings,  than based on where that GID did or didn't come from... after all, what about the people with GID who are neither spiritual nor religious? What happens to them?

I agree wholeheartedly with this way of thinking and in and of this if things were carried out right and with the idea that as long as they are not causing harm to others they have a right to do whatever they wish and be who they are without being harrassed there would be no need for any amendments to the constitution because there would be no need to say people have these rights and protections because noone would be judgemental at all. I think it is a sad commentary about our society that we need to write out laws that protect people from being treated in these ways when a pre-school child knows when they are being mean to people and treating them bad. if everything was based on the concept of everyone being equal then everyone would know that there was noone that has a right to judge anyone else because everyone would know all people are equal and no one person is any better than anyone else. this topic was not meant to state any certainties as far as these being religious beliefs and it was not meant to leave out people who fall into the non-religious portion of society. I intended this as a is it possible to interpret things this way type of thing. and I will agree the the subject of evangelising is a different subject so I will not debate that here.

[Sephirah]

I think it is a sad commentary about our society that we need to write out laws that protect people from being treated in these ways when a pre-school child knows when they are being mean to people and treating them bad. if everything was based on the concept of everyone being equal then everyone would know that there was noone that has a right to judge anyone else because everyone would know all people are equal and no one person is any better than anyone else.

I completely agree, Jessie. It is a very sad state of affairs that such things are necessary.

this topic was not meant to state any certainties as far as these being religious beliefs and it was not meant to leave out people who fall into the non-religious portion of society. I intended this as a is it possible to interpret things this way type of thing. and I will agree the the subject of evangelising is a different subject so I will not debate that here.

I guess anything's possible, honey. There are as many different viewpoints as there are people who have them, and interpretations of most things are legion. Perhaps, to some people, gender issues, and the way they're dealt with, are given a religious leaning. If that gives their life meaning, a kind of peace, and an insight into how they percieve their place in the world, then so much the better.

Not everyone will share that viewpoint, granted, but then... they don't have to. What one person believes and how they use that to live their life is no reflection on the validity of someone else's standpoint about the same issue. And as far as metaphysics/higher powers are concerned... well, we can never really know for sure, can we?