Gender Identity

[Rachael]

Ok, the 'special and blessed trans' topic was locked for 'looking like it might involve differeing opinions. Aside from my view of that, which is irrelevant, i think the topic needs to be discussed.

Some groups belive that women who transition must identify as trans women, or transsexual women. because they are....

some groups, feel that thier identity came about before they transitioned, and irrespective of transition, they are that... female. Now this can work for f2ms too, but ive never seen this much identity argument from those guys... this seems mutually exclusive to m2fs....

I'd like to use this topic as a discussion of this subject: Identity...

I implore posters to maintain civility, we do not want this topic locked, because i for one would REALLY like to get a solid answer/ conclusion for once.... I would also ask that the moderating team please use thier best judgement, not 'well it may become a flame war'. I think this needs to be discussed once and for all.... to get it out of the way.

My own personal view, is that I have never been a man, or a transsexual... i was born a woman, i transitioned my body. I have a female mind, and a female body... whats trans there?

I hope this topic bears fruit.

[NicholeW.]

Has three years of "discussing" this made an ounce of difference to anyone? Not that I have yet to read, Rach. We struggle. We find the best ways for ourselves or ways we hope are best for ourselves.

That fact alone means that no amount of discussion is gonna get us to come to a "one-size fits all" agreement. The reason we get "flame-wars" about the matter is that people feel threatened in some way when others aren't just like them. Get over it. If we both had surgery with the same surgeon, on the same day, at the same site and we were matched in age and experience we would still manage to disagree about something.

There will never be an end to this topic as long as people either 1) want to stir dissension for their own ends 2) live lives differently than one another. I can only prove my validity by living my life. No amount of writing, arguing or talking about it is gonna prove anything. Live it and be at peace with your life. That's the answer.

[Shana A]

I believe that I was born exactly as I am, with female spirit in a male body. I've never related to being male since I was a child, and never tried to conform.

I respect the right of every person to self identify however they wish and only ask the same in return. I believe that people who are binary gender can coexist with people who aren't.

Z

[Rachael]

Precicely.... I agree totally hon, I identify solely as female... but like you, im willing to let others identify as they feel... thats thier right, and id be a hypocrite if i said otherwise.... I often find a lot of argument comes from people attempting to force identities on others... or that they must identify a certain way.

[Ashley315]

I admire your determination of being labeled as "just a woman".  It is true, we were all born with female brains, but the chromosomes (in most cases) just did not match that unfortunately.  So we got labeled as male on our birth certificates.  We were from that point on, until we got fed up with it and decided to do something about it, raised and treated as such.  At some point, we decided (needed) to make a change to our body to match our mind.  We (at least in the eyes of the majority population) "changed from being male to female" (trans sexed) even though we may have always seen ourselves as female.  So to the majority populous, that makes a person a transsexual.

I fully understand you saying you are female now and have always been.  I totally agree with you.  By me saying you are a transsexual woman is like me saying you have blond hair or green eyes or of African heritage.  It is just another biologically controlled aspect of what makes you, you.  You should never be considered "just a ->-bleeped-<-" or anything of the like.

I only have a problem with your way of thinking when the "I'm more woman than you because I don't think I'm a transsexual" issues start coming up.  I do consider myself a transwoman, but it's just what I am.  I'm also a blue eyed brunette woman of Native American decent.  None of those factors makes me any less of a woman than you or my natal female wife.  I am your equal.

The problem is not how we see ourselves, but rather how the scientific/biological  world views us, and to them, we are transsexuals.  However, does it matter what anyone else thinks?  What is important is how you feel.  It seems that you want to deny any connection to transsexualism, and if so, that is fine by me.  That only leads me to wonder, why do you come here?  If you really don't want to be linked with or seen as a transsexual, it seems to me this place would be the last place you would want to be around.

I really don't want to start a holy war over this and I do feel that the last thread was partially my fault as I did come across rather condescending.  I apologize for that.

[Rachael]

For the record...  I do not think myself better... i dont think thats ever come up in this.... I see myself as a woman.. yes...im not scoring things... life is not a pissing contest... unlike trans forums tend to generate... I dont care whos better or worse, just what i am/

As for your explantions, i can agree to an extent, yes, in the medical sense, yes, i am transsexual, and it will always remain that way. but One is only a 'trans woman' or 'transsexual woman' imo, if they intereact with society in that way... either volunterily, or because they apear transsexual to society....

If one looks like a duck, acts like a duck, quacks, swims, and has feathers like a duck, its a duck.... and i dont know many duck hunters with inbuild cromasonal analalysers.... or people in this case.... If one apears a woman, and one identifies as a woman, Trans doesnt come into it, weather its 'fact' or not.

On a note of ignoring history: some of us dont have all that much to begin with, so its not denying much.

[tinkerbell]

Hmmmm...I don't know about people, but I can tell you about myself, so let's see Rachael... I'm not "a man" who "became" a woman or a "male" who "changed genders" to "become" a female.  Thinking in that manner is what you normally get when people haven't transitioned mentally or when people are just beginning the transition process (newbies IOW).  They still think of themselves as "men" who "became" or are "becoming" women; hence, cutting them a little bit of slack is appropriate, me thinks.

As for myself,  I am female., always have been, I was born one.  Period.  Whether or not people agree with me is a non-issue.  It is their mere opinion against my own convictions. Now, was I born with a birth defect?  Indeed, I was.  I don't deny that fact, but as I have said a zillion times on this forum, my birth defect (transsexualism) has never been "my indentity" or the essence of who I am.  This is why I usually call myself (on this forum at least) a woman of transsexual history.  First, I am a woman then comes everything else (on this forum ).  Outside in the real world I am just another female, no need for me to make reference of my TS past. Why? simply because my medical history doesn't pertain to anyone except me.... I don't go around telling people I am a diabetic, or had chicken pox or mumps when I was a little girl, same thing with this "TS business"...it is something that is not part of who I am anymore.  I treated it, survived it and now life simply goes on...

Did I answer your question? 


tink

[Just Kate]

I'm glad you started this topic.  I too am interested in its outcome.

My own personal view, is that I have never been a man, or a transsexual... i was born a woman, i transitioned my body. I have a female mind, and a female body... whats trans there?

If you were a bio male that transitioned to female and were not intersexed, then the trans is:

Socially: You have a history of having lived as male however briefly

Biologically: You have XY chromosomes

Psychologically: You have had to deal with defining your identity in a way most never have.

There are more ways in which you could be considered trans I'm sure, but I list just a few to make the point.

[Nero]

I'm glad you started this topic.  I too am interested in its outcome.

If you were a bio male that transitioned to female and were not intersexed, then the trans is:

Socially: You have a history of having lived as male however briefly

Biologically: You have XY chromosomes

Psychologically: You have had to deal with defining your identity in a way most never have.

There are more ways in which you could be considered trans I'm sure, but I list just a few to make the point.

Yeah. Rachael is intersexed.

[Rachael]

If anything... I think my being intersexed is not relevant here. It has its own identity problems.

Interalia: Yes, technically, but does living as a student for 3 years at college make me a student forever?

Sure, i went to college... i am at college... in 10 years, will i still be a student? because i went there once....

Chromasomes are an aside in this debate. This is identity. And i feel its relevance is slight compared to the sociological aspects.

I am a woman to all that know me, Ihave always been a woman to them. I feel female.... surely that makes me female in all actually relevant situations? isnt that all that matters?

As tink has said,  ive yet to meet someone that identified as a chickenpox at 3 woman....

[Ashley315]

or because they apear transsexual to society..






Please tell me this isn't a passing contest here.

[Alyssa M.]

First, I don't believe in the reality of linguistic categories like "man" or "woman." They're just convenient shorthand that allow us to communicate. But because of that, because these terms come from a need to communicate, it's important how other people view my gender. And right now, most people see me as simply a man. That inner sense of my gender and what my gender ought to be is just one voice among countless others. It's an important voice, but that's it.

So as long as I'm presentling mostly as a male, being able to say I'm transsexual or transgender or just trans (I really don't care, and use them in different contexts -- they're just words anyway) is my lifeline, the way that I can negate the perception that I'm a man without it really mattering what anyone else thinks. I'm looking forward to being able to leave that behind, but for now I can't deny everybody else's experience of my gender and declare myself a woman.

I guess what I'm saying is that identity is something that we build through community, gender included. So now I'm working on reconstructing my identity within my community. When I'm done with that I'm sure I'll have a different point of view.

~Alyssa

[Rachael]

or because they apear transsexual to society..






Please tell me this isn't a passing contest here.

Is everything a contest? i really have no care to play games, i care about people in my life... not randoms on the internet... it was a sincere comment. To the effect of someones identity is limited by how society sees them. A woman born trans who passes perfectly is free to identify as she pleases... ts, or just female... a woman of ts background who doesnt pass has a societal limit, because they ARE seen as trans, not as a woman...  bit like tinks comment, does that make sense?

[mina.magpie]

I too identify as entirely female, but to me, my history and experiences being raised as a boy have given me a very different perspective on life than most cisgendered women have. I could go with Tink's "Woman of Transsexual History" terminology because yeah, at this point it is fast becoming history (I've only been in transition for a year and a bit now), but a history I appreciate and value, despite the pain and unhappiness it caused.

To me the biology of the matter doesn't mean that much - Somebody born with CAIS is arguably very similar to a woman of transsexual history, but our experiences shape our understanding of and interaction with the world.

EDIT: That is not to say that it creates our identity, but it does shape it in the same way that my experiences of living in a particular country does, for example.

Mina.

[Ashley315]

Is everything a contest? i really have no care to play games, i care about people in my life... not randoms on the internet... it was a sincere comment. To the effect of someones identity is limited by how society sees them. A woman born trans who passes perfectly is free to identify as she pleases... ts, or just female... a woman of ts background who doesnt pass has a societal limit, because they ARE seen as trans, not as a woman...  bit like tinks comment, does that make sense?

I dunno, just seems rather.... elitist to me.  Like those that pass are somehow better than those that don't.  I mean you saying that you can identify as a woman only because you look like one and someone who doesn't look all that much like one can't, is.... just wrong.  I mean, by that standard, if you were ever to be read, then you could no longer say the same about yourself right?

[Mister]

FWIW, the guys also have this debate.  I've been told i'm everything from a liar to ashamed of my female past when I refuse to identify as FTM.  Unfortunately to access some portions of this site I must leave the obnoxious label. 

A story from IRL, just for kicks-

I started going to a new clinic who treats only women and trans people and filled out their forms, which had five options.  Female, Male, MTF, FTM, Decline to state.  I filled all of mine out as male since legally, this is what I am.  I am post-op all around, so there is nothing 'female' about my care whatsoever.  Anyhoo, a receptionist calls me back into their conference room and, after we establish that i am there for transgender care, explains to me that I *must* change everything on my forms from male to FTM because they don't treat men.  I pointed out to her that 1.) The forms ask "How do you identify?" not "Kindly disclose your transsexual status, if any, by using the following options" and 2.) Why have an option for 'Male' if you don't treat biological men?  Needless to say, she couldn't answer any of my questions and wrote "PT does not ID as FTM." on newly marked FTM paperwork.  My doctor couldn't answer this either.

So yes, OP, I'm supposed to be a ftm forever, which i despise.

[Alyssa M.]

Is everything a contest? i really have no care to play games, i care about people in my life... not randoms on the internet... it was a sincere comment. To the effect of someones identity is limited by how society sees them. A woman born trans who passes perfectly is free to identify as she pleases... ts, or just female... a woman of ts background who doesnt pass has a societal limit, because they ARE seen as trans, not as a woman...  bit like tinks comment, does that make sense?

Well said. This is exactly my point. I'm just on the other side of it right now. The "history" part is definitly false -- it would be more accurate to say "a woman of transsexual present experience."

I didn't see it as the slightest bit elitist, by the way.

[Steph]

Aaaaaah Crap.

I was born a woman with some unsightly birth defects.  My brain, which is the essence of who and what I am told me this.  Regardless of what others may think of me, I am not a transexual woman, that is a label others wish to bestow on me to satisfy their own needs.  My brain did not transition, but my body was fixed and if there are those who wish to call that as being transsexual then so be it.  After all they are entitled to be wrong.

Steph

[Rachael]

I dunno, just seems rather.... elitist to me.  Like those that pass are somehow better than those that don't.  I mean you saying that you can identify as a woman only because you look like one and someone who doesn't look all that much like one can't, is.... just wrong.  I mean, by that standard, if you were ever to be read, then you could no longer say the same about yourself right?

You seem to find elitism in anything i say... I you wish to argue, do so, but this is now what this topic is for, and i stand by my statement.

Oh gosh, in this instancve, someone who passes has 'an advantage' GOLLY GOSH did you just work out passing is advantagous to um, passing?

[Buffy]

I guess after the holy grail of passing,  labels are probably the most debated topic. What we are is irrelevant as long as we are happy who we are.

My own take on this is who cares what other people label us, other peoples opinion on what I am or not labelled is of no importance to me as a person, it says F on all my official documentation, that is all that matters to me.

If someone identifies as Male, Female, Women, Man, Transsexual, Transgender or an orange, so long as they are happy with that, then so am I.

Rebecca