The Bathroom Debate - Who's Rights Matter Most?

[tekla]

Well most places in the US don't have a bathroom law per se, people are arrested under various public indecency, creating a disturbance/nuisance, disturbing the peace statutes.

[Venus]

One person told me an interesting spin on this topic and I think it has more to do with safety than being different(trans).

A man dressed as a woman went into the woman's bathroom waited, raped a woman and then left still dressed as a woman.  Was this person a MTF?  NO!  Just a pervert who used an opportunity to his own advantage.  Do these sick people ruin it for all MTF's using a woman's room who might have non-womanly parts?  Yes!  Is it fair?  No!  That is the reality of the way life is right now.

My only personal thought on this subject is that I am a woman and have used the men's room dressed as a women several times so I guess I owe them (men) an apology???

[Teknoir]

It's all well and good to say "use what you present as", but an FTM who doesn't pass 100% may not have the best of luck with that.

"If you've got nothing to swing, then you can't be with Bing!" - Kryten, Red Dwarf.

Ok, in a perfect world there would be an "other" room, and people would be more understanding - but this is reality and I'd prefer not to get punched. I don't use public loos, which is possible if you plan your fluid intake accordingly.

[Virginia87106]

Men nod in greeting, women smile.

[Julie Marie]

I grew up with four sisters.  I heard both of my parents, my mother especially, warn my sisters time and time again to be careful in the presence of men.  As TamTam said, women are very vulnerable in public bathrooms, and I wholly agree. 

Every woman has right to ensure her safety.  The concept of a penis as a weapon may seem a bit far fetched but if you consider the motive of a rapist is to find a vagina to stick his penis in then it doesn't seem so far fetched.  I know women who will say outright they don't feel safe when they know a penis is in their bathroom. 

Men are typically stronger than woman and can usually overpower them.  I fully understand any fear a woman might have of that happening.  I've been full time over a year and post-op a few months and even I feel a bit uncomfortable when I know there's a man in the restroom.  Maybe it's my mom's voice in my head, I don't know, but I do know when I feel uncomfortable.

If we lived in a world where everyone was kind and thoughtful and no one posed a threat to anyone else this would be a no-brainer.  But we don't.

Julie

[cindianna_jones]

One person told me an interesting spin on this topic and I think it has more to do with safety than being different(trans).

A man dressed as a woman went into the woman's bathroom waited, raped a woman and then left still dressed as a woman.  ...

This is the right wing crap used to scare most people into denying basic rights to those of us who are different. As far as I know, there are no documented cases of such abusive behaviour. There might be one or two out there.

When it comes to rest rooms.... I don't care who is next to me in the next stall.... I'm embarrassed.

But what is this thing that we have about separate bathrooms anyway?  It is purely social.  Should'nt the stalls provide enough minimal privacy to protect from peepers?  Here in CA, a man can accompany a disabled woman into the women's rest room.  OMG!  It's the respectable answer to a real problem.

You know.... I think that our government could save a LOT of money by letting anyone use the restrooms of their choice. I think that they should all be unisex.  After all... stink is stink and has no gender.

Cindi

[Lisbeth]

To me, He/she who NEEDS to go, that's who's rights come first.
If you gotta go you gotta go.
If you start telling ppl they can't "go" here or there or everywhere, you'll end up with pee on the floor.

In Ontario Canada, as far as I know, there are no bathroom laws save for one.  The only bathroom law I know of is that it is illegal to refuse to allow someone to use the washroom. 

Very similar to the way Minnesota law is written. Everyone must have equal access to public facilities. Everyone has to be given a reasonable place to go.

[kody2011]

presenting as girl- use the girls room

presenting as boy- use the boys room

just my oppinion...

[Steph]

As I see it we are looking at this issue with a transsexual bent.  We know we are not dangerous, weird, perverted etc, but the trouble is that many none TS people don't see it that way cause they know nothing of who we are.

I have had the pleasure/misfortune to use many washrooms in many different countries and for the most part I have noted that in the "mens" guys go in do their business and leave.  There's no interaction with other users, or very little; there is this stigma about talking to other guys with your dick in your hand.

However, in the "ladies" it's completely the opposite.  Women will socialize in the washroom.  "I love those shoes", "What's that lip gloss you're using?" "I love that perfume." "Oh god! you wouldn't have a tampon I could use would you? (Yes it happened)" and of course "Can you pass me some toilet paper?"  SO when you are ready to go full time, be prepared.

So what's the point?  Well for me and MtF I think it is incumbent for us to do our best to blend in and be the women we long to be recognized as.  It is naive of us to think that GG should accept dicks in places they consider to be female domains.

-={LR}=-

[xsocialworker]

I have always used the female bathroom from day one of going F/T. I figured that if I was too nervous to do this , maybe I needed to resonsider my goals.

[sneakersjay]

I've used the men's room as soon as I felt it was safe to do so, meaning I was passing more than not.  It so happened that coincided with a trip to AZ, where I was read as male far more consistently than home in the North East!  Huge confidence boost.  Now I'm consistently read as male, so I wouldn't dare try to use the ladies' room!

Pre-everything, I did get odd looks in the ladies' room in KY -- I was just starting transition, had chopped off my hair.  But it was 'that time of the month' and while I had planned on using the men's room, I didn't dare with that going on.  Glad I waited; and it was perfect timing when I did.


Jay

[kae m]

One person told me an interesting spin on this topic and I think it has more to do with safety than being different(trans).

A man dressed as a woman went into the woman's bathroom waited, raped a woman and then left still dressed as a woman.

But see, that's a completely silly argument.  Is this suggesting that someone who is going to go out and brutally attack someone is going to think "well so much for that, it's against the law for me to go into that bathroom, so I'll have to go knit a sweater instead of raping someone"?  Cindi already said it, this is just typical nonsense being spouted by bigoted fundies to try to scare people into thinking like them.  Could something like that story actually happen?  Of course, but the whole argument is flawed.  If someone is determined to commit a violent crime, a law about who can be in which bathroom will do nothing to stop them.  Like the vast majority of far-right wing nuts' arguments, it doesn't stand up if you spend more than 10 seconds thinking about it rather than relying entirely on extremely twisted interpretations of ancient religious texts.

The problem with these "least astonishment" rules is that they are very much subjective.  What's the definition of presenting male or female, and how do you quantify enough characteristics to know when you cross over that invisible line?

[V M]

Several places in Calif. have restrooms that are either or. Whether you wear the pants or the dress in your ideal 

On a funny note... I used the "mens" room at a grocery store. Then I noticed people looking at me and talking about the lady that just used the "mens" room 

[Jeatyn]

I get funny looks in either bathroom depends on how the moon is aligned or something I dunno

[Arch]

Hmmm...a transsexual woman (regardless of SRS status) is supposed to use the bathroom of her gender identification provided she presents and behaves as female while she is there.  If you're using the ladies room and you're pre-op, be a lady and act like one.  Don't do things a lady wouldn't do like urinating standing up where other women can see your feet pointing the toilet bowl, for instance.  It's totally disrespectful & offensive.  I say this because in the past I saw someone doing exactly that in a public ladies room. 

Hunh. I used to use the women's bathroom and pee standing up. Did it for quite a long time when I was younger. It kept me from going bonkers. And women can use appliances (or go appliance-less) and pee standing up...is that a problem?  And when I use the men's room, should I feel obligated to stand even though I have no penis and am much more likely to wet myself because I'm out of practice at peeing while standing?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious, by the way. I'm really curious to see what people think. I believe that people ought to be able to pee any way they want, regardless of their equipment, and a big part of me doesn't care whether other people are offended by that...obviously, since I was standing to pee in the women's restroom long ago.

Edited to add: of course, I'm a bit off the topic you were on...I know it makes sense for a preop MTF to pee sitting down, but I don't like having anyone dictate to me how I evacuate my own bodily wastes. I'm sort of pigheaded that way.

[V M]

When I was younger there was a hill that was nick named "Party Mtn" for obvious reasons. There was a cliff side area where guys would go pee off the cliff. One time while peeing I noticed someone walk up and start peeing nearby. When I looked to see who it was, to my surprise, it was a girl. She laughed at my surprised expression and we both went back and got to know each other rather well. I didn't know such a thing was possible until then 

[Mister]

Hmmm...a transsexual woman (regardless of SRS status) is supposed to use the bathroom of her gender identification provided she presents and behaves as female while she is there.  If you're using the ladies room and you're pre-op, be a lady and act like one.  Don't do things a lady wouldn't do like urinating standing up where other women can see your feet pointing the toilet bowl, for instance.  It's totally disrespectful & offensive.  I say this because in the past I saw someone doing exactly that in a public ladies room. 

So by this logic, one should not use a men's room 'til he is able to stand and urinate?  Does this include the use of a device designed to help you do so or only after the urethra is surgically altered?

[Kara]

You know what's great? I found a bathroom at my college cafeteria that is both for men and women. Either can go in. I'm thinking of using that one a lot this year. 

[Nero]

I sit. Doesn't bother me. It's easier and it's what my body was designed to do.
So far, haven't cared about standing. If I ever feel the need, I'll get a STP.
But just never cared about that sort of thing. I got to go, I use the quickest, easiest method.

[Ms Bev]

If you are pre-op but presenting in your preferred gender.........

You are a GG and don't want a penis in the bathroom.  Or you are a GM and don't want a vagina in the bathroom.

Who's rights come first?

Oh boy, oh girl....another pee discussion....

The 'peeing', or the 'needing-to-pee'  individual's rights come first, given they are, or are trying to look like, sound like, and behave like the pee-ers who regularly use the facility.

If you're worried for some reason, and your ID has a female/male gender marker on it that indicates your current gender identity....STOP worrying, sit, or use your pack-n-pee, and.....pee.

Next question....suppose I gotta poop??