Topic banned

[NicholeW.]

OMG!

As if the HBS v. TG topic wasn't bad enough now we've opened the English v. Australians can of worms!

<...hums Indonesia Raya to herself and looks disparagingly south...>

I often think that we humans are so desperate to feel better about ourselves that we will disparage most anyone to attempt to make our desire reality.

[Sandy]

I often think that we humans are so desperate to feel better about ourselves that we will disparage most anyone to attempt to make our desire reality.

It always comes down to "us vs them".

Is that as inbuilt to the human condition as gender identity?

Please, Goddess, no.

-Sandy

[SusanK]

If the trans labels and your history have no relevance to you whatsoever I have to ask why are you here?  You're on the one hand participating in a forum that offers a service to a certain subset of women while claiming no connection to that subset.

Because I'm here for other matters of support, but you're right, if the label would get me health coverage and other benefits we've long deserved, fine, they can use it to define me as long as they don't deny me or discriminate against me. But they don't cover the costs and they won't stop the discrimination and hate, so in reality it's almost a useless label.

It only goes to show that wanting to be known as "transgender" only puts folks in the very box other people want to label us, discriminate against us, call us abnormal, and deny us rights, privileges and benefits. But becuase it's "our" box, we're happy?

And now I've learned with what issues to simply walk away from because hearing all sides of an issue aren't available here. And rightfully, it's the owner's privilege, but that too comes at a price and cost too.

[NicholeW.]

... And now I've learned with what issues to simply walk away from because hearing all sides of an issue aren't available here. And rightfully, it's the owner's privilege, but that too comes at a price and cost too.

That's an interesting take, given that until yesterday this "issue" has been done with and reopened many, many times; especially during the past year or two. Everyone, including people who joined the board strictly for the argument, adulation or whatever of seeing the imported links brought here and talked about, has participated: many of us and them again and again.

Yet, now that the "enough is more than enough" sign has come to the topic we hear that gem. Like somehow the discussion has never been allowed rather than that it's now being stopped after two years and more of hashing it.

I have not yet seen this topic discussed to distraction at strict TS forums and with as full a hearing as it's had here. I know that on the "true transsexual" list-serves that it is not discussed with any sense that the opposer of the party-line there is to be given any respect or hearing at all. Instead the tack is invariably withering personal attack and attempts at dismissal and shaming.

That has never been the case at Susan's.

I don't agree with everything the boss does, but this time I am totally in her corner. This crap does nothing but divide and she has allowed it to go on and on for two years without smacking it down. I'd say every pov has been heard: more than once and quite openly.

The stone you appeared to cast just doesn't land near Susan. She's had patience and given both "sides" plenty of time and bandwidth. Way more than you are going to find done elsewhere. Elsewhere tends to be "you will argue this but not that or you will go."

Now, about this topic, I suppose that's true here as well. But please don't imply that Susan has been less than fair in this. She has shown a lot of patience for something that she apparently doesn't agree with. I'd say she's bent over backwards to be fair, and has succeeded.

Nichole

[Susan]

SusanK had her account deleted anyone else?

[Luc]

I see something very wrong with being discriminatory when you are part of group that is so widely discriminated against. If we do nothing but perpetrate the same crimes against our own as others perpetrate against us, what are we? Do we have any right to tell those who hate us because we're different that they're wrong?

We're all in this boat of not having been born into a body that necessary suits who we are; we all transcend the lines of traditional gender barriers. What do labels matter? Who cares what the "why" is?

If people want to leave this site because they're unhappy that they can't be thought of as superior to others, or for any other reason related to this discussion, please do so, for the rest of our benefit. I think Susan is absolutely in the right to expel this garbage from our otherwise accepting and supportive community.

SD

[imaz]

I see something very wrong with being discriminatory when you are part of group that is so widely discriminated against. If we do nothing but perpetrate the same crimes against our own as others perpetrate against us, what are we? Do we have any right to tell those who hate us because we're different that they're wrong?

We're all in this boat of not having been born into a body that necessary suits who we are; we all transcend the lines of traditional gender barriers. What do labels matter? Who cares what the "why" is?

If people want to leave this site because they're unhappy that they can't be thought of as superior to others, or for any other reason related to this discussion, please do so, for the rest of our benefit. I think Susan is absolutely in the right to expel this garbage from our otherwise accepting and supportive community.

SD

Tell me about it!

With all the sh*t happening in this World do we really want to waste our lives bitching about who is TS, who is TG or whoever is whatever. As you rightly say we were all born with certain difficulties we had to face that SHOULD unite us in human solidarity not divide us.

This is truly a disgraceful kind of disagreement and as people who have suffered greatly we should have the decency to have compassion and understanding for those who have also suffered and continue to suffer.

I fully support Susan in her actions here.

[iminadaze]

I could never debate a topic as strong as this.

I am here for support and I believe this site has supported me through alot of my transition.
I have never felt labeled here as anything other than who I identified as, and I see others as
they wish to be identified. It really is that simple, why do some make it complicated?

Susan, you have a big heart and I personally am grateful that you do.

[Pica Pica]

Here in the UK unfortunately there are various "distasteful"(!) expressions used to define our Australian cousins

You ought to hear what they say about you, LOL!  The fastest way to get your butt kicked in the world is to imply to an Aussie that he or she is somehow English.

just cos we are descended from the criminals who didn't get caught.

[imaz]

just cos we are descended from the criminals who didn't get caught.

Hahaha! Class.

[Ashley315]

The problem only came from them using it as a weapon against the rest of us who are not ashamed of being trans and can accept that it is only a very small fraction of who we are.  It does not define us, it is just something that links us all together.  I'm sorry, but the standard is right, if you are not trans or family/friend of trans and you are only here to try and divide the lines like some obviously were here to do, then I for one and glad to see you go.  Hope more join the masses and go somewhere else with that HBS BS.

You say you have/had HBS, big deal, doesn't make you anymore more woman/man than any other trans woman/man here.   HBS people wanted to be considered apart from Trans.. here is their chance.  Go, be free.  Denounce trans and everything related to it.  Have a great life.  Hope it all works out well for you.

[Mister]

The problem only came from them using it as a weapon against the rest of us who are not ashamed of being trans and can accept that it is only a very small fraction of who we are.  It does not define us, it is just something that links us all together.  I'm sorry, but the standard is right, if you are not trans or family/friend of trans and you are only here to try and divide the lines like some obviously were here to do, then I for one and glad to see you go.  Hope more join the masses and go somewhere else with that HBS BS.

You say you have/had HBS, big deal, doesn't make you anymore more woman/man than any other trans woman/man here.   HBS people wanted to be considered apart from Trans.. here is their chance.  Go, be free.  Denounce trans and everything related to it.  Have a great life.  Hope it all works out well for you.

Ashley, not everyone who doesn't ID as trans does so because they're ashamed.  That's a pretty horrible myth.

[Ashley315]

Ashley, not everyone who doesn't ID as trans does so because they're ashamed.  That's a pretty horrible myth.

Really?  Give me more reasons please.   Oh, you are right, there is the cowardice part of it.  Forgot about that one.  Or the fact that maybe they are so wrapped up in their own selves to think of how it harms others.  But it really boils down the them wanting to be more woman than a trans woman.  That just isn't possible.  Trans women are just as womanly as cis gendered women and especially as womanly as any HBS woman.

[Mister]

Really?  Give me more reasons please.   Oh, you are right, there is the cowardice part of it.  Forgot about that one.  Or the fact that maybe they are so wrapped up in their own selves to think of how it harms others.  But it really boils down the them wanting to be more woman than a trans woman.  That just isn't possible.  Trans women are just as womanly as cis gendered women and especially as womanly as any HBS woman.

Wow, now who's being divisive?

How about not wanting the stigma?  Or being defined by a birth defect / genetic anomoly? 

[Ashley315]

Wow, now who's being divisive?

How about not wanting the stigma?  Or being defined by a birth defect / genetic anomoly?

Honey, if they think that defines them, they have deeper issues than being trans/HBS.  It doesn't define me or give me a stigma.  It is just something else about me.  Much like the fact that I'm of Native American decent, or that I have brown hair.

[Alyssa M.]

Ashley,

You're right -- the only problem is divissiveness. But I don't think that all the people who don't see the word "transgender" as applying them (for whatever reason) are divissive -- see Ashley's video, for example. (I assume you're not the same Ashley! ) There are some here as well who don't make a big deal about it. I just don't think that liking the lingo should be a litmus test. That would be like saying you have to identify as "Negro" to accept a scholarship from the UNCF or "Colored" to accept legal help from the NAACP. The language changes and will continue to change.

~Alyssa

[Mister]

Honey, if they think that defines them, they have deeper issues than being trans/HBS.  It doesn't define me or give me a stigma.  It is just something else about me.  Much like the fact that I'm of Native American decent, or that I have brown hair.

You don't get to decide if something has stigma or not.  Brown hair certainly doesn't, but a sex change does.

Also, please don't use fake terms of endearment with me.  Thank you.

[Ashley315]

I agree, it is just a label.  But it's when some use that label to hold others down that it becomes a problem.

[Mister]

I agree, it is just a label.  But it's when some use that label to hold others down that it becomes a problem.

totally.  but cowardice and shame aren't the reasons why it's discarded.

[Susan]

Wow, now who's being divisive?

How about not wanting the stigma?  Or being defined by a birth defect / genetic anomoly?

How about being selfish. They want what the GLBT rights movement can give them without wanting to help push it along. Why simply because of fear.
What happens when society mandates a chromosome test and says that you can't marry unless your partner has different sex chromosomes than you do. They are doing it to the gay and lesbians. It's a very small step to saying we are not human either. Don't think they won't do it, if they win with taking human rights away from gays. You have to fight for your rights. Part of that right is not to have to hide and to still be accepted as who you are, not just because they don't know your past.

If you allow your past to define you, you are doing it wrong.

A closet is a closet, it doesn't matter if it's a closet you are in because you don't want others to think you abnormal, or one you are in because you think if they don't know you were born trans, then you are what society considers normal.

This my dears is also what allows bigots to justify the trans-panic defenses when they murder us.

Topic locked.