Some thought provoking questions

[Valerie Elizabeth]

I have a couple of questions for anyone who is willing to answer them.  I was posed a question and it spawned some more questions.  I would love to hear what other peoples answers are.



1) What do you define a woman as, like what does that mean to you to be a woman?


2) If you have an idealized version of a woman what does that entail? What is she like? Is it in the essence of being a female? If so, how much of that essence are socially expected roles/traits/appearances (for example there is a really great documentary series called killing us softly about objectification of women in media - you should check it out if your interested in the topic)?


3) Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were in a different country? American society has very different gender expectations of females from other countries, villages, tribes, etc...so the definition changes. I guess what I'm trying to ask is how much of what your going through do you relate to nature-that is the biological makeup of sex and nurture- the socially acceptable traits/behaviors/attitudes of a woman that you are consciously planning on adopting in your transition? Both are heavily debated when it comes to gender as to what is more influential but not one is considered to be the only factor.

[Cindy]

Happy to join a discussion
If I was in a country orsociety that totally debased females I would still want to change my sex. My desire to transition is not based on the "glory" of western femininity. My problem is that I am mentally female, and outwordly male.
In a society or culture that is not female friendly I still would feel the same.
It must be hell for FtM in that situation.

Not sure if this is what you were aiming at.

Cindy James

[Genevieve Swann]

In some societies age makes a difference in how a female is viewed. For example: senorita, senora and dona. Each individuals personality would be a major factor.

[cindybc]

I have taken this composition from my blog and posted it here, I believe that it answers some of the questions asked on this thread.

For me it was very much like combination awakening and a recall.

For me it was an inner wisdom never before taped. A knowing and joining of both the psychological and spiritual in harmony with my awakening to the spheres of reality, true reality in the order and harmony of universe and not the **falsehoods and lies,** that those who would oppress the free thoughts and emotions of a woman. You need to reawaken and see the world through different eyes. The eyes and embracing arms of a caring, loving nurturing heart.

Eyes that are able to perceive the simplest of harmonies in nature, and to be aware of the elements and the dualities of darkness and light that is all around us. The same elements we live and share with the denizens of the wilderness which is the cradle of all sentient living things, just as you would embrace new life in your arms that is part of you.

You will feel emotions such as love and compassion to such depth and intensity like never before experienced,

It is a soul awakening which contains rivers of ardent tears of sorrow, as well as impassioned feelings of laughter, happiness and contentment.

No more shall this new light be mired by infusions of bewilderment and confusion as your heart will be at peace and tranquility will reign within, no mater who seeks to repress and imprison you, your soul shall always be free.

Does true reality hidden in nature exist only in children's story books and the mother telling the story to her child?

Mankind chooses to discard these wonderful gifts of nature in pursuit of the material things for which they will rape, pillage and slowly kill Mother Earth for their own greedy needs of power and riches, just to be false kings of the material world.

Your new life can embrace so much more beauty and bliss in life just by being in harmony and having compassion for the people and the environment around you like they were your own progeny assigned to you to care for on this journey.

Love a child, help a needy, accept both nature and man into the bosom of your heart

But first of all be patient and enjoy the journey, for it is the experience of the journey, not the destination that is the most exciting and meaningful part of life.

Cindy

[K8]

I've often wondered if my desire to be a girl when I was little was because of the male and female stereotypes at the time.  (Probably.)  I managed to get through much of my life as, essentially, a gay man who was sexually attracted to women.  (Fitting into another stereotype.)  When I finally started dealing with my gender issues this time, I thought if I could be a successful crossdresser I would be happy.  As I've talked to more and more of my friends, I realize I want the whole thing: hormones, vagina, sexual harassment.  My understanding of what a woman is keeps growing.  I don't know if I can be one in society, but I know in many ways I always have been one. 

Being a woman is not just dress or behavior.  It's not just physical features and menses.  I *think* I no longer think of it in an idealized way.  But I'd like to join the club and live out the rest of my life as a woman.  I am finding that I am shedding the constricting skin of maleness in this society that confined me for so long.  I think perhaps I can finally be myself as a woman.  I am more open as a novice woman, and I love it.

- Kate

[Valerie Elizabeth]

Being a woman is not just dress or behavior.  It's not just physical features and menses.

- Kate

Can you elaborate on this?

[cindybc]

I was raised and conditioned to feel like a male but never felt right. The way I perceived the world around me was not the same as the other boys. In earlier years I can't say I felt like a boy or a girl, although I preferred playing with girls. I felt more like, androgynous, not one or the other, although I could identify more like girls felt about certain things.

Especially the more profound deep feelings. I couldn't understand why boys thought that such feelings were taboo to them. (Stereotyping) yes there was a lot of that back in my younger days. A line that clearly defined one from the other. There was no blurring of the line like one finds in today's society.

But for me, being a woman, I guess I am somewhat from the old school. It is not stereotyping, but more like establishing myself, drawing my own line as to where I feel my individuality to be, I am me! So people have always though of me as being odd or one french fry short of a happy meal.

But I do blend in quite well with others out there in society. I don't make waves I keep a low profile, that characteristic hasn't changed any, but I can be quite a chatter box at gatherings and it is my choice of topics that some may find me rather odd, but I also have a good sense of humor. 

But I will say that if you wanna be a woman? You can't go around acting like a guy or vice verse. It is entirely up to the individual on how he/she wishes to behave, it is entirely their prerogative and their choice.

But for me I am a woman, therefor I breath, move, live, behave,  feel and think like the woman 24/7, after a time it is as natural as breathing. Once I knew who it was that resided within me, who I truly was, there was never any great confusion except as to how where and when would I come out presenting and living as my true self.

Behaviour is instinctive, and once you surrender to the true self and add the magic elixir of estrogen, the estrogen releases the flood gates that had for so many years holding back the flood waters of my female personality. Everything else falls into place instinctively over time.

(Disclaimer) Just a generalization no one in particular.

Cindy

[Ashley315]

Being a woman is nothing more than a state of mind.  If you think it you are it, no questions asked.  There are no right or wrong ways to be a woman (or a man for that matter).  Gender is a social idea and it changes from region to region and over time.

The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then?  Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around.  Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?

[cindybc]

Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? I feel the way I am now and to be sure it ain't what I felt from others of the supposedly same gender I was raised to think I was as a kid.

I am an empath and can feel other peoples feelings and I will say that we all have our own unique individual way of feeling about things, both male and female. Now that may appear to be subtle to most on the outside, but it is quite an astronomical differencess in depth on the inside.

Going back? literally? My answer would be, over my dead body.

Cindy

[K8]

Can you elaborate on this?

This still isn't really clear in my own mind, but as I journey down this road I am finding that distinctly women's clothes (skirts, heels, etc.) are less important to me than they were.  Makeup is still new to me, and so I am still taking a lot of pleasure in that.

Cindy and Ashley have described it well.  I think what I was trying to say in my earlier post is that being a woman is attitude, identifying with other women, feeling more at peace with other women than with men. 

I am finding, too, that it is an openness to those around me that I didn't experience when I was trying to be a man.  As I learn more to be a woman, I am more expressive and more receptive to others than I used to be.  I would love to be identified as a woman, but even if I can't get there this openness to others is a gift I love and didn't expect.

- Kate

[FairyGirl]

I think I would be the same person, no matter what gender you want to call it. I do think however there is a factor in the male/female anatomical dichotomy that dictates some of our social behaviors and attitudes. The old innie/outie, yin/yang thang. Other than that, women do smell sweeter than men, sorry lol    

[Alyssa M.]

Valerie,

1) Being a woman is much like being a human (to look more broadly) or a member of my family (to look core closely). I feel connection to other people just by recognizing our commonality as people; I feel connected to my family by seeing myself reflected in them, and them in me. I have always felt more natural kinship with women than men. Women are my family, for better or for worse.

2) I don't really have an "idealized" woman; rather there are a number of women that I either know personally or know from literature or history that I admire and wish I could be like.

3) I'm pretty sure that I'd still feel that kinship with women. However, I'd likely construct a different model for understanding it depending on the culture.

The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then?  Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around.  Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?

That's an interesting question, but I can't really grasp the premise. Yes, I get the words, but I don't know what would be meant be a world where gender roles are "reversed." I have lots of attributes that I see as feminine, that is, attributes I see reflected in many women that I meet. So I guess the question is whether I see that more because I have more of those traits, or because I'm more likely to see those traits in women? I guess the answer is: yes, both. Perhaps I have more of those traits because I see them in women.

[placeholdername]

The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then?  Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around.  Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?

What exactly are we saying here?  Do we mean just social/cultural traits but with the same anatomy?  Because I'd think guys would look funny in girls clothing...  I mean the question seems to make sense on (virtual) paper, but I'm not sure it translates to the real world.

[Ashley315]

I think I would be the same person, no matter what gender you want to call it. I do think however there is a factor in the male/female anatomical dichotomy that dictates some of our social behaviors and attitudes. The old innie/outie, yin/yang thang. Other than that, women do smell sweeter than men, sorry lol   

I don't agree with the statement that anatomy dictates any social behaviors.  I've seen every aspect of both genders in both genders.  Thus the reason we have "masculine" acting women and "feminine" acting men.  It isn't all hormonal either because some of the most feminine acting men that I've known in my life have been tested and had tons of testosterone flowing all through them... I do not know of any masculine acting women who have been tested but I'm sure their results would be the same... (plenty of estrogen).

The thing is, we don't really know anything about the human body really... especially not the human brain.  It is a  mystery to us, and we have only begun to learn the functions of it.

Gender is nothing more than an idea.  Like I said, it is ever changing and ever evolving.  There is no act or behavior that is specifically male or female...

[Janet_Girl]

To me being a woman is more than gender.  It is more like an attitude.  Women seem to have an air about themselves, of power mixed with grace.  And not just a controlling type of power.  It is a power of inner strength and confidence.  And a grace of movement and of mind.  I have always felt that power and grace within myself, but I was hampered by the socialization of being born in a male body.  As I grow as the woman I am now, I find that the power and grace grows within me.

And keeping that in mind, I do have an idealized woman in my mind.  And if I am half the woman she was, I will count myself likely.  She was strong, spoke her mind in time when women weren't suppose to.  She had a strong sense of family and of how the world should operate, without prejudices.  She was open minded and fair to all kinds of people.  I think if she had know about me now, she would have called me 'Daughter'.  This idealized woman was my Mother.  It was sad to have seen her slip into the old senile woman she became in the end.  It was not the woman I idolized.

I would still have worked to become a woman, regardless of what country I would be born in.  I think that this is more than nurture, but more like nature.  It has been shown that many different types of people existed throughout history.  Sexuality and gender are fluid and are more innate than being created from without the self.  What causes this is unknown, but I think that it is part of the human experience.

Humans can and do shift between the two binary genders and sometimes blend the two.  Are the masculine men really true men?  I don't think so, they are more created by society than being born that way.  Are the feminine women really true women?  Again I don't think so, they are more created by society than being born that way.

So who are true men?  And who are true women?  They are the people who are freer about themselves and are not shamed of that.  Women can be rough and tumble, just as men can be nuturing and caring.  More and more people are becoming true humans.  Stay at home Dads.  Women working to support their families. 
I think the the Feminist movement opened the doors to people showing their true nature, by pushing for women to be allowed to do what they wanted and to be paid as their male counterparts.  And men used that to start their own agenda to become the caregivers in their families.  It will be a great day when the binary genders are just an old fashion state of mind.  And it will be a step forward in human evolution.

IMHO,
Janet

[cindybc]

Hi, Janet, hun. Me thinks maybe we had the same mom.   

And keeping that in mind, I do have an idealized woman in my mind.  And if I am half the woman she was, I will count myself likely.  She was strong, spoke her mind in time when women weren't suppose to.  She had a strong sense of family and of how the world should operate, without prejudices.  She was open minded and fair to all kinds of people.  I think if she had know about me now, she would have called me 'Daughter'.  This idealized woman was my Mother.  It was sad to have seen her slip into the old senile woman she became in the end.  It was not the woman I idolized.

I would still have worked to become a woman, regardless of what country I would be born in.  I think that this is more than nurture, but more like nature.  It has been shown that many different types of people existed throughout history.  Sexuality and gender are fluid and are more innate than being created from without the self.  What causes this is unknown, but I think that it is part of the human experience.

I also believe that the roles of female and male, mom, dad, warrior, hunter, farmer, gatherer, etc., may be instinctive but that does not mean that under certain circumstances the roles cannot be switched. There is more of that today because of the way the structure of society has changed. Maybe some or a lot to do with women's lib but I also believe that it was also necessity in the changing dichotomy and roles of how we or whom is earning a living has also greatly changed.

When I was with my ex I did both the mom and dad role, that is, I worked outside the home and looked after the kids. I sent them to school in the morning before going to work and I was home when they got home. I cooked for them, bathed them, changed diapers, cleaned house, did small house repairs and car repairs, mowed the lawn,  shoveled the snow, and found time to go to PTA meetings. Do I know about nurturing? No one taught me, it came instinctively. 

The real question is.. if the gender roles as we know them were reversed, how would you feel about yourself then?  Lets just say that everything we think of as being feminine and masculine were switched completely around.  Would you still feel the same way about everything or would you be happy in the gender role you were born?

I took a stab at that question earlier but I am not really certain if I understand it either.

If I was a cisgendered male, would I still want to be a woman? I doubt it. But since I had the male anatomy and felt alien to my own body I believe that I would have transitioned regardless of the country I was living in. Considering the severity of GID when I arrived at the door step to transitioning, it would have been to be me or to commit hari kari in the trying.

Living with GID and not transition? All bets would have been off, I would have been better off dead.

But today I am me, I love me and I feel comfortable being the me I should have always have been to begin with.



Cindy

[Cindy]

The definition of  male and female does keep evolving. Or is it what are male traits and what are female.

I may suggest that some of the most macho males, particularly the stereotypical ones may be uncomfortable with their "lot" in life.

Similarily I remember seeing an interview with Roger Van Damm  who was married to both Ursala Andress and Biridget Bardot (at different times ). He said that both were miserable in their beauty, not wanting to go out in public for fear of not being the "gorgeous woman". I find both conditions sad.

Is the liberation of gender identity happening. I know and I'm sure many of you know, the stay at home Dad's and the go to work Mum's relationships. Neither partner is GID they are loving and careing partners. But they have identified each others roles(?) in a pragmatic way.

How many of us have heard elderly men say :"I wish I could have enjoyed my childrens' life, but I had to work to keep the family"

I'm probably getting off the point.

Cindy James

[K8]

I agree with FairyGirl.  I think part of it is the anatomy thing - outward and pushing vs. opening and receiving.  Part of it is socialization, although the socialization began from the anatomy thing and the fact that women bear children who need years of care.  The male body has greater upper-body strength.  Males are better at locating the source of a sound.  There are sexual differences.

Years ago, commuting on the interstate I got cut off by an aggressive woman driver.  I thought: perhaps we are liberated now since women can be just as big jerks as men.  I think the women's lib movement freed men as well as women.  When I grew up in the 50s, men were as boxed into their roles as were women.

If I can succeed in becoming a fulltime woman, I'm not sure how different I will be.  I'm sure I will be freer and more open, but I'll still want to ride my motorcycle and paint the house when it needs it.  I hope I will be a better friend to my friends (freer and more open...).  I think I will feel more at peace with myself (freer and more open...).  I don't know, but I hope to be able to find out. 

[coolJ]

Hmmm, for me its simply a state of being my mind is wired to be. For example, I always had to do manly things to prove I was a man. All the while wishing I was all woman. Even with all my fear-fueled conditioning for decades its way more natural for me to be feminine than act masculine. As far as thinking and real desires go I've always thought "woman". Its just the way it is and it feels great not to fight it anymore. As far as societies go I'd still want to be a woman. I never felt "right" as a man and now I really cant stand playing one anymore. Heck this society frowns on "men who want to be women" as weak or mental, etc. What a joke!

[SarahFaceDoom]

1) What do you define a woman as, like what does that mean to you to be a woman?
It's not a set definable thing.  I can express being a woman in an infinite amount of ways.  But as for how it feels and what it means, it's an intangible feeling of satiated comfort.  When my gender presentation was a boy, even though i was presenting as a boy, i knew that the presentation didn't match what I felt inside.  I was constrained in the expression of my identity.  It's not so much that I'm a girl.  So much as i'm me.  Whatever this ball of shocks and jolts that makes up my identity is--it is a girl.  The clothes, the hair, the hormones--that's all cosmetic expression of who I am on the inside.  Transitioning implies a movement between two points, but I'm not moving.  I am revealing.

2) If you have an idealized version of a woman what does that entail? What is she like? Is it in the essence of being a female? If so, how much of that essence are socially expected roles/traits/appearances (for example there is a really great documentary series called killing us softly about objectification of women in media - you should check it out if your interested in the topic)?

I don't have an idealized version of a woman.  I have things I like in some women that I don't like in others.  thinks i like in myself.  things I don't.  But I don't have a version of femalehood that I measure others by.

3) Do you think you'd feel the same way if you were in a different country? American society has very different gender expectations of females from other countries, villages, tribes, etc...so the definition changes. I guess what I'm trying to ask is how much of what your going through do you relate to nature-that is the biological makeup of sex and nurture- the socially acceptable traits/behaviors/attitudes of a woman that you are consciously planning on adopting in your transition? Both are heavily debated when it comes to gender as to what is more influential but not one is considered to be the only factor.

I think so.  Because again, my conception of what is female isn't tied to cultural signposts at it's most intrinsic level.  if i were in a diffrent culture and the fashion was diffrent, teh role of women was diffrent--all of that--I'd just being doing that.  Those elements are my gender expression--not my gender itself.  If my gender was tied to my gender expression in such a concrete way, then i would always be wearing the same skirt.  But I change my fashion with the seasons, with what's in, with what's out.  So if I lived in another culture, I would do diffrent things, look completely diffrent, probably act entirely diffrent, but I would still be a woman.

I could be disguised as a bearded construction worker with huge muscles, and very masculine expressions--and I'd still be a woman.  If that makes sense.