Dating Tips for Non-Ops

[fae_reborn]

Hey everyone,

I thought I'd start the first topic of this new thread we have.  Dating for the non-op.

Personally, while right now I'm not ready to be with anyone, I feel that dating is going to be especially hard for myself and those of us who have, while we may have taken other steps such as orchiectomy, mastectomy, etc. to match our bodies with our minds...we are still not able or are unwilling to have SRS/GRS.  This, invariably, seriously affects our intimate relationships.

There's lots of questions for discussion here, but I'll start us off with a few: How does one disclose their non-op status to a potential partner?  When do we disclose?  Immediately?  After a few dates?  Right before we're about to get intimate with our partner?  Furthermore, how do we work around being a non-op during intimacy, or in other words, please our partners and let them please us when our genitalia don't necessarily match the rest of ourselves?

[mina.magpie]

I'll be following this one with keen interest myself. Thanks for starting it Fae.

Mina.

[Cindy]

Thanks Fae

I'm not in the position to date but I think one has to be terribly careful. I think the partner should not find out by accident, that could lead to a violent incident. Using TS/TG dating agencies as Janet suggested sounds good but you have to be in big cities for them to be present. I also think, without any evidence what so ever that you can still come across 'strange people' who use such sites to prey on others.
Even in my situation of being committed to a woman who depends totally on me, I still dream of satisfying a male lover.

Cindy JAmes

[SarahFaceDoom]

I think a lot of it is trial and error.  I'm still sort of figuring out what I like and don't like sexually.  But I've also found that while it seems that on the surface you'd be at a disadvantage not having any srs--really it's a great way to filter out people, and make sure you're spending time with people who really want you for all of you.  It's also important for me that the relationship not be completely tied up in sex either.

But I'd say more men and women are interested than you'd think.

And like i said in the other thread, Bisexuals tend to be a natural ally for the non-op.  Just because their attraction is not tied to your genetalia, its tied to who you are.  And if you have a penis where you should have a vagina, or vice versa, they tend to just roll with it.

Honestly, beautiful is beautiful.  And who you are and how you act is about 90 percent of it.

[fae_reborn]

I think a lot of it is trial and error.  I'm still sort of figuring out what I like and don't like sexually.  But I've also found that while it seems that on the surface you'd be at a disadvantage not having any srs--really it's a great way to filter out people, and make sure you're spending time with people who really want you for all of you.  It's also important for me that the relationship not be completely tied up in sex either.

But I'd say more men and women are interested than you'd think.

And like i said in the other thread, Bisexuals tend to be a natural ally for the non-op.  Just because their attraction is not tied to your genetalia, its tied to who you are.  And if you have a penis where you should have a vagina, or vice versa, they tend to just roll with it.

Honestly, beautiful is beautiful.  And who you are and how you act is about 90 percent of it.

Totally agree with you Sarah, it's all about your attitude towards the situation...not sure about bisexuals as I haven't met many, but I would tend to think that anyone involved in the GLBT community, even if their a heterosexual ally, would at least have some understanding and generally be accepting.  The area in which you live also helps, as it increases your chance of meeting some understanding folks.  Not necessarily a large city like San Francisco or NYC, as I believe there are a lot of places where one can find the same resources, perhaps in a smaller city?

As for TG/TS dating sites...I personally avoid those, as it seems that, as Cindy pointed out, predators (who may indeed be confused about their own identity/sexuality) lurk on those sites.  Also, I wish to be seen as a woman, not as a TG/TS...that part of me is in the past and it's over.  Granted, it's still relevant as far as dating/intimate relationships, but I am SO much more than that.

As for disclosure...I've talked to my therapist about this, and she suggests getting to know the person as friends first, telling them when comfortable, and THEN try dating.  She says I should avoid casual dating, i.e. random hook-ups.

[pheonix]

Hmmm... a topic right up my alley -- I'm non-op, been full-time for a year and actively dating for 2 1/2 years.  In that time I've had two relationships lasting over 6 months, dates with 9 different women and had an additional 8 or so romantic interests that never resulted in a date.  I identify as lesbian although I am somewhat bi-curious.  I have only dated women, but have had little problems finding them.

For the most part I just got out there and met people.  I had the benefit of pre-existing connections to the lesbian community.  I got involved in several social groups through the local GLBT community centers and developed friendships there.

What I will say is from my own experience... what has helped me may not be right for you.

My first point of advice: get your own head-space in order.  Be comfortable with yourself both as a person and as a transperson.  Find a place where you can accept your body as it is.  The single most important element in dating, whether trans or not, is to be confident in your self.  A healthy level of self-confidence is fairly universally attractive.  As Sarah said, who you are is 90% of it.

Second: You will encounter three types of people: 1) Folks who will not date a transperson; 2) Folks who will date a transperson 3) Folks that don't know if they will date a transperson.  In my experience the folks in category 1 outnumber the folks in category 3 who outnumber the folks in category 2.  When folks in category 1 or 3 reject you, don't be discouraged... the reality is it takes a special person to see beyond the physical anatomy.  It will take time to find them.

As far as when to tell someone, I tend to be very upfront about my status.  That choice has both good and bad repercussions.  On the plus side I weed out immediately folks where dating me is totally NOT an option.  On the negative side, some folks who might have been ok if they got to know me, opt out before we get to that point.  In my mind, another advantage to early disclosure is I'm starting my connection with the person from a place of honesty... something critical in making any relationship work.

[mina.magpie]

Thanks so much for the tips pheonix.

If I may ask, how early do you disclose? Dating profile/first date kinda thing, or do you give it one or two dates before you do?

Mina.

[pheonix]

Thanks so much for the tips pheonix.

If I may ask, how early do you disclose? Dating profile/first date kinda thing, or do you give it one or two dates before you do?

Mina.

My general rule of thumb is before the first date, often when I'm first meeting the person. 

For more specifics:

When I meet someone at lesbian clubs and events with alcohol, I find it best to disclose early in the acquaintance,  since the level of physical contact at those tends to be somewhat accelerated.  Generally, I'd rather have control over letting that information out rather than have an awkward accidental discovery.

For women I have met through my social circles, I tend to get to know them for two or three times before disclosing my status.  But if they are aggressively pursuing dating me, I will disclose sooner.  That being said, given I don't hide my status in my social circles, it's typically not a surprise when I disclose and they've often weighed that factor in before pursuing me for dating.  My best dating experiences have come through friend of a friend type situations.

I've not really used any web or other dating services so I can't comment on those.

[fae_reborn]

Thanks much for the advise pheonix, it's much appreciated.  I will keep some of what you said in mind.

[imaz]

My best dating experiences have come through friend of a friend type situations.

I've not really used any web or other dating services so I can't comment on those.

Same here.

[Genevieve Swann]

Probably you should disclose yourself as soon as possible and get it out of the way. If the other person accepts you all is well.

[Annwyn]

I think a lot of it is trial and error.  ....  Bisexuals tend to be a natural ally for the non-op.  Just because their attraction is not tied to your genetalia, its tied to who you are. 

Quoted for accuracy.

[Walter]

I've only dated online. There would be no chance of coming into a violent encounter with someone if they found out over the internet. I usually tell them before I even think of becoming "friends" with that person. And for people in real-life well..I haven't had the opportunity to tell anyone

[Annwyn]

I've only dated online.

That is by definition: impossible.  You can't go on a date online.

There would be no chance of coming into a violent encounter with someone if they found out over the internet.

Or kiss, hold hands, cuddle, dance, bang, look into one another's eyes, etc.

I haven't had the guts to tell anyone

Edited for accuracy.

[Walter]

Well what I meant by date was going into a relationship with someone. I always use the word "date" for that. It's out of habit.

The kissing and holding hand thing..has never bothered me while being with someone over the internet

[icontact]

Bisexuals tend to be a natural ally for the non-op.  Just because their attraction is not tied to your genetalia, its tied to who you are.

Being bisexual simply means you are attracted to both genders, and does NOT mean you are pansexual. I am bi and I like downstairs, just on both genders, thankyouverymuch.

[SarahFaceDoom]

That is by definition: impossible.  You can't go on a date online.
Or kiss, hold hands, cuddle, dance, bang, look into one another's eyes, etc.

This is kind of an antiquated view on contemporary human socialism.  Look up Second Life, and what's going on there.

Also some might say that the connection online is somewhat more intense, since generally the focus is on who you are, and not how you look.
Post Merge: July 16, 2009, 03:18:04 AM

Being bisexual simply means you are attracted to both genders, and does NOT mean you are pansexual. I am bi and I like downstairs, just on both genders, thankyouverymuch.

Right, but the odds of finding someone not tied to genitalia is intrinsically higher in the bisexual community.  For a lot of reasons, frankly.  But not the least of which is that there are a lot of people who don't know what the word pansexual means, and so you're often going to find those people most in that community.

Plus if you're using the internet to find someone, there's not a pansexual option on most dating sites, so you're better off going to the bisexuals.

That said, my girlfriend is a lesbian.  So who really knows.  But on the whole I've had much more luck dealing with bisexuals than, by percentage, any other group.  You're actually somewhat of the exception in terms of bisexuals I've dealt with.

[Autumn]

Annwyn put it out there with less sugar coating than I think is appropriate, but it's a dose of realism. A lot of young people, or people with abnormal situations (of which being TS/TG falls under) fall into the online trap.

I've done it. Hell I didn't kiss anyone til I was 20 and that was someone that I'd gotten to know as a friend online for a long time.

But it's not the same thing at all. It really isn't. Second life is not a substitute for real life, and in the long run it just makes you more lonely when you focus your attentions on an escape instead of advancement.

There was a point when just the whole having someone there who cared thing was the world to me, and don't get me wrong, it helped me in my darkest times. But my life got much better once I found real people. Better to make changes to your station and appearance in life rather than your avatar in a game. And better to grow stronger as a person and individual, because there will be plenty of times in your life when you will feel alone and unloved, and you have to learn to deal with that.

The other thing is that fantasies are often just that - fantasies. If significant portions of your development as an individual and in relationships are just fantasies, then when you actually are exposed to them, it may go very differently than you expected. Cybersex in a corset is fun, real sex in a corset is kind of uncomfortable.

[Annwyn]

How could you possibly not kiss someone until age 20?   j/k

I lost my virginity when I was 11 O_O  I think I had my first "gf" in kindergarten.  I can't quite call it that, but I do know we had experimented quite a bit with each other's lips.

If you asked me how many people I've been with, I really couldn't even begin to tell you, or even give a ballpark estimate.  I think I've dated maybe... 100-150 people, only including the relationships that lasted longer than two weeks.

To some that makes me a slut.  To me, it's given me enough confidence to know exactly who I am and be 100% comfortable with my body and to appreciate other people's attraction to my body.  Do I care if they care if I have a penis?  It's there, between my legs.  If someone doesn't like it then obviously it's impossible to get past a certain point in the relationship.  Therefore the obvious solution is to find someone that doesn't mind it or is even minutely attracted to it.


In the end... the penis is just like a vagina.  It's a hotspot for pleasure located between the legs whether on a female or male body.  I don't give a crap if a guy happens to like it more than he would if I had a pussy; as I explore my sexuality as a tgirl, ->-bleeped-<-, transsexual, whatever the hell you wanna call it, I find myself in more and more of a gray area of what's between my legs and more concerned with finding men who want me for my looks, my body, my personality, and yes, what's between my legs.

Frankly... a penis is easier to mess with than a vagina.  If I were a guy and could pick between a gg girl or a tgirl, I'd choose the latter because it's easier to give head that way, and there's no PMSing.

I know a lot of ugly transwomen with a disgust for their genitilia so deep that they have no libido and are paranoid of men having ANY attraction or interest in that part of their bodies, and I know some absolutely stunning transwomen who feel the same.  I also know some pretty ugly ones who love the attention of a man, a ->-bleeped-<-, whatever, and some beautiful ones too.  I know it's a comment that's going to get me a ton of flame, but frankly most of the transwomen I've seen who are fine being chased in their pre-op condition are some of the best looking tgirls I've seen.  These are the women who don't care if they're called a ->-bleeped-<- or a maricone or whatever, as long as the pronouns match and they've got a functional life and a hot boyfriend, or a few of them.

I've had a bit of a new perspective to consider in the past few weeks as I've been doing escort work.  All these guys who are without a doubt 100% heterosexual, willing to pay money to be with a woman with a member.  I mean, frankly it's opened my eyes, and I'm seeing a lot of guys my age just to date now as well, who knows how many as it seems there's a new one everyday.  I have a large selection of athletic, educated and creative young men to pick from eventually just by advertising the peculiar parts of my anatomy.

I mean seriously, if you think a guy who's hitting on you is hitting on you because he's gay or has bisexual tendencies... think again.  You don't have bodyhair, big muscles, overly masculine features.  You're in every way a woman and there's nothing masculine about a transwoman.  Any queer in key west would rather shoot themselves than bang a ->-bleeped-<-, seriously.


So, the purpose of this long rant was... without purpose.  I suppose that all in all, it supported my original conclusion about ->-bleeped-<-s.  Who cares?  Guys like tits and ass, and guess what?  Transwomen have tits and ass, nuff said.

[fae_reborn]

Annwyn, I am finding myself agreeing with much of what you just said, because for the non-op (I believe), what you described is pretty much the dilemma we are faced with: if a man is hitting on us, is it because we have a penis and they are gay/bi?  Or is it because they see us as women?  You summed it up quite nicely, with the latter being true. 

I used to be disgusted with my genitalia, but ever since my Orchi things in my mind have calmed down and I've accepted what I have between my legs.  Does that make it difficult as far as dating is concerned?  Of course, because the large majority of people would be uncomfortable with someone in my situation.  However, that's not to say that an accepting partner isn't out there.  The problem is just finding them, and doing so in a safe manner in order to protect oneself.

Irregardless, for whatever reason a man may be interested in me...it doesn't matter as I consider myself a lesbian and could only see myself with another woman.