Transgender as an umbrella term

[Alyssa M.]

I'd like to think that the "Transgender" label is not all that important, that no label is, and that we could be welcoming to people who have struggles with gender regardless of their choice of terminology, provided they don't have a problem playing with the other kids. Those of us who are more or less comfortable with the term "transgender" would do well to understand that to others the term is about aas appealing as " ->-bleeped-<-" is to some of us.

I think this video does a good job of presenting a reasonable differing point of view:

Ashley's (icecoldbath) video "Four Letter Words, Part V"

I made that a link through tinyurl because I didn't want to embed; also, perhaps the best part is the comment section. If posting this is a violation, please delete it. I don't think it is a subject that needs discussion here, but I think we would do well to realize that there are very legitimate different points of view. I'd like to think that we could welcome someone like Ashley.

~Alyssa

[Mister]

This video is awesome, alyssa.

[Susan]

I watched the video and the individual in it makes a lot of incorrect assumptions...

From the Wikipedia...

Transgender (IPA: /trænzˈdʒɛndɚ/, from (Latin) derivatives [trans <L, combination form meaning across, beyond, through] and [gender <ME <MF gendre, genre <L gener- meaning kind or sort]) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies that diverge from the normative gender role (woman or man) commonly, but not always, assigned at birth by genetics, as well as the role traditionally held by society.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, or neither) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify themselves as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

    * "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[1]

    * "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[2]

    * "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[3]

A transgender individual may have characteristics that are normally associated with a particular gender, identify elsewhere on the traditional gender continuum, or exist outside of it as "other," "agender," "intergender," or "third gender". Transgender people may also identify as bigender, or along several places on either the traditional transgender continuum, or the more encompassing continuum which have been developed in response to the significantly more detailed studies done in recent years.[4]

Evolution of the term transgender

The term transgender (TG) was popularized in the 1970s[5] (but implied in the 1960s[6][7]) describing people who wanted to live cross-gender without sex reassignment surgery.[8] In the 1980s the term was expanded to an umbrella term,[9] and became popular as a means of uniting all those whose gender identity did not mesh with their gender assigned at birth.[10]

In the 1990s, the term took on a political dimension[11][12] as an alliance covering all who have at some point not conformed to gender norms, and the term became used to question the validity of those norms[13] or pursue equal rights and anti-discrimination legislation,[14][15] leading to its widespread usage in the media, academic world and law.[16] The term continues to evolve.

Transgender identities

While people self-identify as transgender, transgender identity includes many overlapping categories. These include cross-dresser (CD); ->-bleeped-<- (TV); androgynes; genderqueer; people who live cross-gender; drag kings; and drag queens; and, frequently, transsexual (TS).[17] Usually not included because it is considered to be a paraphilia (rather than gender identification) are transvestic fetishists. In an interview, artist RuPaul talked about society's ambivalence to the differences in the people who embody these terms. "A friend of mine recently did the Oprah show about transgender youth," said RuPaul. "It was obvious that we, as a culture, have a hard time trying to understand the difference between a drag queen, transsexual, and a transgender, yet we find it very easy to know the difference between the American baseball league and the National baseball league, when they are both so similar."[18] These terms are explained below.

The extent to which intersex people (those with ambiguous genitalia or other physical sexual characteristics) are transgender is debated, since not all intersex people disagree about their gender assigned at birth. The current definitions of transgender include all transsexual people, although this has been criticized. (See below.)

The term transman refers to female-to-male (FtM or F2M) transgender people, and transwoman refers to male-to-female (MtF or M2F) transgender people, although some transgender people identify only slightly with the gender not assigned at birth. In the past, it was assumed that there were far more transwomen than transmen, but a Swedish study estimated a ratio of 1.4:1 in favor of transwomen for those requesting sex reassignment surgery and a ratio of 1:1 for those who proceeded.[19] There is a school of thought that says terms such as "FtM" and "MtF" are subjugating language that reinforces the binary gender stereotype.[20]

The term cisgender has been coined as an antonym referring to non-transgender people; i.e. those who identify with their gender assigned at birth.[21]

There's a lot more there but as you can see.

Second is the claim that the term is a pejorative. That is also incorrect but lets argue for the sake of argument that is indeed true. The best way to fight that is to embrace the pejorative and turn it against those who would use it against you as a slur. A good example of this is the term ->-bleeped-<-...

Intolerant bigots would use it against gays and eventually the gay community turned it around and started embracing the term taking the venom out of the hands of those who would use it against them.

You define yourself. Allowing someone else to define you suggests that perhaps you don't have a firm sense of self identity to begin with.

Finally it's the community who will decide what the term means to us and here I have already done that...

Transgender: an inclusive umbrella term which covers anyone who transcends their birth gender for any reason. This includes but is not limited to Androgynes, Crossdressers, Drag kings, Drag queens, Intersexuals, Transsexuals, and ->-bleeped-<-s.

[Zelane]

Its a label and an arbitrary one like many other labels.

I particularly dont like its umbrella designation. It does help to unify individuals that might share certain things. But the types of persons cited all have different views and roads.

[Steph]

Its a label and an arbitrary one like many other labels.

I particularly dont like its umbrella designation. It does help to unify individuals that might share certain things. But the types of persons cited all have different views and roads.

I have to agree.  I personally do not like being included  with a group who I have nothing in common with and who I don't identify with, and I believe that to many who identify as I do see the term as an obstacle, an impediment and generally derogatory.

There have been many topics here questioning why transsexuals who have successfully made the journey disappear, try to go stealth, who want nothing to do with their past, and stop supporting forums such as these and I believe that this term is one of the reasons.

Steph

[Sephirah]

Well... my own view is that the word, indeed any label that focuses solely on one aspect of a person and is assumed a basis for their entire existance, is given far too much weight. And that commonalities could, and should be sought on a far broader scale than simply gender identity. People are people, no matter their gender identification, and if they choose to identify in one particular way rather than another... they are still a human being, with all the same hopes, dreams, fears and insecurities as the rest of us... and have the potential to be the best friends you could ever meet.

A rose by any other name...

The only issues I have with the term 'Transgender' are either when it's used as a noun, or as a weapon.

As an aside:

You define yourself. Allowing someone else to define you suggests that perhaps you don't have a firm sense of self identity to begin with.

I really like this.

[Fer]

I can only define the terms with respect to legal and medical terminology and give you a little history as to how the terms came about. I've tried to simplify this the best way that I can. I apologise for the lengthy explanation.

The term Transgenderd was created by "Virginia Prince", a full time cross dresser who openly disdained transsexuals. She wrote a book called "How to be a Woman though Male". She believed when a dual personality cross-dresser emerges this continues and separates the genders in the cross-dressing man and gender dipolarity itself becomes a sort of a fetish and eventually defines himself as transgendered and live full time as a woman without the need for GRS.....and so "transgender" was defined.

As you can see, this is where transsexuals started to resent being called "transgender".  If you don't believe me look at the gay movement history in the United States starting, in the late 60's all the way to today.

In the 1990s the term took on a political dimension where tg groups formed alliances covering all who have at some point not conformed to gender norms. They included transsexuals and intersexed to the mix.

In the mid to late 90's "transgender" became a common term to define tv/tg and ts's and intersexed. Many transsexuals and intersex people oppose this term to this day.

Many ts's (and ts exclusive organizations) separate themselves from "transgender" mainly because we wish to be seen as what we are, male or female, and being transsexual was a process not an identity. Many ts's also feel that the "transgender" movement is creating a third gender. Many transsexuals believe in the binary male or female and do not believe temselves to be a third gender. Also many transgender peeps insist that 'transsexual' is part of 'transgender whilst most transsexual people insist that it is not. This should give you some idea of who stands to gain, and who stands to lose, from such an inclusion.

http://www.womensweb.ca/lgbt/transgender.php

[Lisbeth]

Its a label and an arbitrary one like many other labels.

I particularly dont like its umbrella designation. It does help to unify individuals that might share certain things. But the types of persons cited all have different views and roads.

All words are arbitrary labels. To think that some words are arbitrary and others not, is to ignore the nature of human language. And all language flows organically from it's use by people. You may attempt to force a word to a certain definition, but in the end only the way people use it will determine it's meaning. Say you don't like "transgender" if you like, but the community and the world at large will make the decision, not you.

I personally do not like being included  with a group who I have nothing in common with and who I don't identify with,

If you believe you have nothing in common with them, it could be because you have no understanding of who they are. If you bothered to gain some understanding of the group, you just might realize that you have a good deal in common with them. There is hardly any group of people you don't have something in common with, and it is only prejudice that keeps people from seeing each other.

[Alyssa M.]

 

I guess my post in that other thread got spun off. Susan's doing? (I assume so, since hers was the first response that wasn't in that thread.)

I think it's clear that on this site, transgender is meant as an umbrella term, full stop. No need for any more elaboration.

My point in posting Ashley's video was not to suggest that I agree with her, but that I respect her point of view. A can argue with her all day, but at the end if the day, she will still find the term troubling and offensive. That does not make her wrong.

If we are not allowed to discuss those other terms that some (okay, myself included) find to be exclusionary and inflammatory, why are we discussing this term that others find exclusionary and inflammatory? How is this any more productive? I was tempted to lock this topic, but I guess I can't since I didn't technically start it.

Here's what it comes down to:

Finally it's the community who will decide what the term means to us and here I have already done that...

Susan, you are correct in two senses. First, this forum is yours to handle how you please, so you are free to define terms for use within. But you are also correct that the community at large, the transgender community (in the sense of transgender you defined) will decide in a number of conflicting and contrary ways what terminology to use, and even who belongs to the community. What appears in Wikipedia, the OED, Merriam-Webster, the AP style manual, etc. ought to reflect that emerging and evolving consensus, not the other way around. This is how it happens with all communitites. Consider colored people; I mean Negroes, excuse me, black -- I mean, Afro -- er, African Americans. All of those terms have been acceptable at one point or another, and each is unacceptable to at least some in that community today. Or consider the word "queer." Some love it, some hate it, and the meaning is changing. So it is with all the words we use in this community.

[glendagladwitch]

I'd like to think that the "Transgender" label is not all that important, that no label is, and that we could be welcoming to people who have struggles with gender regardless of their choice of terminology, provided they don't have a problem playing with the other kids. Those of us who are more or less comfortable with the term "transgender" would do well to understand that to others the term is about aas appealing as " ->-bleeped-<-" is to some of us.

I think this video does a good job of presenting a reasonable differing point of view:

Ashley's (icecoldbath) video "Four Letter Words, Part V"

I made that a link through tinyurl because I didn't want to embed; also, perhaps the best part is the comment section. If posting this is a violation, please delete it. I don't think it is a subject that needs discussion here, but I think we would do well to realize that there are very legitimate different points of view. I'd like to think that we could welcome someone like Ashley.

~Alyssa

If someone who hates the term "autogenephilia" goes to a forum named "So and So's Autogenephilia Forum" and joins as a member and then whines about the term "autogenephilia" being offensive to them, I expect you can guess what I think of that person.

Starts with a "T."  Rhymes with "Troll."

[Butterfly]

Before & after her transition is complete a transsexual woman may identify as transsexual or transgender but it's up to her (not to other people) to choose those terms for her. Though most of us want to be referred to as just WOMEN.

But saying "I am transgender" is, in effect, saying to society "I don't accept your insistence that there are only two genders, and I must belong to one or the other". It's a socio-political statement.

It doesn't apply to transsexual people; we aren't challenging gender, we aren't making any kind of statement; we're just trying to correct a congenital condition, and live our lives as best we can. It does us no favours to blur the distinction in the eyes of the general public. 

I have nothing against transgender people; I know, work with and support many of them.  But I have no more in common with them than I do with stamp-collectors or football players.

[Sephirah]

I'm probably being very stupid here, but there seems to be an odd practice of making the word mean what you want it to mean in order to fit your own point of view.

For example:

From the Wikipedia...

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, or neither) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male or female based on physical/genetic sex). "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify themselves as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

    * "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[1]

    * "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[2]

    * "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."[3]

(bold added for emphasis)

And...

But saying "I am transgender" is, in effect, saying to society "I don't accept your insistence that there are only two genders, and I must belong to one or the other". It's a socio-political statement.

I don't see the link. And it's a bit of a leap to read that much into it. Surely it's more accurate to say that by saying "I am a transgendered person", it's saying to society "I don't identify with the sex I was assigned at birth"? No more than that... other than what people decide to infer from it.

The only distinctions seem to be the ones people make for themselves in order to differentiate, and distance themselves from those individual people they consider to not be like them. Subsets within subsets... where does it end? Six billion subsets of one?

It seems that two out of three of those definitions of 'Transgender' can apply to most, if not all people here. So where's the nothing in common?

[mina.magpie]

IMO it might be accurate to use transgender as an umbrella term or it might not. It's destructive though since it has become a singularly divisive force we can ill afford. I've taken to using the term "gender-variant" as an umbrella term where I write, since it's one that gets used fairly often in the medical profession nowadays, and where I need to be more specific, I'll say "transgender and transsexual people". Not everybody agrees with that either, but yeah, it's the best I've been able to come up with.

Mina.

[NicholeW.]

I can see why women and men who have transsexed or are transsexing might be averse to accepting things that they imagine Virginia Prince had anything to do with. She was (although still alive she no longer entertains at soirees or public forums nor does she write books any longer) quite the high-handed, convinced I am right with no equality granted kinda person that many transsexed women seem to manage to be themselves.

http://www.gender.org.uk/conf/2000/king20.htm

The read is instructive about her. I think the things I find most ironic are the ones that if you changed a name or word here or there you'd effectively be reading some of the more blatantly authoritarian documents you see posted around the web from others who would mandate everyone's acceptance of their own ideas. In point of fact there are more than a few of her notions as delineated in that essay that are absolutely indistinguishable from a lot of what I have read in various recently published articles formerly posted here. Ironic, no? Not really, people who demand their own rightness to the exclusion of any possibility that another might have a point often seem very similar in their own ideas and presentations. Just the way things are.

Terms and words that become general usage take on lives of their own. The coiner can hardly guide the way the word/s is/are used and defined after a certain critical mass of people begin to use the word/s. It's a seriously insane essay to make the attempt.

That there are differences between cds, tvs, dqs, tses (of both genders) and a host of other acronymically-defined folk who appear to fall under or try to escape that umbrella that actually comprises not just the T but also the LBG, is simply a given. In the same fashion that in being a member of the NAACP I may not be only an African-American. I could well be "white" or Jewish-white or Jewish-dark or Hispanic of various hues or some other color or designation entirely. But my pursuit of equality under the law might touch many other lives than just my own or people just like me.

The deal is, are there points at which the socio-political landscape may be better made to assist me rather than to harm me if I  ally myself and my cause with the causes of others who might have reasons to assist me if I assist them? The answer to that would be "hell yeah." And I would just do so not only with the LBGT, but with Republicans, Socialists, Libertarians, Green Partyists, and anyone else who might be willing to ally themselves with my agenda.

What I find consistently amazing is not that people want to take ownership of particular words and try to make certain that "the true meaning" (a laughable concept, linguistically speaking) never changes. Shoot, Noah Webster, Voltaire, Pierre Bayle, Dr. Johnson and all sorts of other people have done that as well: they've made dictionaries!! Yet, what invariably occurs is that if the dictionary continues to be updated, then the definitions consistently change and you get those entries that say obsl at the head of their entries. That would be obsolete "no longer in common usage."

Life moves on, if you can get in to see her ask Virginia Prince in her nursing home. If she still talks she can tell ya she's not living in 1997 or even 1948 any longer. Neither are any of us. The wise tactic seems to me 1) don't try to mold the language into my ownership of a particular word (The task is doomed to failure,) and 2) take whatever allies you may who will agree to at least have your back if necessary. That's a rather eternal political principle. Once you gain total power you can rid yourself of them at your leisure.



   

[SarahFaceDoom]

I use transgender, because it's so vague. I don't feel like people need more information about the specific status of my transition past that.  They can think what they want.  It also seems like there are less misconceptions with the word.  If I say transsexual, then inevitably I'm asked about the status of my genitals.  Which I don't feel really has a place in casual conversation.

[Susan]

I have to agree.  I personally do not like being included  with a group who I have nothing in common with and who I don't identify with, and I believe that to many who identify as I do see the term as an obstacle, an impediment and generally derogatory.

There have been many topics here questioning why transsexuals who have successfully made the journey disappear, try to go stealth, who want nothing to do with their past, and stop supporting forums such as these and I believe that this term is one of the reasons.

Steph

Once again if your aims are not associated with the transgender community then why are you here at a transgender support site? It's a simple question which no one has had a good answer for. I will give you one. You are a woman, but you are also transgender because of your background if nothing else. Every TS here preop and post op wishes that wasn't the case but no amount of surgery can as of this time correct that. You can't go back in time and correct before birth that which made you a transsexual. Neither can you erase your upbringing. You were raised as a male. You now live as female the term fits.

That being said you don't have to make transgender a primary label That's reserved for your name Stephanie. No one here expects you to go around introducing yourself as Hi I am Stephanie I am transgender, just as no one expects you to introduce yourself to strangers as a transsexual.

But here Transgender is and always will be a umbrella term. It's not one you can pick or not, your presence here picks it for you. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but there are really only two choices. Accept that fact of life, or leave. By your presence you label yourself. I am not saying this to be mean or to exclude anyone from our community, I am just stating reality.

[Susan]

I can only define the terms with respect to legal and medical terminology and give you a little history as to how the terms came about. I've tried to simplify this the best way that I can. I apologise for the lengthy explanation.

The term Transgenderd was created by "Virginia Prince", a full time cross dresser who openly disdained transsexuals. She wrote a book called "How to be a Woman though Male". She believed when a dual personality cross-dresser emerges this continues and separates the genders in the cross-dressing man and gender dipolarity itself becomes a sort of a fetish and eventually defines himself as transgendered and live full time as a woman without the need for GRS.....and so "transgender" was defined.

As you can see, this is where transsexuals started to resent being called "transgender".  If you don't believe me look at the gay movement history in the United States starting, in the late 60's all the way to today.

In the 1990s the term took on a political dimension where tg groups formed alliances covering all who have at some point not conformed to gender norms. They included transsexuals and intersexed to the mix.

In the mid to late 90's "transgender" became a common term to define tv/tg and ts's and intersexed. Many transsexuals and intersex people oppose this term to this day.

Many ts's (and ts exclusive organizations) separate themselves from "transgender" mainly because we wish to be seen as what we are, male or female, and being transsexual was a process not an identity. Many ts's also feel that the "transgender" movement is creating a third gender. Many transsexuals believe in the binary male or female and do not believe temselves to be a third gender. Also many transgender peeps insist that 'transsexual' is part of 'transgender whilst most transsexual people insist that it is not. This should give you some idea of who stands to gain, and who stands to lose, from such an inclusion.

Being a transsexual doesn't end when the surgery is complete, neither does the fact that Mrs Prince helped to popularize a term which already existed taint the applicability of the word to describe/define this community.

The term took on a different set of meanings following the publication of Leslie Feinberg's 1992 pamphlet, Transgender Liberation: A Movement Whose Time Has Come, the ideas in which were later expanded into the books Transgender Warriors (1997) and Trans Liberation: Beyond Pink or Blue (1999).

In Feinberg's usage, transgender became an umbrella term used to represent a political alliance between all gender-variant people who do not conform to social norms for (What society considers) typical men and women, and who suffer political oppression as a result.

The only taint on the word exists only because you accept that it has one. I don't accept that there is a taint on the word  and there for the word is perfectly fine. If we as a community accept the supposed taint then we give ammunition to those who would use it as words of hate against us. But they don't need it do they because many in this community would feel pain if someone told them that they were not men or woman, they would accept it because that is how others view them. Of course not. So the arguments you have raised do not justify letting you or anyone else decide who is or who is not an acceptable member of our community. Remember this is not a transsexual only support site. Just as Mrs Prince's Tri-ess discriminates against transsexuals, many of you would have me to allow discimination against others who call this place home. I will not do so, nor will I allow anyone else to either.

[Zelane]

I think that banner tells exactly what this site its about. They even have a terms list for THIS community and according to those terms here im labeled TG. That its quite ironic because I often say "you can call me TS or TG its ok. I just dont use it because its not truly accurate"

But the point its just a label and thats all.


The most important thing its what this place its about. You see a place where everybody (or almost) its welcomed. A place where a person in doubts can find some answers and a place if you think you are alone with your feelings. Well after reading some stories you might realize you are not alone.

Its a support group thats all. Under that idea looking for a way to connect to the most persons that might need support its not an easy task. I have come here to listen and learn about others. Some of the members here could have had similar challenges like I have had.

But even if their roads are compeltely different as mine. I respect them for just being themselves. Even if we cant understand each others we can still support each others.

[cindybc]

I do agree with Susan's last paragraph. I don't consider myself under anyone's umbrella. I have been living the life of a woman for 9 years and I consider myself as a woman with a trans history.

I don't belong to anyones clubs I am just here as a quest of Susan's, and my only desire is to give support and help who ever needs the suport or help no mater what they identify as. But my knowledge lies mostly with GID and Trassexuality. As for the rest of the folk here I do what I can to give moral support if nothing else, may God bless.

I don't come here to support causes only to educate and support any individuals who will accet my support.

Cindy 

[Caroline]

But saying "I am transgender" is, in effect, saying to society "I don't accept your insistence that there are only two genders, and I must belong to one or the other". It's a socio-political statement.

It doesn't apply to transsexual people; we aren't challenging gender, we aren't making any kind of statement; we're just trying to correct a congenital condition, and live our lives as best we can. It does us no favours to blur the distinction in the eyes of the general public.

You seem to be rather implying that accepting that there are more than two genders means you can't be one of the two binary genders.  It's perfectly possible to identify as male or female without invalidating other people's identities.  I really don't think the term 'transgender' implies you're outside the binary, I've never seen it used this way.  Most people when they think of transgender either see crossdresser or binary TS.  There is very little awareness among the general public of non-binary IDed people.

Many ts's (and ts exclusive organizations) separate themselves from "transgender" mainly because we wish to be seen as what we are, male or female, and being transsexual was a process not an identity. Many ts's also feel that the "transgender" movement is creating a third gender. Many transsexuals believe in the binary male or female and do not believe temselves to be a third gender. Also many transgender peeps insist that 'transsexual' is part of 'transgender whilst most transsexual people insist that it is not. This should give you some idea of who stands to gain, and who stands to lose, from such an inclusion.

I am probably part of the "transgender movement" as you put it.  I do wish society would recognise that there are more than two genders.  However I am very much against binary IDed transsexual men and women being seen as outside of the binary.  That is misgendering and NONE of us here should ever be supportive of that. 

There seems to be a fear among the binary IDed folk that if other genders are recognized they will be thrown into the 'other' categories.  I think the best way to avoid this happening is if we all stick together, are mindful of each others identities and needs and avoid treading on each others toes.  That means on the one side, binary IDed people recognising the existence of the non-binary IDed folk.  On the other side, non-binary IDed folk need to be careful not to give the impression that ALL trans people want to be a third gender, instead be very clear that trans women and trans men should be absolutely 100% regarded as their identified gender.  As I see it, divisiveness can only lead to it being easier for both sides to tread on each others toes and confuse the issue.