The Bathroom Debate - Who's Rights Matter Most?

[Julie Marie]

If you are pre-op but presenting in your preferred gender you want to be able to use the appropriate bathroom.

But say you're non-trans person and know a pre-op trans person is using the same bathroom as you and you are bothered by the fact you have different genitals. 

You are a GG and don't want a penis in the bathroom.  Or you are a GM and don't want a vagina in the bathroom.

Who's rights come first?

I know this can be an explosive subject but both sides have merit.  I respect both sides and find it hard to take sides.

Julie

(For the record, when I was at work and pre-op, I used a remote bathroom almost no women in the office used.  I felt uncomfortable using the office bathrooms.)

[Autumn]

I've recently been trying to look up laws for this, and I may just be stupid, but I cannot find information via google or our wiki.

When I saw my therapist, she told me that I should stop using the mens' room with the way I look because it isn't safe. I haven't had anything except guys walk in, walk out, check the door, walk in, walk out, check the door again, then go about their business. I've gotten to the point where I just say 'Right one' when they start to leave.

I saw something about a 'rule of least astonishment' where employers had to allow pre-ops to use their presentation-gender's restroom because wearing a skirt in the mens' room or seeing a man in the ladies' room is more socially astonishing. But it's impossible to find concrete information.

I've never used the ladies' room since I was a child with my mother, and I don't feel comfortable doing it, at the moment, without a carry letter.

I think if you are really presenting and passable in both your appearance and communication skills, then it should be allowed in public RR. In private RR (such as place of employment), I agree with least astonishment.

[Mister]

A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.

[TamTam]

Well, here is my opinion on things, as a gg.

If someone walks into the bathroom who looks like, or is presenting as female, I'm perfectly comfortable.  It's not the genitals that bother me really, it's the presentation.  As long as you're somewhere on some kind of female spectrum, I'm not uncomfortable.

However, one time I was using a gender neutral bathroom with stalls, and a man walked in and used the stall next to me.  [I knew it was a man because I heard him speaking as he walked in, and then I saw his sneakers and the bottom of his pants and he peed standing up.]  I felt very uncomfortable.  And I actually thought about why I felt so uncomfortable, as I was sitting there [I waited for him to leave because it would have been really awkward to wash my hands next to him.  I didn't know if he even knew I was there.].  It wasn't something I would have expected to bother me so much.

I came to the conclusion that it was the fact that I was not used to being in that situation and it made me feel, instinctively, a little unsafe.  Women are very vulnerable in public bathrooms.  "Don't go to the bathroom by yourself because a creepster might hit you over the head and rape you or peek under the door at you."  It's pounded into our heads so we can be a little paranoid.  But I didn't get upset because it was a gender neutral bathroom.  I had to suck it up, there was nothing I had the right to even complain about.

Anyway, I feel like women, any women, have the simple right to use the bathroom.  When it comes to safety, I think whoever is in the most danger has the most rights- as in, real danger trumps mere personal discomfort.  In most situations, a transwoman would be in the real danger- if she was forced to use the men's bathroom, all hell would break loose.  It wouldn't be 'discomfort,' it would be the risk of bodily harm and the ruin of a reputation.  On the other hand, any discomfort a gg might feel at having a transwoman use their bathroom would only be perceived danger, not real danger.  So the gg would have to suck it up.  I would tell her, "this person is a woman, therefore she will use the woman's bathroom.  If you don't like it, it's your choice to find a different bathroom to use, but not your right to kick her out."

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Janet_Girl]

When I was in the process of setting up my transition at work, I was told in no uncertain terms that when I was presenting as female, I was to use the women room.

I can understand the mindset.  I would not want a male in the restroom with me.  But as a transwoman in transition, I should not be single out because of my present genitals. I am still a woman, through and through.

If you look like a duck, quack like a duck, then you're a duck.  A guy in a dress that makes no attempt to present as female is still more likely to be hurt in the mens room.  And he would not be in the ladies for anything other than doing his business.  I would be more afraid of a man taking a child into the men's room, especially if the child did not wish to go.  That would be suspicious to me.

Janet

[Virginia87106]

This isn't that hard.  One simply uses the bathroom that matches their gender presentation.
That being said, if one is presenting as a female, and they have a deep voice, then prudence would demand that they did not talk while in there.
Mutual respect is a great equalizer.
It makes absolutely no difference what the shape of my genitals are.  That is my business and no one else's. 
Women's bathroom all have private stalls.  There is no reason for anyone to "see" ones genitals.
Similarly in men's bathrooms it would be prudent for FtMs to use the private stalls and not the urinals.

[miniangel]

I'm a gg and I'm happy to share my bathroom space with anyone who genuinely identifies as female (or as not-male).

[Renate]

Just to add the obvious:

Anybody using a women's room should use it like a woman.
That means sitting and behaving yourself no matter what your genitals.

No, I wasn't trying to be redundant, Matilda got her post in a minute before I did while I was still typing!

[Janet_Girl]

Many of the women I work with knew me before, and I was worried that there would be some friction if we met in the restroom.  But my fears were unfounded as I have seen most of them in there from time to time and have spoken with them in the course of business.  Just a couple of girls having girl talk in the bano.

Janet

[fae_reborn]

A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.

Agreed.

I'm a gg and I'm happy to share my bathroom space with anyone who genuinely identifies as female (or as not-male).

Here here!  Thank you. 

I actually fought for gender-neutral restrooms while in college, but unfortunately it didn't get enacted.  I have been using the ladies room without any problems since I went full-time two years ago.  If you're presenting as female, use the ladies room.  It's just common sense, and by no means are TG/TS women going into the ladies room for any other purpose than to do their business. 

Even if she doesn't pass that well, if she looks female, and there are no neutral bathrooms nearby, then she should use the ladies room for safety reasons.  But smile, and act like a lady, and everything will be fine.

[Michelle.]

The management prides itself on the cleanliness of these facilities. Gentleman please stand closer to the urinal, it's smaller than you think. Ladies please remain seated throughout the entire performance.

So, peeing in the sink is out of the question? Old Veterans Stadium routine in Philly, good riddance.

Most of what I have read here makes perfect sense.

[tekla]

A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.

Perhaps, but the reverse sucks even more when you really think about it. And we have a lot of words for it, none of them good.  But start with oligarchy.

The American solution, at any rate, such as it is - is thus: Majority rule, minority rights.  However, what is a right vs. what is a privilege is always debatable.

[Tanya1]

To be honest with you- I don't like ANYONE in the bathroom. Male or female.

I wish people would invent personal bathrooms because its uncomfortable to have gender with you.

[tekla]

Yeah, when I have a choice I always pick the unisex 'family friendly' restroom.

[Autumn]

...Okay, since no one has mentioned the legality of it, I'll flat out ask again: What are the laws regarding this? I must be slow, because I am having absolutely 0 luck finding information. What is legal, what isn't? Federally? Do some states have laws?

[tekla]

No federal law.  Fifty states have fifty differing laws, with local laws saying other things in some places.  SO.... no solid answer.

[chrysalis]

I think gendered bathrooms are kind of silly. Ultimately I'd hope that we as humans could learn to all pee together.

[Blaire]

personally i try to find a single or one of the "changin room" restrooms.

hi Julie Marie

[Miniar]

To me, He/she who NEEDS to go, that's who's rights come first.
If you gotta go you gotta go.
If you start telling ppl they can't "go" here or there or everywhere, you'll end up with pee on the floor.

[Chaos_Dagger]

In Ontario Canada, as far as I know, there are no bathroom laws save for one.  The only bathroom law I know of is that it is illegal to refuse to allow someone to use the washroom.  Meaning, if you ask to use the washroom anywhere in ontario and someone says "Employees only" or "I'm sorry we don't have one" or "You have to buy something first", which they do say, it is your right to tell them "Show me the way to the bathroom, before I wet myself, or I will sue the pants off you and your company."  Generally speaking "Women's and Men's" washrooms are a simple matter of courtesy, there is no legal obligation on which you have to enter presenting or not.  That said, it's probably better to go in which ever one your presenting as, but either way no one has the right to kick you out.

Personally, at work (if and when I come out, unless I decide to just get a new job at that point) it won't matter for me as we have a singular unisex bathroom.  Though one of the male employees never shuts or locks the door, that bothers me now even being still "male"  *shudder*

Also as for what I said about the Ontario law about bathrooms, anyone visiting Niagara Falls please feel free to use this to your advantage, as I know at least Burger King on Cliffton Hill has a sign stating "Washrooms are for customers only, or you will have to pay $1 to use them"  even if you see a sign like this, feel free to go in  and use them without paying anyone anything as this IS Illegal.  Furthermore though some stores state "We cannot accept any bills over $50.00" this is also illegal and feel free to ignore it.