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What Does It Take To Cross The Gender Line?

Started by Julie Marie, February 23, 2009, 05:00:50 PM

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Julie Marie

Two people are standing in front of you, one man and one woman. 

The man is dressed in a blue pin-striped suit, light blue dress shirt, grey & black flower print tie, black dress shoes and black nylon socks.  His hair is short and parted slightly to the right of center.  He has on a gold man's watch, gold cufflinks and a handkerchief in his suit pocket.

The woman is dressed in a blue pin-striped dress suit, white blouse with lace trim at the collar and sleeves.  Her skirt stops just below the knees to reveal sheer suntan hose and black high heels.  She's wearing a grey and black flower print scarf around her neck and has a matching kerchief in the top pocket of her jacket.  She has pearl earrings, pearl necklace and a pearl bracelet.  Her hair is shoulder length and parted just right of center.  It is very full but out of her face, revealing the earrings.  She is wearing makeup typical of office standards.

Now imagine the two exchanging clothes.  All clothing exchanges will be tailored to fit the body. 

If the exchange jackets, will either be seen as crossing the gender line?
What about pants and skirt?
Blouse and shirt?
Shoes?
Hair styles, including length?
Jewelry?
Makeup?
Necktie and scarf?

How far can each go before people will see them as crossing the gender line?
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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placeholdername

I think as far as crossing the actual (or imagined/theoretical/etc) line, it comes down to two things: pants/skirt first, followed by shoes, for the man specifically.  The rest of it can be chalked up to expression of sexuality (i.e. gay/lesbian).  I think for women to cross over to the man side it's more about voice and behavior than clothing/appearance (but I'm no expert so don't hold me to that).
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Janet_Girl

Interesting, Julie.

I would think that the pants and skirt: A skirt on a man especially if he was not 'presenting', would be a crossing of the line.
And shoes:  Men cannot carry off high heels. It does take talent to walk in heels.

The others are interchangeable.  Some men wear makeup, especially typical office.

Janet

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Shana A

Unfortunately, as soon as the man wears the skirt, the line has been crossed for many people in our society. Earrings, jewelry and makeup would push the limit as well. Women can generally wear more male clothing without anyone getting bent out of shape.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Miniar

I don't know if it's just me, but to me, gender is not in clothes.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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JakeDenver

To me its not the clothes that makes a gender its the person themself and also how they present them self even if they were naked. They actually do sell such clothing items called man skirts. But to the typical conservative person the man wearing the skirt would be crossing the gender line. The women however could get away with wearing the mans clothes and the hair and still just be considered a masculine lesbian. Women can get away with wearing supposed mens clothes a lot easier then a man can wear so called womens clothes. Thats just how the world is.
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Vicky

A man wearing a skirt and tossing an 18 foot long telephone pole around for fun or whiskey has not crossed the gender line!!  Rrright McTavish????

As long as the skirt is cut to accomodate a beer belly, a man can wear it!!  I have one of that kind of skirt, and can wear it in male or female mode!!!   ;D ;D ;D  Mel Gibson got away with it once!! :laugh:

Regrettably I do have lace ruffled skirts that would be over the line if I were in male mode.  High heels?  There are men's boots with high heels, and when you smell them, they are not feminine smelling, unless you are a stallion Palomino. 

There are people who hate the boy look on girls as badly as the girl look on boys!! 

I refuse to have a war of wits with a half armed opponent!!

Wiser now about Post Op reality!!
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Janet Lynn on February 23, 2009, 05:12:29 PM
Interesting, Julie.

Men cannot carry off high heels. It does take talent to walk in heels.


Janet



Interesting thought. I thought all it took was practice, not talent. Identified men who cross dress and many, many drag performers walk about in high heels constantly and do just fine, even with 8 inch ones!! I don't see why Julie's hypothetical guy couldn't pull off high heels.

Puzzled Nichole
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MeghanAndrews

Interesting questions Julie but I don't understand what you mean by "crossing the gender line." Could you define that? Is that how the average person where you live viewing you as being female-ish or male-ish? Like if I'm in LA wearing femmish clothing and I'm seen as a fashionable guy vs. same clothes in Kansas that might get me killed? Could you clarify?
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Julie Marie

Quote from: MeghanAndrews on February 24, 2009, 12:28:31 AM
Interesting questions Julie but I don't understand what you mean by "crossing the gender line." Could you define that? Is that how the average person where you live viewing you as being female-ish or male-ish? Like if I'm in LA wearing femmish clothing and I'm seen as a fashionable guy vs. same clothes in Kansas that might get me killed? Could you clarify?

Crossing the gender line would mean the person walks out into public and most people would either think they are dressed normally for their gender or they look like they are trying to look more the opposite of their gender.  Now, we're not talking trans people.  We're talking people who are happy living in their birth gender.  This is intended to point out just how far a man can delve into the world of woman and vise-versa without the average person turning their head, rolling their eyes, etc..

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Laurry

In today's Western societies, women can wear just about anything and not be seen as cross dressing, though sometimes they may get funny looks.

As said earlier, with the exception of a kilt (and even that can be looked at as weird), a man in a skirt is not seen as "manly", even with a full beard and grease under his fingernails.  Shoes are another no-no.  There might be tall heels on those cowboy boots, but you can bet your saddle they ain't stilettos.


  • Switch Jackets?  Probably OK as long there isn't any lace or frills.
  • Blouse/Shirt?  The blouse mentioned in this example with the lace trim would be considered girlie and may cross the line.  At the very least it would be considered effeminate.
  • Hair?  OK
  • Jewelry?  A guy could get away with pearl earrings and necklace (maybe), but the bracelet probably wouldn't pass unless it were wide and macho.
  • Makeup?  I wouldn't try to get away with it at work, but as one who wears eyeshadow and mascara just about everywhere else, I do get some strange looks from folks, and thus it should be considered borderline.
  • Necktie/Scarf?  As long as you don't wear the necktie as a belt, a female would be just fine.  The scarf most likely would be a no-no for a guy (unless it looked like a western bandanna and you had on your rodeo duds).

Anyway...that's my take

....L
     
 
Ya put your right foot in.  You put your right foot out.  You put your right foot in and you shake it all about.  You do the Andro-gyney and you turn yourself around.  That's what it's all about.
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Soapyshoe

Skirt would be enough for male to cross the line.  The female could do the entire thing, and she'd still be teetering on the line.  If she cut her hair + wore the clothes and did the whole shebang, she'd still be on the gender fence.

The genetic male will be viewed as a freaky crossdresser.  Even if he manages to pull off a female voice, move correctly, etc. he will be rejected because of his muscle tone, skin tone, and his face.  Even if his makeup is flawless, he still lacks the proper fat distribution or "skin palette" underneath.  Women will react to him in fear, men will react with aggression.

The genetic female will have a more fluid outcome.  She may be viewed as an effeminate/gay male, a butch lesbian, or a female wearing men's clothing.  Her body language will strongly determine her passability.  Women will react to her with caution, men will react to her with curiosity.
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Brielle

Something I came across that I look at once in a while as food for thought.  I suppose it could be a 'to do' list, depending on how you approach things.

gender cues:

1] physical cues - body, posture, hair, clothing, voice, skin, movement, space, weight

2] behavioral cues - manners, decorum, protocol, deportment

3] textual cues - stories, histories, associates, relationships

4] power dynamics - top, bottom, entitlement/not

5] sexual orientation

I read something about the actual number of feminine gender cues that you need to have in excess of any masculine cues, before you usually can pass.   Has anyone read up on this?  I don't remember the actual numbers, but you do have to 'outweigh' the masculine in a lot of these areas before you begin to pass (supposedly).  I think there is so much variaton in people's perceptions that there really are no 'rules' per se.  I still think confidence in yourself is the biggest gender cue.  If your confidence causes someone to not take the discerning look, then you pass anyway, and that still counts as 1. (blah, blah, Ginger... I'm no expert - just throwing this in)
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cindianna_jones

Well.... even a woman's jacket has subtle feminine details.  I think that it would end right there.

But... consider this.  I wear mens athletic shoes, jeans, and a mens tee, with a mens fleece jacket.  That's what I'll be wearing to see my doc in a few minutes.  It's easier for me to dress like everyone else around here. I wear the mens athletic shoes because that's what I can buy in a non white color and I like the style.  Think anyone will notice?  Not likely. No one has yet... and I've been dressing like this in this cow town for years.

Cindi
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Julie Marie

Well, I live in a suburb just west of Chicago.  Thirty minutes from my front door I can find myself in Boystown, a very gay neighborhood.  People in Chicago aren't clueless but many act like it.

Even with a modicum of exposure to the LGBT community I can say as soon as the man wears anything the woman is wearing, he's crossed the line, even if each piece of clothing is tailored to fit him.  Maybe the jacket he can get away with but it''s doubtful.  Makeup?  Busted!  Pearl earrings?  Busted!  The gender lines here are strictly drawn for men.

The woman can wear everything the man is wearing, as long as it's tailored to fit her.

Why are the gender lines so defined for men but not for women?

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Soapyshoe

Right on Julie.

David Bowie himself couldn't even budge the Gender Line for men.

Popular thinking holds that men are the superior sex, that they have it made, etc. etc.  But that "freedom" comes at a price, namely, that masculinity is narrow and restricting should one choose to escape from it.

A lot of gender therapists I've read argue that MtF's have a harder time socially adjusting because there are very few opportunities for them to socialize until they pass reasonably well.  FtM's, in contrast, enjoy a lot of wiggle room in their expressions of masculinity.

But Julie asked, "Why are the gender lines so defined for men?"  Evolutionary psychologists probably have an answer having to do with mating, survival, and some such.

If I had to hypothesize, I would actually argue that it's cultural.  Feminism effectively widened the gender line for women...women were literally duped into becoming men during the 50's and 60's.  They started smoking cigarettes, wearing pants, cussing, behaving masculine.  Nobody consciously questions the popular culture - they accept it like a religion.  Ask a woman today if she feels self-conscious about doing "typically male stuff" and she'll just laugh at how absurd the question is.  Ask a woman from the 20's or 30's how she would feel about doing those things, and she'd tell you how silly it would be for a woman to cross the gender line.

I primarily believe that feminism gained so much force because our flailing socialist economy needed an injection of cheap labor (women) it order to stay afloat post WW2.  Breaking up the nuclear family unit is also a cornerstone of any socialist state (the State = your family, Tom Brokaw is your new father, the TV and public schools will raise the children.)

@ Brielle
Psychological models of categorization clearly favor feature multiplication rather than addition.  This means that, rather than checking off a list of features that make a person male or female, we give more credit to certain features over others.  For example, when determining whether a person is human or a mannequin, we look to whether the person is living - the existence of arms/legs/clothing will not tell us.

Faces are typically what we look to when there is gender ambiguity.  Very few women have brow bossing.  Out of the entire body, the forehead is one of the strongest cues to a person's gender.  Our brains AUTOMATICALLY determine a person's gender before we're even conscious of the classification.  So rather than spend 20-30 seconds mulling it over, our brains just take shortcuts and favor the evidence from a few statistically-relevant pieces of data.  The way a person walks, moves, and talks is also a massive indicator.

Another way of thinking about it: some guys have manboobs, and some girls have big noses or wide chins, but almost no girls have brow bossing, and almost no guys have a truly effeminate walk (even the gay ones).

How would you classify this person: no brow bossing and smooth forehead, somewhat wide and bumpy nose with no upturn, medium-width and height chin, female clothing, clunky gender neutral walk.  A lot of people would probably think it was an unattractive woman.
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Brielle

QuoteThe woman can wear everything the man is wearing, as long as it's tailored to fit her.
Why are the gender lines so defined for men but not for women?
Julie

I believe it's because the gender lines are defined though media which is controlled by men.  Why would the men in control choose this?  I can only guess - Because it's sexy.  Because they want to sell more men's clothes. Because they want to appropriate the female image.  Because the world is round? 

The machine obtains a manufactured consent.  I believe all consensus in manufactured through media.  It's fairly accessible for journalists to discern who manufactured the vote on Prop 8 for example, but who is in the upper levels pulling the strings - the ones we never hear of and never identify.  Who manufactures our deeper perceptions over decades and decades, dictates our needs, and dangles the carrot of self-actualization? 

Sorry if this seems off topic, but I believe manufactured consent is the root.

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V M

What does it take to cross the gender line?

One foot in front of the other  :laugh:
The main things to remember in life are Love, Kindness, Understanding and Respect - Always make forward progress

Superficial fanny kissing friends are a dime a dozen, a TRUE FRIEND however is PRICELESS


- V M
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Soapyshoe

Quote from: Brielle on February 24, 2009, 10:32:25 PM
I believe it's because the gender lines are defined though media which is controlled by men. 

Absolutely.  If men were allowed to be effeminate, perhaps we wouldn't need to go to war?  We'd all just chill out, enjoy ourselves, and love each other.
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