Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Estrogen is no longer important in HRT, Spiro is the key?

Started by Dora, April 02, 2009, 11:33:33 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dora

I had my first visit with a "real" gender doctor yesterday. She was pleased with my progress but she also said that I was taking too much estrogen and wanted me to decrease the dosage by half. My dosage is considered within normal boundaries but she said the general way of thinking on HRT for transsexuals is now changing in that it is more important to stop the testosterone production then it is to increase the estrogen level.

I have no problem in doing this as I am concerned about the health risks estrogen brings. However, I am not willing to stop or slow the effects estrogen brings if she is wrong.

Thoughts?
-Dora
  •  

vanna

I have some reservations about that statement, it is infact the other way around for my own case but then she is the doctor not me.

If your levels are a constant female range and feminisation is occuring then yes she is correct to a point. There is no point flooding your system if levels are optimal.

Spiro or any AA as the key though is simply not true in my findings, it is the AA that can be dropped and estrogen that controls your T levels after it has been suppressed long enough. Just stop your AA, check those blood tests and see for yourself depending on delivery method ofcourse as it requires a depo type of hrt.

Long term use of AA is a risk, it is what we do to reclaim our lives.
  •  

Suzy

I think this is a dangerously simplified statement.  It may be true for you, but blanket statements like this bother me.  The key is both.  T needs to be dealt with and E needs to be increased.  Else a body does not feminize.  Not every genetic male has the same level of T either.  I know of one who has to take T shots because of some other medical problems, nothing to do with TG issues at all.  Any good endocrinologist will take your levels and adjust your regimen accordingly.  Else it is all guesswork.

Kristi
  •  

sd

I may be way of, but my understanding was that AA was used to shut down T production, until E took over. Once E has taken over you should need a lot less AA.

Regardless, AA will only stop T, it will not feminize enough to pass. It will leave you stuck in between and going crazy without any other hormone replacement.
  •  

Janet_Girl

My doctor has me on estrogen , Spironolactone, and Proscar.  He goes by my progress and not tests.  I don't think he would do this if it wasn't helpful.

Janet

  •  

Dora

Quote from: Kristi on April 02, 2009, 11:58:26 AM
I think this is a dangerously simplified statement.  It may be true for you, but blanket statements like this bother me.

I don't know if it is true for me, or for anyone else for that matter, hence my posting here what she said. She doesn't want to stop the estrogen, just lower the dosage to a minimum amount (which is below what is generally prescribed for MTFs).

I have a feeling she is coming from a "safety" point of view because she then stated that over the years she has had two patients die, and she now believes they were both estrogen related.

I'm confused because she was highly recommended to me via a local gender center and several sisters there. I still have 7 months on my old prescription so I may just stay on the same dose. Of course that probably rules her out for any future visits.

Dora
  •  

Birdie

My doctor does this for all his patients and has already reduced my E to the minimum amount. There isn't really any way to argue with him either, I don't have any medical knowledge and if I didn't do as instructed I'd probably get kicked out of the gender clinic. It doesn't make any sense to me, because hrt seems to have had very little effect so far, but he's been completely dismissive of taking any path other than the one prescribed to all his patients.
  •  

Dora

Quote from: Laura91 on April 02, 2009, 12:51:22 PM
While I am not a doctor I think that saying that estrogen is somehow not important seems odd.

That was my fault. I was trying to sum up everything she said in 1 sentence. I believe she is saying that Estrogen is not as important as it was thought to be and lowering the testosterone levels and adding a minimal amount of estrogen will get the same results.

Dora
  •  

Ellieka

Take either one of them away from me and I'd probably gouge out the doctors eyeballs with a rusty spork!

I would love to get an orchi soon though because I am concerned about the long term complications from prolonged use of Spiro and I don't know when or if I will ever be able to get full GCS.
  •  

Kara Lee

I remember reading somewhere that there were 2 ideas on this.  One was to not worry as much about e levels but get the t down real low and the other was pretty much the opposite getting the e up and not worrying as much about the t level.  Who knows, it probably should just be a case by case based on what is working for an individual.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin
  •  

Nicky

I think if you trust your gender doctor you should listen to them. If this does not work for you, then you can always up the dose.
  •  

NicholeW.

The sad fact is that very little bio-medical research has been done on the results and optimal regimen for either FTMs or MTFs. For the most part your doctor, pretty much no matter who they are, is reading labs to indicate to them that you are falling into a normal range for non-transitional human beings.

They generally prescribed based on keeping your blood E level in the low-to-mid range levels of what a menstruating female would show on a blood test at ovulation if you're MTF and I'm not at all sure what sort of range they would look at for the guys.

Post SRS/GCS they will drop you, usually, to a post-menopausal level. In other words, you are being treated according to the lab protocols that would be in effect for someone who has two ovaries and adrenal glands producing estrogen around the clock.

When she says she believes that estrogen may have played a role in the deaths she's telling you the absolute truth, I suspect. That she believes that. It's a guess, hunch, fear of hers, not something that is necessarily factual.

Most doctors are going to go for lower ranges because they do not know and seldom do loads of research to find what sorts of regimen tend to be most effective for most women and men. And that's just the abject truth.

This is why it is soooo important to do your own research to at least be able to provide the doctor, yes, even experienced endos, with info that you can find through net searches. You can never do enough research on the drugs you'll be taking.

Just stop and consider this. How many girls do you know who, without high levels of testosterone, begin puberty at age 12 and are post-menopausal by age 14? Now how many MFTs can you find who have had exactly that experience. Yet, that is SOP for most doctors who work with us.

Does it not sound ludicrous on the face of it?

If you are showing no signs of liver, prolactin or any other anomalies that would indicate you are getting "too much estrogen" then I would say you need to argue with your doctor and be able to provide her with some sort of evidence that might alleviate her own fears.

What she's told you that you have related here just is not making sense to me at all. No, I am not a medical professional but I can follow an argument reasonably well. And something smells rotten in Denmark. But not with just your doc, with the field in general. I wonder how many of them have ever thought about a 2 year puberty-to-post-menopause life and how that might affect a body.

Way too many post-ops complain of tiredness, lack of sex drive, etc.... Does it dawn on the docs that they give higher estrogen doses to post-menopausal natal females to combat some of those very symptoms? Now why would someone who operated for years with a high-testosterone level in her body need just two years of estrogen therapy at lower doses?

Puh-leez.

Nichole
  •  

El

Quote from: Laura91 on April 02, 2009, 12:51:22 PM
While I am not a doctor I think that saying that estrogen is somehow not important seems odd. If spiro alone is so important then what happens to the body on a regimen of spiro by itself? Wouldn't the body suffer from the loss of T with no E to take its place?

I might actually be able to help here, when i was 14 i was on a high dose of spiro to help treat my liver condition, whilst on it i experienced lowered sex drive, genital shrinkage *blush*, and it also made my slight gender dysphoria manefest itself more strongly, after stopping taking spiro my sex drive returned (altho not as strong) genitals unshrank, but the dysphoria remained as strong as ever.

Ive never talked to a professional about these issues but i believe being put on spiro during key stages of my development helped created the genderconfused mess you see before you today.
  •  


El

I have, that was on the advice of the doctors of kings college hospital in london which is "Regional and national secondary and tertiary centre for Liver disease and transplantation"
  •  

El

That said they did save my life so i cant complain too much
  •  

NicholeW.

Quote from: MMarieN on April 03, 2009, 08:07:27 AM
I think I would change doctors.

A bit puzzled with that suggestion. Is there some overflow of doctors who work with transsexuals that I am unaware of? Most endos who do work with us also work with fertility clinics and such. They cannot make a living strictly with transsexuals.

The transsexuality is usually a rather small slice of their work. They expend their energy and clinical study on other things, mostly dealing with non-transitional women. If one doesn't do the research herself it very often doesn't get done.

Changing doctors is most likely to find the exact same worries and SOP.

Nichole
  •  

Sandy

I too have heard the rhetoric about dropping the E to post-menopausal levels after 2-3 years.

My surgeon recommended that to me and I will have that discussion with my endocrinologist as well.  My surgeon has dropped her level as well a couple of years ago, though she did not share with me how her energy/libido had been affected.

The rule of thumb with born women is to reduce the essential time they remain on estrogen to the minimum amount to reduce the possibility cancer and other HRT related problems.  Though in the case of WBW many of them may remain on HRT for ten years or more.  And, yes, for that population, it has been statistically proven that the longer they remain on HRT the more likely they are to develop a cancer related illness.

Transsexual HRT, or Contra Hormone Treatment (CHT) as it is sometimes called, has not, to my knowledge, had any statistical study made of its long term effects.  Most physicians I would wager, simply use the born gender rules of thumb and follow with blood tests.  My endocrinologist admitted that he has no statistical information regarding transsexuals and said that trying to keep my hormone levels to those of a similar gender background is the best that he could recommend.

When Christine Jorgensen made her transition, she only had a orchiectomy and penectomy.  She did not have vaginopasty/clitoralplasty, nor did she have any anti-androgens.  The physician who treated her dosed her with an overwhelming amount of estrodial.  Testosterone is a very powerful steroid and it takes quite a bit of estrogen to overcome it.  But it is not the *amount*, but the T/E ratio that really has a contra gender effect.  Once you reduce the T levels with A-A's you can use a much lower amount of E to achieve the same effect.

There has been great progress in the medical support for people like us, but not because medical science has pursued the study of transsexuals.  Rather the general progress of medical science has allowed other medicines to be used effectively to treat our condition.

Face it.  We're still the red-headed step children to the medical community.  And we will continue to be that way for the foreseeable future.

\soapbox

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
  •  

NicholeW.

Quote from: Sandy on April 03, 2009, 09:37:44 AM
Though in the case of WBW many of them may remain on HRT for ten years or more.  And, yes, for that population, it has been statistically proven that the longer they remain on HRT the more likely they are to develop a cancer related illness.
I don't doubt that that is true. Is it also true that WBW who decline HRT also "statistically prove" to be more likely to develop cancer-related illnesses through time as well? If that statistical probablity is there, then it seems to me that solely saying HRT is cancer-producing over time maybe isn't as sure a truth as anything else.

Fact is that medical research into women of all kinds tends to lag well behind research for men of all kinds. Yes, there has been some real progress in reserach related to WBWs and the gap has closed drastically over what it was 30-35 years ago.

And I may be wrong since my memory isn't encyclopedic :laugh: and I am not going to expend the effort to check and be absolutely certain, but I seem to recall that the concerns about estrogen and cancer have declined if the estrogen isn't paired with progesterone simultaneously.

The rest, especially the parts about the development, as a sidelight, (I mean do you really think that is a huge concern for the guys? :) ) of anti-androgens is absolutely true. An excellent post, Sandy.

And you might ask Christine if you're going to be asking why she lowered her dosages to post-menopausal levels? Because she knows something or because she didn't, but is concerned.

Nichole
  •  

MaggieB

I have halved my estradiol dosage at the recommendation of my doctor because I have had an orchi. It has been two months and I have been much more depressed during this time. She indicated that if it did have this effect, that I could go back to the original dosage. 

Note though we all talk ( including the media and doctors) about estrogen as if it is one hormone and one drug. It is not. Most of the medical evidence that condemned "estrogen" is actually a synthetic hormone made from an estrogen like hormone found in pregnant horse urine.  To say that estradiol which is the most potent human estrogen is dangerous when the tests were done on the synthetic variety is an apples and oranges comparison.  It could be a byproduct of the chemical reaction process or another contaminant from the horse urine that is causing cancer and deaths.  There are hundreds of thousands of chemicals in urine and it is impossible to isolate with 100% purity any single one.

That is why I take sublingual Estradiol. The human estrogen. I think I will go back to my prior dose.

Maggie
  •