Question RE: Marriage

[colormyworld]

I've tried to find some info on the internet and on this site, but I haven't come up with anything.

I'm a born female, and my SO is a soon to be starting transition, MTF transgender. We would like to get married some day, but I don't know if that would fall under "same sex marriage" since we will both be female (SO plans on having birth certificate changed to female) or if since we were born opposite sexes, would we be legally allowed to marry? OR, if we get married before the birth certificate is legally changed (which I'm assuming would be legal since we would be opposite sex in the eyes of the law, right?) would the marriage be void once the birth certificate IS changed? 

TIA and I hope this hasn't been asked before, but I couldn't find it.

[TamTam]

As far as I know, as soon as your SO is legally female, the marriage will be void/unable to be performed.   Unless you get married in one of the four states that allow it and/or move to a state that at least recognizes same sex marriages.

[Cindy]

Hi

I think it depends on which country, and in the USA even which state you are in. In Australia the couple are automatically divorced, even if they have no wish to, when the new birt certificate is given. The arguement for is that same sex marriges are not recognised. There is at least one couple I know who have gone through this and she is refusing the new birth certificate because she wishes to stay with her wife. A horrible mean and nasty situation created and maintained by people who have no compassion.

A number of us are trying to lobby Parliment to change this law. And to change the discrimination between same sex marrige generally.

I suggest you consult legal opinion.

Hope it all works out.
Even if you cannot remain married in the eye of the law. Who cares, you love each other and that's what matters.

Love and Hugs

Cindy James

[colormyworld]

Thanks! (even though that isn't the answer I was hoping to get  ) and WOW you all are fast! I know it doesn't really matter if you're married or not, you can be just as much, or MORE in love and just not be married,  but it's a basic human right! I want my rights as an american!  

[Cindy]

I know what you mean and

You don't want these rights as an American. WE need these rights as human beings.

Think what it must be like in fundamentalist socities, as in Southern USA and in other countries.
Tolerance and love tend to be seen in the "odd" groups. I feel for example totally safe going to Gay clubs, I'm not Gay. I am totally frightend of straight clubs. I pass pretty well, and the females accept me, but if a "male" finds out I'm subject to insults, and worse. By something that has the IQ of what it is drinking.

LoL
Cindy James

[colormyworld]

I know what you mean and

You don't want these rights as an American. WE need these rights as human beings.

Yeah, exactly! I just don't get it! I was thinking about this earlier, if two irresponsible people conceive a child together from being stupid, and get married 'because it's best for the child' or 'the right thing to do' even though they don't have feelings for each other, I don't know why 2 people who are deeply in love can't have the same. It's just not right! 

</soapbox>

[V M]

There is a reason marriage is called an institution. But anyone that wants to go for it...please do 

[Starr]

Last year Hypatia and I went to an LGBT conference here in VA. One of the breakout groups was about marriage equality. A lawyer from DC spoke, and this very question was brought up. He said there hasn't really been a firm ruling about this one way or the other in the US. (I think it's kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" sort of thing.)

I know couples who are still legally married after one transitioned. It might be worth a try for you to get married before she transitions. Unfortunately, Hypatia and I won't be able to do this. 

[Windrider]

My understanding, is that (in the US at least) if you are married prior to transition, then you are still married after. If you want to get married after your partner transitions, then you'll need to be in one of the states that recognizes same-sex marriages. I did hear of one case however, where the couple had to have an annulment. Why I have no clue (especially because annulments are religious not legal.)

It gets interesting because of taxes too - the federal gov't has issues with married filing joint and both parties have an F (or Ms).

I'm hopeful that the more states that recognize same-sex marriages and the longer the laws stick around, the more people will all of a sudden realize that gee this did squat to me and soon they will just be ignored. Maybe by that time, the feds will have caught up

WR

[colormyworld]

ooh! Thanks! hopefully we can find a way to make this happen!  Either way, I'm persistent and I'm not going down without a fight!

[Arch]

It gets interesting because of taxes too - the federal gov't has issues with married filing joint and both parties have an F (or Ms).

Whoa. I've never heard of this before. Have you any more information, Windrider? 'Cause I'm thinking about changing my sex markers this year, and it's possible that my partner and I will remain together. We are legally married now. After I change my sex markers, we will both be legally male.

This kind of weird pitfall is one reason I wasn't going to change my sex markers originally. If my partner and I do stay together, I can envision future problems with marriage validity, health and life insurance, Social Security, hospital visitation, and life-and-death decisions like what to do if one of us ever winds up in a coma. The marriage validity issue hasn't gone through the courts yet, so it could go either way when it does.

So if you have more info about the feds and filing joint taxes when both filers have the same legal gender, I would appreciate hearing about anything you know.

[Starr]

Hypatia was able to jointly file her taxes with her wife for last year after she had changed her gender marker. Her SSN has her new name and gender; however, when the refund check came, it had her old name on it. It might have just been a system glitch that allowed the taxes to go through.

Some companies will allow you to carry a same-sex partner on health insurance. You can name anyone on your life insurance, so I think that would be okay, too. The rest...at least there are five places you can go to now to have legal rights.

[Arch]

Hypatia was able to jointly file her taxes with her wife for last year after she had changed her gender marker. Her SSN has her new name and gender; however, when the refund check came, it had her old name on it. It might have just been a system glitch that allowed the taxes to go through.

Some companies will allow you to carry a same-sex partner on health insurance. You can name anyone on your life insurance, so I think that would be okay, too. The rest...at least there are five places you can go to now to have legal rights.

I changed my name a long time ago, so I won't be getting any checks with my old name. I don't know whether the M/M thing is a nonissue with the feds.

If I stay with my partner, my health insurance is covered through his job. But I do worry that if I change my gender marker, the insurance company might be able to make trouble for me.

Plus, when I change my gender marker, I've outed myself to my HMO as trans. I've heard of insurance companies who refused all sorts of procedures because of the insured's trans status, even things that don't seem to have anything to do with transsexuality. Don't know how many of these stories are urban myths or how many of them happened in "less enlightened" times, like ten years ago...are things better or worse now?

Gug. My head hurts.

[Starr]

I changed my name a long time ago, so I won't be getting any checks with my old name. I don't know whether the M/M thing is a nonissue with the feds.

If I stay with my partner, my health insurance is covered through his job. But I do worry that if I change my gender marker, the insurance company might be able to make trouble for me.

Plus, when I change my gender marker, I've outed myself to my HMO as trans. I've heard of insurance companies who refused all sorts of procedures because of the insured's trans status, even things that don't seem to have anything to do with transsexuality. Don't know how many of these stories are urban myths or how many of them happened in "less enlightened" times, like ten years ago...are things better or worse now?

Gug. My head hurts.

Hypatia changed her name a year and a half ago. Have you and your partner filed a joint tax return since you changed your name? Since you don't have to list your gender on your tax form, I think the only thing that would flag it to the IRS would be the name, and they might not even notice that. Your gender marker doesn't show up even on those reports the SSA sends to tell you what you'll be making when you retire, so it might be a non-issue just because it doesn't show up.

I've never heard of insurance companies doing that one way or the other. I have a pretty lenient HMO right now, but I don't know what will happen if I put Hyptatia on my policy. She hasn't had any treatment discrimination from insurance, but she definitely has from doctors, so that's another potential problem. At least that stupid law about doctors being able to refuse treatment based on their "beliefs" has been removed, but you can't legislate attitude. 

[Arch]

Have you and your partner filed a joint tax return since you changed your name? Since you don't have to list your gender on your tax form, I think the only thing that would flag it to the IRS would be the name, and they might not even notice that.

Yeah, I changed my name years ago, and my current (male) name is the only one I've ever used while we've been legally married. We've also filed jointly every year that we've been married. No problems there.

Anyway, I was thinking that colormyworld should seriously consider getting married now, before her partner changes gender markers. At the moment, this looks like their best option. There's no telling how long it will take to iron out all of the legal issues with same-sex marriage. So, why wait? Do it before transition!

[Starr]

Yeah, I changed my name years ago, and my current (male) name is the only one I've ever used while we've been legally married. We've also filed jointly every year that we've been married. No problems there.

Anyway, I was thinking that colormyworld should seriously consider getting married now, before her partner changes gender markers. At the moment, this looks like their best option. There's no telling how long it will take to iron out all of the legal issues with same-sex marriage. So, why wait? Do it before transition!

Yeah, take advantage of any loopholes while you can.  Hypatia and I will have to pack up and move to another state to get married.  So those who can, please go for it!!

[colormyworld]

Good to know that there might be a chance still! Neither of us want a big wedding, and I might have been thinking about this for quite awhile    and planning what ifs.. so this could be doable before we're 'legally' opposite sex.

And thanks to everyone for all your replies, I can't get over how friendly and quick at answering questions, you all are!

[Luc]

Good question, and I think it applies to me as well, in some way.... My wife and I were married 2 1/2 years ago, when she (mtf) was legally male and I (ftm) was legally female. She has since legally changed her name, though not her gender... but in Arkansas, where she was born, she does in fact have the option of changing her gender on her birth certificate, and as far as I'm aware, that's what she intends to do.

I, on the other hand, will never be considered legally male... not unless the laws change. I was born in Ohio, one of only 3 or 4 states in the U.S. that will not change gender on birth certificates. Suppose I can only hope that when and if my wife changes hers, the wonderful US of A doesn't nullify our nuptials.

SD

[Arch]

Colormyworld, you might think about one more thing. I got married in California before gay marriage was briefly legalized and before the marriage forms (at least in some cities) got rid of the gender-specific terms "husband" and "wife."

Now I wish I had waited. I was so humiliated at being designated the wife when I just wanted to be a spouse. It still burns me up, years later. So much that I've considered getting divorced and then getting remarried just so I can fill out a new form. I guess I get hung up on the weirdest things.

But if that sort of thing matters to you--or if you can foresee a time post-transition that it might make a difference--you can consider getting married in a state that does have gay marriage or in a location that has no gender-specific markers on the form you fill out.

[colormyworld]

Good question, and I think it applies to me as well, in some way.... My wife and I were married 2 1/2 years ago, when she (mtf) was legally male and I (ftm) was legally female. She has since legally changed her name, though not her gender... but in Arkansas, where she was born, she does in fact have the option of changing her gender on her birth certificate, and as far as I'm aware, that's what she intends to do.

I, on the other hand, will never be considered legally male... not unless the laws change. I was born in Ohio, one of only 3 or 4 states in the U.S. that will not change gender on birth certificates. Suppose I can only hope that when and if my wife changes hers, the wonderful US of A doesn't nullify our nuptials.

SD

I don't know how someone could be like "Well you can't be married now" You're still the same people who were legally married before and nobody had a problem with it!

Stupid Ohio! (That's where I'm from, too. SO is from Oklahoma) I hope one day you can have your birth certificate reflect who you really are, but if Ohio wants to stay closed minded and not allow that, try not to let it get you down! It's never going to affect the way you feel inside, and that's all that really matters!