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Transvestism is a choice !!!!!

Started by Deborahx, May 09, 2009, 06:00:17 PM

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Julie Marie

I don't really care what the so called experts say because most of them are not transgendered.  They listen to what we say and make their determinations which are influenced by their own bias.  Few people can make an interpretation without their bias influencing them at least a bit.  I have yet to meet one who can.  Besides, if I want to know something about trans people I'll go the real experts, the ones who teach the so called experts, other trans people.

We do have a choice in everything we do but there are consequences.  When we weigh those consequences we make the decision that is right for us.  Many people who identify as crossdressers are really transsexual but they have weighed the consequences of transitioning and choose to identify themselves as crossdressers. 

It's a mind game of sorts. 

The fear of what could happen if they transition is so great they actually convince themselves they aren't transsexual.  But I have heard these people, when they are tired or depressed, admit they are TS but don't have the courage to transition.  Once out of their slump they return to proclaiming they are CD.

If one was capable of truly separating the TSs from the CDs then you might be able to get inside the true CDs mind and find out what the consequences of not crossdressing would be for them.  And then you can come to a better understanding if the choices they make are a need or the lesser of two evils.

Transsexuals often say if they don't transition they will die, or will want to.  We could say transitioning is a choice but so is death.  It depends how much importance you place on each action.  Is life better than death?  It's a pretty universal opinion that yes, life is better than death.  What's amazing is some of us have to impress on our loved ones that's how we feel before they will come around to support us. 

Crossdressing typically doesn't have the same level of desperation but there are consequences that are very real and very damaging if the crossdresser abstains for too long.  Society may not agree these consequences justify breaking such a major taboo, so getting support or understanding is more difficult than for the TS who says I can't live like this anymore.  But the need to crossdress is very real and, for the true crossdresser, will never go away.  Remove the societal taboos and watch how many men start wearing clothes made for women.  I think we'd all be shocked.

I'm 58 years old and I've studied this all my life.  No doubt, if I were to sit in a room with the top experts I can tell them things they never heard or knew.  I'm sure many here can say the same thing.  Society programs us from the earliest age and that makes it very difficult for us to get in touch with our true feelings.  We've been brainwashed and we feel guilty simply because society refuses to accept some people are different.  Only when you reject transgender as being taboo can you begin to feel free to be yourself.  You'll still have to face an unaccepting society though.

Let's face it, does someone who likes to fly model airplanes or scale Mt. Everest or join a chess club have to answer the question "is this a choice or a need?"  No.  Because all those things are socially acceptable.  Change the social acceptance of being TG and you'll eliminate the problems society has with it and end the need for millions of people to try to be something they are not.

Julie
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Maebh

Quote from: Deborahx on May 12, 2009, 06:16:31 AM
I am referring to either or. Transvestism and or Cross-dressing / crossdresser.


Hi Deborah

I totally agrees with you. I am absolutly delighted that you were able to make it clear to him that, by using such a simplistic divide:

QuoteThe chart that was shown by the Doc in class gave a clear divide.On one side it read (exactly):
Transsexual Women MtoF, Transsexual Men Fto M, Intersex people.

On the other it read:
Androgyne people non-binary gender, Crossdressing people / Transvestism

The differences being, the first group dont have a choice whereas the the second group do (????)

his understanding and teaching not only didn't cover the full spectrum of experience of transgendered people and the full range of reason why people would outwardly dress and behave as the opposite gender to their biologicaly assigned sex but was also very counter productive. I personally (and I am sure countless others will) want to thank you and commend you on your facts based clarity and understanding, your courage to challenge his assumptions and your ability to change his outlook. :eusa_clap:

After hearing of so many terrible experiences of TG people at the hand of self proclaimed, so called "trangenderism experts" it is uplifting and heart warming to know that there are people like you out there, ready to truely listen to us and challenge the dominant misconceptions about our conditions. Our Northern Brothers and Sisters are so lucky to have such a clear and commited champion like you on their side in their struggle for understanding, acceptance and expression.  :D

Go raibh míle maith agat:icon_hug:  Bail ó Dhia ort:-*

Buckets of LLL&R
Maebh

PS. Julie Mary everything you say is so true and make so much sense. You put it so beautifully and clearly that I wish more would listen to what you have to say.
LLL&R
Maebh

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Nigella

Isn't it nice to have a debate and discussion without personal attacks.
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Jaimey

Quote from: Deborahx on May 12, 2009, 06:16:31 AM
On one side it read (exactly):
Transsexual Women MtoF, Transsexual Men Fto M, Intersex people.

On the other it read:
Androgyne people non-binary gender, Crossdressing people / Transvestism

The differences being, the first group dont have a choice whereas the the second group do (????)

I think there are some misconceptions in the two groupings.  Perhaps we should use the terms transsexual, transgender, and cross-dresser?  :-\  The non-binary genders are gender identities.  As far as my understanding goes, I wouldn't consider "cross-dresser" to be a gender identity.  And perhaps we can say there are different types of cross-dressers.  There may be some cross-dressers for whom cross-dressing is strictly sexual and for others, it may not be.  I would imagine it depends on the individual.

Basically, these aren't black and white terms.  I'd agree that it's never a choice though.  In the grand scope of things, we want our lives to go as smoothly as possible, so I have trouble believing that anyone would choose to be a cross-dresser, transgender, or transsexual.  :)
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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chrysalis

Personally I don't think my crosdressing/TG whatever you call it is a choice. If it was possible to do away with it I'm sure I would have found it by now. Too many years have been spent hating and berating this part of me, and I've found that acceptance has been the most psychologically healthy decision.

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Constance

To me, transvestism is not a choice, even if it is considered a sexual fetish.

I've yet to meet a person who could honestly say that they choose what sexually arouses them. They might be able to choose to control the arousal response, but that's not the same thing.

But, that's just my POV.

Just Kate

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on May 18, 2009, 09:53:14 AM
To me, transvestism is not a choice, even if it is considered a sexual fetish.

I've yet to meet a person who could honestly say that they choose what sexually arouses them. They might be able to choose to control the arousal response, but that's not the same thing.

But, that's just my POV.

One can become sexually attracted to anything they fixate on during sexual arousal and doubly so with orgasm.  There might be a genetic predisposition to be attracted to things (such as women's attire, shoes, etc) but through conditioning, we can become aroused by anything.  The more often we associate sexual feelings with the stimulus, the stronger the link becomes, the more it becomes "not a choice".
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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Hypatia

Quote from: interalia on May 18, 2009, 10:37:39 AM
One can become sexually attracted to anything they fixate on during sexual arousal and doubly so with orgasm.  There might be a genetic predisposition to be attracted to things (such as women's attire, shoes, etc) but through conditioning, we can become aroused by anything.  The more often we associate sexual feelings with the stimulus, the stronger the link becomes, the more it becomes "not a choice".

Are you suggesting indirectly that homosexual orientation is covered by this theory too? That by un-associating sexual feelings with stimulus from the same sex, and forming new associations of sexual feelings with the opposite sex, a gay person can be made hetero?
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Just Kate

Quote from: Hypatia on May 18, 2009, 11:20:55 AM
Are you suggesting indirectly that homosexual orientation is covered by this theory too? That by un-associating sexual feelings with stimulus from the same sex, and forming new associations of sexual feelings with the opposite sex, a gay person can be made hetero?

Not exactly, though such a study would be interesting.  I am specifically talking about paraphillias (which exclusively relate to non-human objects).
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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Natasha

#29
QuoteTransvestic fetishism is a sexual fetish for the clothing of the opposite gender. It is one of a number of cross-dressing behaviours and is primarily a psychiatric term.

http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism

QuoteWhereas Fetishism is the sexual arousal by inanimate objects, transvestic fetishism is the sexual arousal by clothing worn by the opposite sex. In most cases, this involves female clothing.

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/transfetish.htm





links repaired as per new TOS. --Nichole
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NicholeW.

Well, I'm sure that the final word on anything is a Wikipedia-type article that's about as good as the writer wants it to be and comes equipped (until it's changed by someone else) with the prejudices of the writer as well as how much or little research they have bothered to do.

QuoteIt is important to distinguish between cross dressing for sexual as opposed to non-sexual arousal purposes. Only if it is done for sexual arousal, would it classify as transvestic Fetishism Otherwise, without the fetishistic component, it is not a paraphilia.

http://www.forensicpsychiatry.ca/paraphilia/transfetish.htm

OF course this definition may well be changed provided the catch-all strain currently proposed by Blanchard is accepted by the APA, which may be a lesser than one thinks chance at this point. It's beginning to look as if Blanchard and Zucker are carrying forward a "war" by psychiatric means against their institution and against all of the groups that fall under the vague umbrella "Transgender."

I get the feeling that their colleagues maybe see that a bit better than the warriors see it and the colleagues may well send the warriors back to the drawing board before accepting any definitional changes.

If they don't and allow Blanchard's proposed language the DSM-V will become even more ignored than it currently is (which is quite a bit by practioners who actually do the evaluations of the people who present to them) when it comes to "sex-changes."

As the Toronto doctor points out, presentation without some significant impairment for what is termed "transvestic fetishism" isn't an every day occurrence, in fact it's extraordinarily rare, much rarer than is "transsexualism." That makes it very rare indeed (kinda like Kaposi's Sarcoma was extraordinarily rare prior to the first stages of the HIV-disease epidemic) as whatever sexual arousal's there is prolly done in privacy and not talked about.



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jillblum

Since I was a kid dressing up felt good. Through my teens and twenties I always kept lingerie and girly clothes etc... Of course being in bands also made it really easy for me to wear gender neutral clothes and femme hairstyles. Prior to coming out (in my 30's) I tried to reign it in a bit an be societies ideal. (Yuck)
Now I'm out to my partner and in therapy. I'm super happy and excited about transition. Starting electro etc..
I've noticed sometimes lately dressing up sucks. It doesn't fool me anymore. I guess it reminds me that right now I'm still only mentally female. Don't get me wrong this girl loves her makeup and pretty clothes;D But I almost feel "fake" dressing up because I have to deal with all the illusion stuff. ie breasts not there yet, facial hair! (which I have always hated). I guess this is a normal part of transition? I feel like "I'm sitting in this waiting room and each little step of outward change will take me closer to getting "called". I guess I'm REALLY impatient right now. I'm reeling from the lack of fear I've been feeling about my identity as a trans woman. I just want my body now. (And quitting smoking is making me an emotional wreck.)
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Deborahx

Many thanks for your replies girls it is much appreciated!!
this is probably not the right place for this, forgive me, i am new to this site ;-)
But how and when am I able to complete a profile?
Hugs,
Deborahx
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charis

Quote from: Deborahx on May 23, 2009, 07:13:52 PM
But how and when am I able to complete a profile?

I'm completely new here so not really able to give advice - but it happens to be because of that I just read the "rules" pages. According to this:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,114.0.html

you need 15 posts.
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xsocialworker


Think about this. I believe that if our culture allowed males ( since that seems to the overiding cases here) the freedom to wear feminine clothes, dresses, make-up, long hair not just in a ponytail, carry a bag, etc--------without any more stigma or negative consequenses than women usually have in wearing pants, no make-up, and short hair on the job, in office, or anywhere. Think Janet Napolitano our new director of Homeland Security. Janet Reno?  I believe that "cross-dressing" would make no more difference to the new generations not burdened with this history of analysis and censure. Why should wearing a pretty dress be an event if you can do it everyday?

I went F/T in 2001 and I admit getting all femmed up still is fun. But then for over 50 years I had to listen to the gender police propaganda telling me that I was all screwed up. So of course it is still fun cause I had to hide behind a facade of being an old hippie till I just got sick of it and transitioned.


Post Merge: May 24, 2009, 08:41:56 AM

I see the "problem" of gender varient behavior as political. What if hunters had to have a year of counseling before they could wear blaze orange jump suits ( might be a good plan).  Make any behavior a burdened with psychological baggage and of course it becomes a pathology.
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jillblum

Great wisdom xsocialworker!
You certainly haven't lost your hippy sensibility. Since this post I have had several powerful things happen in my transition: I had a consult for hair restoration. It went very well. My prognosis gave me new perspective on my physical outcome. Through my hair Dr. I met a transwoman who has had the procedure and is fulltime. We are becoming friends. It has had a profoundly positive effect on my self esteem.
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xsocialworker

When many teen-age boys begin cross-dressing in private, they find it very erotic. Research shows this initial rush goes away with time and cross-dressing either becomes something that brings a feeling of peace, or it becomes very boring and you have to move on to a medical transition. I found dressing in private totally pointless and I had to take it to the streets. Now that I am a F/T female in body ,mind, and spirit---------- i get no erotic charge from wearing brown pants and a button down shirt. Does that mean I'm not a CD anymore? :'(
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Just Kate

Quote from: xsocialworker on May 24, 2009, 08:41:39 PM
When many teen-age boys begin cross-dressing in private, they find it very erotic. Research shows this initial rush goes away with time and cross-dressing either becomes something that brings a feeling of peace, or it becomes very boring and you have to move on to a medical transition. I found dressing in private totally pointless and I had to take it to the streets. Now that I am a F/T female in body ,mind, and spirit---------- i get no erotic charge from wearing brown pants and a button down shirt. Does that mean I'm not a CD anymore? :'(

I have seen this trend, but I wasn't aware of any research to back it up save the stuff by Lawrence et al.  I'd be very interested to learn more about the pattern of behavior you describe above.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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xsocialworker

Your blog is very interesting and certainly is valid for you. I remember feeling like I should be a girl as early as five years old , long before I faced ugly confrontations with bullies or the gender police running the decadent and corrupt school system I attended. I know it was five years old because I had this epiphany while being taken with my father to buy a brand new 1950 Chevy and I was five in 1950-------god I'm old. In 1952, I wanted Stevenson to win the Presidency and I knew I was also a  "liberal". I had a pay a price for both identities !

Post Merge: May 25, 2009, 08:37:14 AM

I just realized that you are from a Mormon background. I can only imagine the conflicts that creates as I am a Reform Jew and they have no position on GID that I know about.

Post Merge: May 25, 2009, 09:42:44 AM

My battles were not religious as I simply don't care about any of them. My struggles were against other boys trying to prove they were not sissies ( the word then) by harrassing people like me and the school system that had the gall to tell me how to dress , how to wear my hair, expecting me to participate in religious and patriotic nonsense, and take phys-ed with boys. Fortunately I circumvented all the rules. GID forced me to be devious and conniving in a way I might not have been if I had been able to be myself. I began to see life as a contest against the "man" because I knew I didn't fit in to his little world.


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tekla

When many teen-age boys begin cross-dressing in private, they find it very erotic.

Exactly what doesn't cause teen age boys to pop a boner?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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