just so you know..What is a Woman Born Transsexual?

[Natasha]

She is someone who was born with a condition that has been called by a number of different names.  Commonly called transsexualism with HBS or Harry Benjamin Syndrome growing in popularity among some people who have come to view the term transsexualism as carrying too much baggage.

Woman born transsexual or WBT is a political statement of self definition, a declaration of independence from the suffocation of the overly crowded big tent of the "Transgender Community."

We often share common oppressions but we are not the same.  Particularly true of those of us who have completed Sex Reassignment Surgery.  Indeed most often our sharing of community tends to be during a period of transition with those of us who have SRS leaving that big tent to assimilate into the world of women.

more here.

[Gracie Faise]

We need social change and understanding. Semantics are not going to do that, working with social movements like the LGBT, even if our struggle is not the same as others, in order to achieve what we need.

One day we will be fully recognized and treated as what we really are, men and women with a medical complication. But until then, we still need to work with other people.


Making up new terms and words to call yourself outside of transsexualism isn't making people accept you quicker. It's just confusing people.

[Susan]

Woman born transsexual or WBT is a political statement of self definition, a declaration of independence from the suffocation of the overly crowded big tent of the "Transgender Community."

And when you separate from the pack the wolves can pick you off one by one. Anyone who thinks differently is an idiot. The progress we made has come because of the attachment to the GLBT community, not in spite of it. We are not a visible community and as such the politicians think so what. So keep listening to people like Katia, and become a sheep at the mercy of the rightwing wolves.  I will point out this is a Transgender support site, and if you don't agree with being under that umbrella then perhaps you should find another web site more to your liking.


This is to be considered the end of HBS, WBW, WBT, and any other combination of discussion there of if it involves seperating one aspect of our community from the rest.

[Renate]

Was I born a woman? I don't know.
Was I a woman before transition? I don't know.
Am I happier as a woman now? Yes, I do know that for certain.

Socially, I am just another woman.
Politically, I am a transsexual.

[BunnyBee]

They say the difference between gender and sex is that gender is a social construction, and sex is a physiological one. It seems to me some people defy gender/sex norms because of reasons related to gender while others for reasons related to sex, and I think there is a distinction between the two which is significant.

It seems there are some who take on the appearance of a woman as an expression of their femininity (this is an MTF zone, so I'll stick with assuming that is my audience, it's simpler.)  For them, I guess it's not so much they feel as though they are a woman per se, but that they are feminine beings who need to express their gender this way.  You also have the people (maybe they are the same people) who talk about rainbows and spectrums and being gender outlaws and who hate the concept of sex being binary.  These are people dealing with issues of gender identity, and I never actually realized they existed till I read these boards for a while.

Peeps in the other group are experiencing conflict with their sex, not so much their gender.  This is the group I find myself in, as I truly have no conflict whatsoever with my gender identity.  I have problems with the gender role I'm expected to play in society, and I have problems with my body being wrong, my identity however is fine.  I don't dress in women's clothes to express my femininity, I dress in women's clothes because that's what women do, etc.

All this business of spectrums and rainbows is cool and all I guess, and maybe such a thing does exists as it relates to sex, but the condition I am dealing with absolutely conforms to the gender binary norm.  I have no desire to be placed into a 3rd or 4th or 8th sex category.  I mean it's fine if that's how somebody else feels they should be categorized, but I don't want to be included in the crusade.

I was born a girl (your brain is who you are after all) with the wrong body, so I consider this a purely physiological disorder.  As such, it should not be called "gender identity disorder."  If you must call it something, it should be called "sex identity disorder" ..I guess.  I would actually consider this to be a form of intersex (of the brain) more than anything else.

There clearly is nothing wrong with any of the expressions or conditions in the spectrum of gender/sex identity.  We do all face similar issues, both sides may even benefit from SRS for all I know.  Anyway, our similar trials do make it possible for us all to be able to offer each other support.  I think the idea of breaking away from the "umbrella" is pure silliness.  Together we are still a small group and wield very little clout, which is why we should take whatever help the gay community may offer as well.

It doesn't hurt to understand there are some fundamental differences between people, even if they convene under the same "tent" as you say, though it is naive to think society will ever see you as a woman, no strings attached, in your lifetime.  Even though that is exactly what you are.

[Gracie Faise]

Actually Jen it's known that gender is, in part, biological. Which is why trans individuals are the way they are. Their mind is biologically gendered towards a sex that is not physiologically their own.

[BunnyBee]

Actually Jen it's known that gender is, in part, biological. Which is why trans individuals are the way they are. Their mind is biologically gendered towards a sex that is not physiologically their own.

I'm sure it's true, which clearly a muddies things ..clearly muddies, lol.

Anyway, I identify internally as a woman and my conflict is with my body.  I don't feel like my femininity, or the inability to express it, really is a part of the conflict I feel.  I could be wrong though.

[Gracie Faise]

I'm sure it's true, which clearly a muddies things ..clearly muddies, lol.

Anyway, I identify internally as a woman and my conflict is with my body.  I don't feel like my femininity, or the inability to express it, really is a part of the conflict I feel.  I could be wrong though.

No, I agree with you. The conflict is not with your gender. That is what the reparative therapists want you to think. The problem is with your body, which is fixed thanks to HRT and surgery (or at least close enough for most.)

[BunnyBee]

Btw... where I got all this stuff from is I was helping my sister with her gender class she is taking in college (to understand me better.. awe ) and whoever wrote her textbook is of the opinion gender is constructed completely by social means, even by it's very definition.  They went on and on about how gender is taught/learned etc. I had a hard time going along with a lot of it though, as I have seen babies in action.  This is something I've just been thinking about anyway.

[Gracie Faise]

Btw... where I got all this stuff from is I was helping my sister with her gender class she is taking in college (to understand me better.. awe ) and whoever wrote her textbook is of the opinion gender is constructed completely by social means, even by it's very definition.  They went on and on about how gender is taught/learned etc. I had a hard time going along with a lot of it though, as I have seen babies in action.  This is something I've just been thinking about anyway.

Is it an old book? Those ideas were perpetuated by second wave feminists, and have pretty much been debunked in the 90s. As far as I know, that is.

If it was purely taught, then David Reimer would have accepted that he was a girl and not, long story short, kill himself after showing signs female-to-male transsexuals show.

Also, many transsexuals were raised in extremely heteronormative homes. Saying gender is only taught would basically be saying that transsexualism is not legitimate, that it is a choice to feel the way we feel, which is false.

[BunnyBee]

Ya, and he is not the only one either.  There are a lot of assertions made in the book which are based on pretty flawed logic and I mean to bring it up with the Prof, but the whole thing got me thinking about some things I've read here at Susan's which I didn't totally understand at the time.

To clarify my thinking, let me put it like this.  Let's pretend there is a society where masculinity and femininity are switched, so it is considered manly to be nurturing and emotionally expressive, and feminine to be competitive and strong, etc.

I believe in such a society I would find myself trying to be competitive etc. b/c I would identify with the females and want to blend in with them, where I think there are others on these forums who would just fit in with such a world and no longer have conflict because it's now socially acceptable to express their gender as they would naturally.

Just my crackpot theory, which basically would make the issue of gender and sex all the more complicated if it were correct.

And sadly no, it is not an old book.  The latest edition is Copyright 2008 and the first edition was after the instance you spoke of.

[placeholdername]

To be honest, I don't think the issue of gender as social or biological is as important as we make it out to be.  Let's consider the two possiblities:

biological:  some people are born with female gendered brain and male anatomy (or vice versa) and so are 'transexual'

social:  if gender is socially constructed then it means any person is free to reconstruct their own gender.  If some who were born with male anatomy find themselves more comfortable expressing a 'female' gender, then there's nothing wrong with that.

So either way, whether gender is biological or social, the fact is there are people like us who want to assume the role of the opposite gender from which we were born as (or somewhere in the middle for either part, for androgynes/intersex).  That's the reality, the causes of the situation matter less than what we do about it.  The only real reason to 'figure out' the cause is for non-trans people to feel more comfortable with what seems like such a gross violation of the gender roles.  But what does it matter what they think in the end?

[Gracie Faise]

To be honest, I don't think the issue of gender as social or biological is as important as we make it out to be.  Let's consider the two possiblities:

biological:  some people are born with female gendered brain and male anatomy (or vice versa) and so are 'transexual'

social:  if gender is socially constructed then it means any person is free to reconstruct their own gender.  If some who were born with male anatomy find themselves more comfortable expressing a 'female' gender, then there's nothing wrong with that.

So either way, whether gender is biological or social, the fact is there are people like us who want to assume the role of the opposite gender from which we were born as (or somewhere in the middle for either part, for androgynes/intersex).  That's the reality, the causes of the situation matter less than what we do about it.  The only real reason to 'figure out' the cause is for non-trans people to feel more comfortable with what seems like such a gross violation of the gender roles.  But what does it matter what they think in the end?

It does matter. If it was social, and free to change as we wish, then that would mean reparative therapy works (it doesn't) and that we shouldn't transition, we should just stop being freaks and not mutilate our bodies. Because why should we go through such agony if we could simply reconstruct ourselves away from it? It just doesn't add up.

[placeholdername]

It does matter. If it was social, and free to change as we wish, then that would mean reparative therapy works (it doesn't) and that we shouldn't transition, we should just stop being freaks and not mutilate our bodies. Because why should we go through such agony if we could simply reconstruct ourselves away from it? It just doesn't add up.

But that's what I mean about not caring what other people think.  If gender is constructed and you are born male, but you find being female more appealing, then you can reconstruct as female and there's nothing wrong with that.

The idea behind reparative therapy is that reconstructing as a different gender is a 'bad' thing and so the therapy is supposed to help the female-identifying individual reconstruct as male because they 'should' be male (or vice versa).  But in a world where we acknowledge gender as socially constructed, there's no need to see this gender-crossing as a problem in the first place.

The 'mutilation' thing doesn't hold water either -- how many women every years 'mutliate' themselves with breast implants, chin jobs, nose jobs, tummy tucks, liposuction etc, all to conform to a socially constructed idea of attractiveness?

I'm not saying that I'm for one view or the other, but just that from the perspective of our community's internal perception, it doesn't matter as much as we think it does.   Social or biological, there really isn't anything wrong with having one set of anatomy and wanting to construct a gender role that doesn't 'match'.

[iminadaze]

I truly have no conflict whatsoever with my gender identity.  I have problems with the gender role I'm expected to play in society, and I have problems with my body being wrong, my identity however is fine.  I don't dress in women's clothes to express my femininity, I dress in women's clothes because that's what women do, etc...

....I was born a girl (your brain is who you are after all) with the wrong body, so I consider this a purely physiological disorder.  As such, it should not be called "gender identity disorder."  If you must call it something, it should be called "sex identity disorder" ..I guess.  I would actually consider this to be a form of intersex (of the brain) more than anything else.

Ditto 

[Gracie Faise]

But that's what I mean about not caring what other people think.  If gender is constructed and you are born male, but you find being female more appealing, then you can reconstruct as female and there's nothing wrong with that.

The idea behind reparative therapy is that reconstructing as a different gender is a 'bad' thing and so the therapy is supposed to help the female-identifying individual reconstruct as male because they 'should' be male (or vice versa).  But in a world where we acknowledge gender as socially constructed, there's no need to see this gender-crossing as a problem in the first place.

The 'mutilation' thing doesn't hold water either -- how many women every years 'mutliate' themselves with breast implants, chin jobs, nose jobs, tummy tucks, liposuction etc, all to conform to a socially constructed idea of attractiveness?

I'm not saying that I'm for one view or the other, but just that from the perspective of our community's internal perception, it doesn't matter as much as we think it does.   Social or biological, there really isn't anything wrong with having one set of anatomy and wanting to construct a gender role that doesn't 'match'.

Transition isn't an isolated phenomenon. If everybody thinks you're crazy and won't allow you to transition, then you won't be able to. You won't have access to the supplies and services required to do it.

Other cosmetic surgeries that you're listing only enhance, not change. There is a big difference.

And you have to care what others think. What specific people (like the psychologists that label you and box you into certain definitions, that the rest of the world will use as guidelines to decide whether you're legitimate or just a crazy person) think, so that you can tell them why they're wrong or why you're right. So you can be free to correct your body.

[imaz]

And when you separate from the pack the wolves can pick you off one by one. Anyone who thinks differently is an idiot. The progress we made has come because of the attachment to the GLBT community, not in spite of it. We are not a visible community and as such the politicians think so what. So keep listening to people like Katia, and become a sheep at the mercy of the rightwing wolves.  I will point out this is a Transgender support site, and if you don't agree with being under that umbrella then perhaps you should find another web site more to your liking.


This is to be considered the end of HBS, WBW, WBT, and any other combination of discussion there of if it involves seperating one aspect of our community from the rest.

Couldn't agree more, not only is it divisive but downright offensive and elitist.

Thank you.

[Beyond]

But that's what I mean about not caring what other people think.  If gender is constructed and you are born male, but you find being female more appealing, then you can reconstruct as female and there's nothing wrong with that.

I agree with Gracie.  To us gender is NOT a conscious decision or something that is "more appealing".  Our gender just IS.

The idea behind reparative therapy is that reconstructing as a different gender is a 'bad' thing and so the therapy is supposed to help the female-identifying individual reconstruct as male because they 'should' be male (or vice versa).  But in a world where we acknowledge gender as socially constructed, there's no need to see this gender-crossing as a problem in the first place.

Wrong again.  Due to some ill-timed hormonal wash (or one that didn't take) transsexual people come into the world with brain already gendered, and gendered opposite of the body they occupy.  Non-transsexual brains are also gendered prenatally, but their brains match the bodies they are in.  Socialization only builds (or clashes in transsexual people) on that innate gendering.

For more info on the biology of transsexualism:

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html#anchor107763

The 'mutilation' thing doesn't hold water either -- how many women every years 'mutliate' themselves with breast implants, chin jobs, nose jobs, tummy tucks, liposuction etc, all to conform to a socially constructed idea of attractiveness?

They are chasing the Beauty Myth.  That has nothing to do with a birth condition like transsexualism.

I'm not saying that I'm for one view or the other, but just that from the perspective of our community's internal perception, it doesn't matter as much as we think it does.   Social or biological, there really isn't anything wrong with having one set of anatomy and wanting to construct a gender role that doesn't 'match'.

It does matter.  I strongly identify as female and that includes a body map that calls for, as my friend would say, "female peripherals".  It's the reason way I felt normal (whatever that means) after surgery (both FFS and SRS).  My dysphoria effectively disappeared 16 months ago.  And this is a feeling that I share with my post-op sisters.

Couldn't agree more, not only is it divisive but downright offensive and elitist.

It is not elitist to state what is a reality for us.  What you want if for us to say we're all the same and that is a fallacy.  If we're all the same why does Susan's have like 20 different forums?  You're trying to force us under an umbrella that we don't feel comfortable in and comments like those above highlight why.  Because our experience is different.  This is always a problem in a spectrum like forum, transsexuals get bullied.  And when we stand up for ourselves we're called "elitist".

[Mister]

It is not elitist to state what is a reality for us.  What you want if for us to say we're all the same and that is a fallacy.  If we're all the same why does Susan's have like 20 different forums?  You're trying to force us under an umbrella that we don't feel comfortable in and comments like those above highlight why.  Because our experience is different.  This is always a problem in a spectrum like forum, transsexuals get bullied.  And when we stand up for ourselves we're called "elitist".

This. 

[imaz]

It is not elitist to state what is a reality for us.  What you want if for us to say we're all the same and that is a fallacy.  If we're all the same why does Susan's have like 20 different forums?  You're trying to force us under an umbrella that we don't feel comfortable in and comments like those above highlight why.  Because our experience is different.  This is always a problem in a spectrum like forum, transsexuals get bullied.  And when we stand up for ourselves we're called "elitist".

Just imagine you were talking about ethnicity in the same manner...

One question: What would that make you?

Answer: I'll give you a clue: it's a six letter word...