Myths of Inclusion: The Vanishing T in GLBT

[Shana A]

Tuesday, April 21, 2009
Myths of Inclusion: The Vanishing T in GLBT
Posted by Sonia at 11:05 PM

http://soniaadeline.blogspot.com/2009/04/myths-of-inclusion-vanishing-t-in-glbt.html

In July of 1969 a "little" riot broke out at the Stonewall Inn lead by Sylvia Rivera, a transgender woman. It's widely recognized that the Stonewall riots kicked off the gay civil rights movement in America; however, what is not well known is that many of those individuals leading the charge against police raids at the Stonewall during the riots were transgender. In the years that followed three transgender people, Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson, and Angela Keyes Davis, played important parts in the organization of the Gay Liberation Front and the Gay Activists Alliance. In 1971, the GAA wrote and introduced a bill to the New York city Council that was meant to protect gay people from discrimination. This bill did not, however, include any protection for transgender individuals. This bill was a major betrayal of the transgender population at the hands of the gay community. Sylvia Rivera, in disgust, said to the leaders of the GAA, "It's not us that they are afraid of — its you! Get rid of us. Sell us out. Make us expendable. Then you're at the front lines. Don't you understand that?"

{EDIT: trim to fit quoting guidelines  =K}

[Steph]

Many who identify as someone included under the TG umbrella wrongly believe that we own much of the freedoms we enjoy to the GLB movement.  In fact the rights we have gained are the result of members of the TG community pushing for inclusion in legislation passed to protect GLB rights.

LH

[placeholdername]

Many who identify as someone included under the TG umbrella wrongly believe that we own much of the freedoms we enjoy to the GLB movement.  In fact the rights we have gained are the result of members of the TG community pushing for inclusion in legislation passed to protect GLB rights.

LH

...which means we still owe much to the GLBT movement because without the GLB you can be damn sure none of that stuff would have passed (at least not in our lifetimes).  I'm not saying that GLB/GLBT as it stands is all roses, but it's mistaken to think that we owe nothing to them.  A more interesting question is whether they feel like they owe something to us?

Then again, the whole thing can be tricky since I guess I'm BT and formerly LT, which only shows that giving T a separate letter is problematic.

[imaz]

Quite frankly none of this surprises me at all.

In my own personal experience I've found that most Gay men whilst paying lip service to solidarity find it hard to hide their contempt if not disgust. With Lesbians I've had a few bad experiences with old style separatists and Janice Raymond fans but generally the majority have been very accepting and indeed the vast majority of my friends are lesbian.

At the end of the day the whole LGBT movement has been hijacked in my very personal opinion by straight acting white Gay males who want to turn it into a right of centre boys' club.

[sd]

A more interesting question is whether they feel like they owe something to us?

Most don't.
In fact several gay friends celebrate the Stonewall Riots as if they were entirely gay.

If you read about it, during the raid gay men were sent home while the trans people were being arrested. This sparked a riot with other trans people nearby and that was when the gays got involved. Had no one raised a stink, the trans people would have been hauled off and no one would have heard anything else about it. It should actually be a trans celebration.

Interesting note as well, it was run by the mob, who tend to kill any gays in their organization.

Like Imaz, I have found the lesbian community very accepting while the gays seem to just tolerate us.

[Hazumu]

There's a pretty good transgender timeline here.

=K

[NicholeW.]

Quite frankly none of this surprises me at all.

In my own personal experience I've found that most Gay men whilst paying lip service to solidarity find it hard to hide their contempt if not disgust. With Lesbians I've had a few bad experiences with old style separatists and Janice Raymond fans but generally the majority have been very accepting and indeed the vast majority of my friends are lesbian.

At the end of the day the whole LGBT movement has been hijacked in my very personal opinion by straight acting white Gay males who want to turn it into a right of centre boys' club.

I'll cosign every last word of that. The only lesbians I have ever had problems with, and they were all internal problems as the lesbians in question didn't seem to realize I was a transitioned woman, were with "Second Wave" older lesbians who had their ideas about TS formed by Ms. Raymond and Ms. Mary Daly in the late-70s.

The straight-looking/acting gay males are an entirely different story and their concerns are all about "dragging people's view of me down with your very existence." Not so different, actually, than some of the "true" transsexual stuff some of my sisters proclaim loudly. 

Nichole

Nichole

[imaz]

I'll cosign every last word of that. The only lesbians I have ever had problems with, and they were all internal problems as the lesbians in question didn't seem to realize I was a transitioned woman, were with "Second Wave" older lesbians who had their ideas about TS formed by Ms. Raymond and Ms. Mary Daly in the late-70s.

The straight-looking/acting gay males are an entirely different story and their concerns are all about "dragging people's view of me down with your very existence." Not so different, actually, than some of the "true" transsexual stuff some of my sisters proclaim loudly. 

Nichole

Nichole

Thank you, your last sentence make an excellent point

[tekla]

whole LGBT movement has been hijacked in my very personal opinion by straight acting white Gay males who want to turn it into a right of centre boys' club.

I doubt they were hijacked.  I think they were always pretty much right there.  In many cities gay organizations functioned more as Gay Chambers of Commerce then any sort of political deal.  One of the first big fights in SF and elsewhere was over housing rights, and that's a discussion that's limited to people who can afford to buy a house in SF in the first place. 

[GinaDouglas]

What we really have to note here is that hostility from outside promotes internal unity.

Back in the day, societal hostility was more intense.  This drove the LGBT community to overlook differences among us, for the sake of unity.

Today, with growing acceptance from society, LBGT coalition is starting to come apart from the inside.

Gay men and lesbians never had much in common, besides societal antipathy.  Gay men are about sex, and lesbians are about relationships.  Both groups think Bisexuals are dabblers, and none of three groups understand transgender.

There is a great deal of misogyny amongst gay men, and many lesbians are man-haters.  This gives both groups reason to dislike transgender.  Many gay men see us as women, and many lesbians see us as men.  Then, if we are bi or gay on top of being trans, that throws even more people for a loop.

In the future, we have to be prepared to be excluded from the gay rights movement, which will probably splinter into seperate male and female movements.

[placeholdername]

Gay men are about sex, and lesbians are about relationships.  Both groups think Bisexuals are dabblers, and none of three groups understand transgender.

There is a great deal of misogyny amongst gay men, and many lesbians are man-haters.

I'm sorry but this is a load of prejudiced crapola.  If this is how we're going to talk about them, then I can't blame them for wanting to exclude us.

[NicholeW.]

... Gay men are about sex, and lesbians are about relationships.  Both groups think Bisexuals are dabblers, and none of three groups understand transgender.

There is a great deal of misogyny amongst gay men, and many lesbians are man-haters.  This gives both groups reason to dislike transgender.

I'm sorry but this is a load of prejudiced crapola.  If this is how we're going to talk about them, then I can't blame them for wanting to exclude us.

Well, I'm not certain I'd refer to it exactly in that way, but I can see where Ketsy's coming from.

Just wondering, GinaDouglas, if you have any experiential knowledge of such matters or if this is a sort of "trans-accepted wisdom?"

I do find that among straight-acting gay males there's the "ewww" factor involved with not only their notions about "trans" but also with their notions of "effeminate gay men" and Butch lesbians, particularly. But even then not all of the straight-acting gay males I know fit that frame either.

I think that maybe the largest reason for ongoing fault-lines in the "coalition" is that we are mostly so unwilling to actually discover the people we talk about in the other wings of the coalition. We rely on "accepted wisdom" which seems mostly just "accepted" without partaking of "wisdom" much at all.

Perhaps the nuance in your statement comes with "some" and "many" but on it's face I think you're going to find people reading past those words and seeing "most" or even "all."

In my experience with non-queer TSes I have discovered a lot of what seems to be homophobia based on ignorance of what queer-folk are actually like and how "they" think at all.

A sword tends to cut and to approach the factions in a coalition with swords drawn seems a good way to have a bloodbath rather than a meeting of minds. But, that's just me.


Nichole

[GinaDouglas]

Just wondering, GinaDouglas, if you have any experiential knowledge of such matters or if this is a sort of "trans-accepted wisdom?"

I have a great deal of experiential knowledge, having been involved in the gay community in 6 different states.  There are exceptions to everything, but I stand by my statements.  Gay men are gay because they want to have sex with men, but lesbians are lesbians because they want to be in a relationship with a woman.  It's apples and oranges.

[imaz]

Some is the missing word there Gina...

[placeholdername]

I have a great deal of experiential knowledge, having been involved in the gay community in 6 different states.  There are exceptions to everything, but I stand by my statements.  Gay men are gay because they want to have sex with men, but lesbians are lesbians because they want to be in a relationship with a woman.  It's apples and oranges.

So if gay men just want to have sex with gay men, why are so many of them fighting for the right to get married?  You can stand by whatever you want but I still call BS.  If you want to say that the gay men *you know* want sex and the lesbians *you know* want relationships, then I have no objection, but to proclaim these demeaning generalities about whole groups of people *you've never met* is the very definition of prejudice and I would appreciate if you keep that to yourself.

[NicholeW.]

I have a great deal of experiential knowledge, having been involved in the gay community in 6 different states.  There are exceptions to everything, but I stand by my statements.  Gay men are gay because they want to have sex with men, but lesbians are lesbians because they want to be in a relationship with a woman.  It's apples and oranges.

In light of what you say in your posts I am wondering which six states, luv? And if you were in the "gay" community or in mostly "trans" venues. Just something in the posts that seems more atavistic than knowledgable is all.

Nichole

[GinaDouglas]

Michigan, New York, New Jersey, North Carolina, Pennsylvania and Colorado.  Only NY had a TV/TS bar.  Last year I was one of the coordinators of the Pridefest celebration in Colorado Springs.  The hostility between gay men and lesbians was palpable, including a lesbian boycott of the performances and a nasty confrontation at the parade.