Matters, yet isn't supposed to

[Furanshisu]

Hmm... okay, I get confusing feelings about this stuff. Yes, gender is technically not supposed to matter, but kind of does, but probably not so much as I let it make me think sometimes. I know I'm supposed to reject labels and all, but at this point, I am looking for something to ground myself. Even my Mom had gender issues (but she never changed appearance so much and just decided to feel fluidly whatever, which I feel like ideally I should feel, but I want something different) and I get the gender-is-a-spectrum speil, which I also got from my counselor (I've been going to that place for over a year, and I first went to get checked for OCD -which I have mostly of the ruminating thoughts kind- but even when the diagnosis was originally depression, I suspected OCD for years but didn't think I had enough requirements, but after some battling with my bf over whether I would just be wasting the counselors' time, I did go. So far now its OCD and I had felt such a relief that I had been right and I felt validated because could put a name to it and it wasn't just "all in my head" (well, in the fake way I mean, whatever that would be)

So I kind of feel that way about the androgyny thing- that I need validation that I'm real, beyond just the well some females feel masculine at times and some males feel feminine blah blah, because that makes an other category pointless, yet I feel the need to identify that way- feels different. I've run through the scenarios, and it seems a lot more difficult to sort these things out if you were raised "female" (from that perspective I mean, as my parents weren't into making me into anything I wasn't) not only because of so much male/unisex clothes, but also I got scared of all those ideas floating around about evil patriarchies and discrimination and disadvantage that I just really wanted to avoid them and psychologically escape the pain thinking of them can cause, that I worried if that all it was, but its not, just makes it more irritatingly confusing.

I wrote a character named Francis, who made an androgynous teen from the dead, and one of the teen friends is a girl who questions her gender because of the androgyne friend. We did a play of it at my Uni, and I went in drag as Francis- my favorite role. Donning my orange wig, I'd ramble and record monologs alone, and eventually developed his past, that he was found and raised by his sister to be her baby sister. Though he went back to being seen as a feminine male (the audience took it to be a flip-flopping satire of traditional roles), he grew incredibly feminine when I played him, to the point where I'd lie on my bed doing sexy feminine poses in drag, and in general took lots of photos in drag, a few in double-drag. I'd prance and talk either neurotic or sexy. I got confused. I did some general drag before, but when I dressed like a male (with the intent that is, doesn't mean it looked quite that way) I'd get so excited I'd prance and giggle like a school girl!! And that weirded me out, how I'd come to identify so much, looking like a female yet identifying with a man who seems to want to be a woman, even if I created them. If that was math, it'd cancel out, leaving me happy with my insides and outs, but its not that simple, but I'm not sure if that means its my problem or not?

I know there are many things to freely enjoy looking female, and reading so much about how precious such things can be to many transgendered people highlights it even more for me- a bigger variety of imaginative clothes and make up and hair stuff, although I did that to a limited extent mid high school and earlier, but I can't now, despite my interest in making costumes and art. Its just not me anymore no matter what my label (xept a little nail polish, but that's cuz I like the color changing!). See, I can get all excited and "girly" and I display many fitting characteristics of the non-surface type like wearing my emotions on my sleeve, but its not like I'm very masculine either, though I know there's that whole "just stereotypes" thing that makes it confusing. I get the intuitive energy-feeling thing- I feel that I've felt male, female, and neuter energies in me- but I felt more like neither, but I'm not sure if I'm kidding myself because I don't like the things hard-core feminists would bring up on bad treatment/representation of females by the supposedly evil Man, or my trauma of being the only one in the group not being allowed to take my shirt off in the hot sun when I was 4, or maybe fear of being made to wear a skirt again in a job someday, or wanting acceptance in the making of all kinds of friends, or to get over fear of being fragile-looking, or to feel different and special, or to cover up other bigger worries about the future, etc.- I went through a lot of possibilities to figure out what it "really" might be, but its a lot of things, not clearcut.

I'm confused. Yes, its not supposed to matter, but for purposes of feeling that I'm not deluding myself, I want to be doubtless about being an androgyne and that its not pointless for identifying that way just because its little recognized as an legitimate identity ouside of the TG community and it doesn't seem to make any headliners in progress like gay/TS/or intersex issues would. I feel lousy about that- I feel like I'm the only one that I know that this is important to- like its so not important in general that there's nothing to "come out" to or about because it won't really change or do anything (which is supposed to be a good thing), certainly not pronouns (they'll still use what they always have, and if I try to get them to use any others, I feel like a goofy overly politically-correct wannabe) or my neuter name (except my middle one, but when do those come up?). They say to just be yourself, but just being myself won't get me the top surgery I've been wanting since I don't have GID! Or is that possible anyway? I don't know. I'm supposed to just tolerate my stupid boobs just in case I change my mind later, and that makes me annoyed. I feel strange that a lot of people feeling androgynous and recommending not worrying about your body and to "just be yourself" come from backgrounds involving transsexual surgeries or hormones, so of course they can feel more androgynous/flexible because they've legitimately spent time in both roles, and their anatomy is at least a bit androgynous, even if they're the only ones that know it, whereas I've not passed much nor do I feel comfortable either way, and my anatomy is clear and obvious-not matching my inner sense- or did I just train myself that way?, so I feel kind of fake- going right back to why appearance gets involved rather than just feeling a little different day to day.

I'm not sure what my point is besides wondering how can one feel confident in their own feelings in such matters when they get blurry, and how can I feel okay that this is important, even if only to me, and that it matters in some way so it can't just be dismissed away as idealistic fancy?

[Casey]

I'm still on my own journey so I can only tell you what I've learned so far. How I feel and see things today may not be how I feel and see things tomorrow. So this shouldn't be taken as The Gender Gospel According To Casey.

Gender doesn't matter in terms of how I see you. I should be no more or less inclined to hire you, ask for your advice, say 'hi', or anything like that because of your gender. And your gender should not stop you from doing some things, nor should it force you to do other things. It's the same way with labels.

Now, that's a separate thing from having an identity. I think that's what is mattering to you. (Poor grammar on my part but you know what I mean.) And it is important to have an identity. If you can put that identity into a concrete word like androgyne then it does help to feel like this is all very real and not in your head. There is a very real peace of mind that comes from being able to say "I am {whatever}."

I found that the very first identity I needed to have was "me". That's how you know you're not crazy, that this isn't all just some delusion you've come up with somehow. Having an identity of "me" validates all the things you are, all the things you feel. All other identities I have (transgendered in the umbrella sense, transgendered in the somewhere-between-CD-and-TS sense, genderqueer) are all derived from that "me" identity. Therefore all those identities are real and meaningful. Any identity you have that derives from that "me" identity is certainly not meaningless no matter how unimportant is seems in the bigger scheme of (TG) things.

I know this doesn't cover all the points you made. But if you'll keep talking I'll keep listening and helping whenever I can.

[Kendall]

Yes, gender is technically not supposed to matter, but kind of does, but probably not so much as I let it make me think sometimes.

Matters of gender, both expression and identity are very important. This and other sites are built because it is so important.

I agree with Casey in that it shouldnt matter however in places such as in the workplace or receiving professional help and services (medical, governmental, social, educational, bank/financial, insurance, etc).

As for labels, I think they are important.  I think most of the members here found their way here either from recommendation from someone else or through surfing for things on the net relating to themselves. Using keywords based on labels TG, CD, TS, GC, IG, etc... Common labels, though have a inherent evil in that they shouldnt dictate the details in your life, do help build communities (which also have great good, as well as some bad results). In some cases even, labels in medical and psychology field can lead to proper medicines. Transsexuals are required to be diagnosed GID before receiving the proper treatments such as hormones and srs. Imagine getting labelled with something like cancer, treatment is vital.

I think labels can be used for the good as long as one stays true to themselves while exploring the richness of life (both the good and the bad). And find out what one likes, dislikes, or is interested in.

Validation is important sometimes. I know what you mean about not wanting to feel crazy or in your head. Using another different unrelated example. I felt sick last year with respiratory, body aches, nausea, and numbness in hands and feet. I went to the doctor twice and they couldnt find out what was wrong with me. Not receiving a diagnosis, was sort of like made me feel weird in that I felt I needed a diagnosis to know what to do to fix it, and also a sense that there was something offically wrong with me. The first thing my boss asked when I got back to work (after eventually feeling better) was, so what was wrong with you? There are endless cases where not having a illness diagnosed in time leads to even death.

The APA as to Genderqueer doesnt officially recognize have it labelled in their DSM-IV. They do have a category called NOS (Not otherwise specified). GQ is broad and not narrowly defined. Some may fall under other labels as well. And some fluid gender may move around and change constantly.

They say to just be yourself, but just being myself won't get me the top surgery I've been wanting since I don't have GID! Or is that possible anyway? I don't know. I'm supposed to just tolerate my stupid boobs just in case I change my mind later, and that makes me annoyed. I feel strange that a lot of people feeling androgynous and recommending not worrying about your body and to "just be yourself" come from backgrounds involving transsexual surgeries or hormones, so of course they can feel more androgynous/flexible because they've legitimately spent time in both roles, and their anatomy is at least a bit androgynous, even if they're the only ones that know it, whereas I've not passed much nor do I feel comfortable either way, and my anatomy is clear and obvious-not matching my inner sense- or did I just train myself that way?, so I feel kind of fake- going right back to why appearance gets involved rather than just feeling a little different day to day

If it feels fake dont do it. Appearance is important though for some. Some that feel that their identity is a certain way, and that their outside should match their inside. To other, appearance might not have anything to do with it. It may be more of about just thinking, communication, behaving, not so much about being, or becoming.

[Furanshisu]

I guess its not so much anything I'm doing, but the ways I'm thinking- how I feel about things. I wear what I wear without trying anything, cept for the bandana, which is mostly pants and shirts, and I let people call me what they want, but whatever the pronouns, it makes me slightly uncomfortable (I enjoyed 'he' occasionally, until I was mistaken for a child while having dinner with my fiance, and then there was that mechanic who thought I looked familiar and was trying to figure out "who's son" I was and I didn't know what to say because I didn't want to admit who/what I was or lie either), but I'm not gonna make people make up new ones, because that'd feel artificial/fake or over-doing it too, not that I ever tried.

And I don't know if it even exactly matters to me right now- I had to make the decision to put my unexpectedly ill cat to sleep (some perspective I guess), and I've got to finish some stuff preparing for my last year of college. I don't know. I sort of want this to bother me so I can get somewhere, but maybe I'm just hanging onto some kind of transient definition for myself (or of others) unnecesarily- which wouldn't exactly affect me much as my emotions are always on my sleeve, which prevents me from ever genuinely being fake. but right now I feel like it might not be as important (where I am) as I thought, not that it might not be, since I mean I'm still thinking about it. Maybe that means I've accepted it, or that I don't need to worry about it right now, or maybe I'm just trying to force something concrete but don't feel like it right now cuz I've got things to do. I don't know... too sleepy.

[Nero]

My condolences on the loss of your cat. I had to put one down years ago, and still haven't fully recovered. I miss her.

From what I understand, Furanshisu, you're androgyne or genderqueer?
May I ask - do you feel more male or more female or is it 50/50?
I'm not really familiar with the dynamics of being genderqueer, but if you tend to lean more one way, then maybe you'll be more comfortable in a more "male presentation" or vice versa if you feel more female.

Nero

[Mario]

Furanshisu,
        Wow. You are giving it alot of thought, so that tells me you need an answer. Labels. I have to admit I am one to use them. Probally too much. The only thing that I can put a finger on that you said is your comment about your boobs. They are the epitomy on being female. If you don't want them, there is a reason for that. That is an indicater that you are not completly happy with your body. You don't have to be labeled just transsexual to have top surgery. Maybe you have GID but are also one of the other labels needing you to identify your sexual oriantation? I don't know. But I would think the GID term is a bit broader than just wanting a sex change or not. Believe me, it was all very confusing to me learning all the different types of transsexuals. Here I thought if you were trans, you got a sex change to be with now what will be the oppisite sex. A bit narrow minded I was. I HAVE learned alot, and owe it all to this website. Just ask yourself what will make you happyv with yourself mentally and physically?

                                                Marco

[Kendall]

sorry about your cat. Yes your final year in college is a big year. Have to make sure you get all the requirements and enough credits.

[Furanshisu]

Yeah, finishing stuff and the cat made me sort of "let go of it", but it came back last night because I was trying to think of a costume I could do for a temp job at a haunted house I got, and I couldn't help but gravitate right back to Francis, albeit a modified zombie version  > But again, this is a female playing a man who acts female, so it seems like a double-negative, but I really don't want it to be. It has made me suspicious that this androgyny thing for me has more than I want to do with escaping all that 2nd class-citizen stuff people talk about about females, which freaked me out because I kind of get it- that feeling of weird subtle messages about all those "dangerous" men who beat steal kill or rape seemed out to get you if you left the house past sundown, them and their big evil da-da-dummmmm!  :oPatriarchy oooh and the ever-popular "objectification", and the fact of telling myself that if what they said about wage gaps was true (my bf is a business major and said that it was contrary to popular belief averaged from there still being more house-wives than -husbands), then maybe I could pass as male to make sure I get all my money or so they wouldn't make me wear a stupid skirt because I like ties and refuse to wear a woman's skirt-suit after that lousy restaurant job! But trying to escape feminist paranoia (I'm prone to exaggerated fears) and being worried that I wouldn't be able to have good male friends (not that I really had much friends in college) because they might treat me different and/or I might act different out of fear of... (egotistical, I know).. someone else falling in love with me or vice versa, which would be bad as I'm attached and got really screwed up by my parents surprise amicable divorce when I was 18 because they fell in love with their friends- but I already faced that fire when I almost dumped my one and only bf (of 5 years) for this androgynous-seeming hippie. Ooh I hated him so much!! How dare he prance around in his long hair, free to swim in the pond topless because he didn't have stupid boobs like me...

I feel bad because I get angry that so much discussion on various transgender/androgyne topics is so m2f oriented that I still get all those weird feminist thoughts swirling in my head and making me feel spitefully hypocritical!    I have anger problems I guess, but I guess a lot of this has focused on my boobs because of the experience of when I was 4 and I think I was at preschool or something, but I was the only one not allowed to take my shirt off outside on that hot hot day while everyone else in that memory (I'm not sure about accuracy in such an old memory) did because they were boys, and if that doesn't send some kind of inferior freak message... It boils me some times, and at others I've just pushed it down because I'm supposed to try to decrease my anxiety and "let go" (I hate that phrase), but many times I've seen those jerks walking around like its no big thing because they're so damn safe being half naked in front of everyone, I just want to punch 'em! Counter-productive, huh?

So I feel like there's a fork in the road- a) do nothing but complain and get angry, maybe make some art and hope it changes something. b) find some kind of woman group and get some feminist protest thing, which would take more work than I want and probably just make it hurt more if there was rejection, and the idea of woman groups seem kinda sexist. I don't want to be a world-saving activist, I just want to move on to a good adult life and send my messages through art/writing c) get mine cut off, but that won't be helping other people or making any significant social progress (for myself or others), so I guess that could be an act of fear of socializing or failiure on my part. d) "get over it". well I don't want to. I guess I've made a bit of identity of it for better or worse.  I'm not so sure what I want, and it seems unavoidable to talk about gender w/o going back to stereotypes. I can get very emotional in a counter-productive way, and in a stereotypical sense, that doesn't help. I naturally feel kind of weak- I am small, but I'm told that I'm very strong in heart. I don't want identifying androgyne for me to be contaminated by fear of all those misogynist boogiemen you hear about ala the news. Though I do want to relate to all kinds of people too. I don't know. It seems like such a social issue, and shouldn't identity be a bit separate as in one isn't supposed to care what others think? I guess it can't be so separated, realistically.

Thinking about really wanting validation for being an androgyne can get obsessive. Its not that I have GID, except earlier when I was examining such a possibility I did wish I could have the genetalia of both (but Freud already coined "penis-envy" so that doesn't look good for me, seeming I guess misogynist?) and thought to myself if they did such operations successfully I'd do it. But thinking and acting are totally different things. I'd examine myself just to see if there was something of even the tiniest detail that could prove maybe I was both, but of course there was none. Or earlier than that I wondered if there was any way to meditate in a way to increase testosterone or something. But these thoughts have happened only in the past few years. When I was a kid I'd never want short hair because I didn't want to look "like a boy". I guess I basically want validation, like when I turned out to be right about having OCD after all. But I don't know what the point is, since I hear how much that people are flexible nowadays and crap.

I get kind of mad because so many others seem to have a so much clearer idea of themselves, like classic TS's and stuff, or again even male androgynes (isn't it ironic how even the androgynes can get divided like that when it comes to past histories? kinda creepy) seem to have it easier to figure out if they're crossing the middle, as the whole girls wear pants and often play sports too and do the same sorts of things as guys now makes it a lot harder because instead of an androgyne, you'll just get something like "oh, you're a strong independant woman", and I like androgyne better, but maybe I'm not really androgynous, but to dissect that too much makes it all dissolve, which is supposed to be the point, but I'm, as people like to point out, "still young..." and trying to figure myself out and all, so that means I do want some labels to work off of.

Speaking of, I've tried to see what people see in dressing female. I'm confused. The clothes seem more creative and interesting and fun, and in high school I enjoyed them to a moderate extent because I was pleased with my trim form, and I can see why people would like to beautify themselves, but I just can't do that anymore. I feel like I should appreciate such "female priviledge" (as in getting no crap for dressing any way I want), but I don't that that much- only if I have to do costuming, but I feel like I'm throwing away something others really want. maybe that means I want to be a petty rebel or different (which has always equalled "special" to me, and seemed to be treated as better in my upbringing because my mom felt "different". Then I realized dividing people like that was childish.). My mom became a hermit for awhile lurking on gay newsgroups (she seemed to have depression and/or social phobia before the divorce) not because she was gay, but could somehow relate to them, and still did when starting clubbing later. Mom had some gender issues too, but not as much as mine and was satisfied with thinking of herself as "gender fluid" and looking pretty female, which I'm not doing. But I heard a lot from mom about gay people and injustice, and I remember sometimes I felt bad that I was hetero (I guess, I've only had one lover) because I felt like I was just another jerk in some big evil majority oppressor group and I was ashamed. I have that issue about race too... like its weird how women and blacks get compared a lot in terms of civil rights and equality issues, so as white and female, I kind of get both sides- I resent demonization of light skin color because of the evil things other stupid people have done, so I have to be paranoid that I never offend anyone and I have to feel like I'm part of some bad oppressor just because of my color and that I just want to go about my own life for now and am not an activist of some sort. But I also get feminist (things heard generally, not an overt topic I study) talk of subtle -isms because yeah sexy ladies on TV and all and subtle double-standard messages over time which people like to deny. It all gets maddening, and over all I'm so dichotomous within myself and sometimes contradictory, its weird.

Sorry, long, but in summation, how does one sort this stuff from being a wannabe or scared by talk of evil patriarchy and privilege, or that how do I tell when females can get away with so much in the androgyny department? And why do I keep caring? Its like I'll find any reason to keep it alive in me. I also get mad that lots of people that say so simply to "be yourself" and claim androgyny for themselves have been down the transexual route- they have physical traits to back their stance and/or have been in both social positions legitimately, so either way it seems more real than that time I said to my bf long ago that I thought I was androgynous inside, not a girl, because labels can be given and taken, but not so easily with the body. So coming from people that were qualified and dysphoric enough to actually get hormones or surgery, what does that mean to unaltered questioning me except that since its "the inside that counts" as people like to say, then that feels like a push not change or to just "get over it" and not fuss over the label I've been given since I must not want it enough. Ugh. Maybe its a symptom of wanting change in a time of my life too slowly transistioning to my adulthood too.  ugh.