The Bathroom Debate - Who's Rights Matter Most?

[Kara]

Just be glad we don't have to use the outhouse, ok? 

[V M]

Grrrrrrr "Potty" can we play grown ups now?

-={LR}=-

Sure thing, If you'd like to play grown ups I'll get the tea set and a little table and chairs out for you 

[Julie Marie]

... I suppose that means I ought to stay out of the mens-room?

Not at all!  Besides the other function that requires sitting there are a lot of men with shy bladders or bladder problems who prefer the stall and sitting.  It makes things easier. 

I had been sitting for years and when in a public restroom I HATED standing at a urinal next to men with their wankers hanging out.  I thought it was gross.  So I'd take a stall and sit.  I never got any funny looks or reactions. 

The whole standing at the trough experience makes a lot of men uneasy and t-girls even more uneasy.  To me it was always kind of primitive, but a lot of men are primitive. 

Min, and all you guys out there, I wouldn't even give sitting in a stall a second thought.  It's a lot more common than you'd think.  As for the MTF standing peeing crowd, DON"T DO IT IN A LADIES BATHROOM!!!  Besides the obvious, it also messes up the toilet seat and we don't like sitting in your pee!

Julie

[Annwyn]

A majority group should never be allowed to dictate the rights of a minority group.

Bull-friggin-hit.

Law abiding citizens with superior militaristic and political power follow the law because it's the laws they made and throw violators in jail.  Granted that's a gross way to put it, but yeah, our court system is a majority group dictating the rights of a minority group.

Besides, who says access a public restroom was a right?  It's not your restroom.

If someone obviously can't pass then it's a disturbance to the majority.  Quite frankly, I'd be uncomfortable too.  I'd be uncomfortable to the point of wanting that individual reprimanded or disciplined.  Realistically, if I were a mother how am I supposed to get the message across to my daughter that it's a girl's exclusive spot free from male perpetrators when there's a dude(who might be female/transwoman but to a stranger looks like a bloke all the same) struttin his stuff?

Public, single stall restrooms shouldn't be a problem.  When a space is shared though, then it's beyond rude; it's invasive to someone else's "right" to a supposedly free space free from members of the opposite sex representing potential pregnancies and whatever they have going through their heads.  The will of the majority definitely over-rules the will of a few.

If you gotta pee that bad and you can't pass worth a hoot, find a single stall restroom or hold it in.

[Maddie Secutura]

Besides the obvious, it also messes up the toilet seat and we don't like sitting in your pee!

I've seen pee on the seats in women's bathrooms. in fact the majority of seats I've seen have it.  Even women are afraid to actually sit down; its more of a squat maneuver.  But standing in the ladies' room is a surefire way to get kicked out.  As for guys, do whatever you want because no one is going to say anything about it. 

Am I the only girl who thought standing to pee was just really darn convenient?

[Arch]

Besides, who says access a public restroom was a right?  It's not your restroom.

Some public restrooms ARE my restrooms. Depends on the space. My uni is a public uni, for example. As a taxpaying member of the public, I own a piece of that.

Also, by your logic, a number of cisgender women that I've met over the years would be barred from the women's restroom simply because some other paranoid yahoo feels that they're too masculine for that space. These women are anatomically female, have a big F on all of their documents, and identify wholly as female. Shall we doom them to the men's room, regardless of these women's feelings and regardless of the reactions of the fellas in the men's room? Shall we take a vote every time these women walk in the door of a public restroom? Shall we demand to see their documents or their genitals? And what about intersex people who present rather ambiguously?

I feel that there is too much natural variation even in cisgender human beings for us to be so dogmatic about public restrooms. And socially there are many ways to be female and many ways to be male. If the woman with her little girl doesn't recognize that there are lots of feminine-appearing men and masculine-appearing women on this planet, she needs to reeducate herself and stop imposing her bigotry on her children. Not that she will.

One man's opinion...

[Teknoir]

If someone obviously can't pass then it's a disturbance to the majority.  Quite frankly, I'd be uncomfortable too.  I'd be uncomfortable to the point of wanting that individual reprimanded or disciplined.

You would honestly reprimand or discipline someone just starting out on their transition, effectively outing and embarrassing them, and possibly causing them psychological harm... just for unintentionally making you feel uncomfortable for a minute or two?!

That's a disappointing lack of understanding, and a very self centered view.

By logical extension of your argument - any minority who dares make the majority uncomfortable should be reprimanded.

If the world ran on that concept, none of us would have much in the way of rights, treatment options, or ability to transition. It took pioneers making the majority uncomfortable and fighting for the rights of the minority, for us to enjoy the freedoms that we have today.

It's not my restroom, but it isn't yours either.

[Annwyn]

Of course it's selfish.  However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote.  It's how we do things in the US.  Sure I know it's not fair, but it's an unfair system and trying to change an unfair system to a fair one won't happen.  Single stall restrooms would be the only solution that's entirely non-discriminatory on any basis towards a person's profile.

The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual.  It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with.  Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition.  If one can't play the game then well, game over.  If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.

[Miniar]

If public restrooms weren't a right, people wouldn't be fined/arrested for public urinating.

If you got to go, you got to go.

Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition.  If one can't play the game then well, game over.  If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.

Only, transitioning is not a game.
To a transexual, transition is more a matter of life.

[Teknoir]

Of course it's selfish.  However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote.  It's how we do things in the US.

So, what you are saying is that punishing people who make you uncomfortable through unintentional non-conformity is the right thing to do, as that's what happens in the US.

I repectfully disagree on the grounds that making people uncomforterble is not a crime.

Additionally, I don't recall there ever being a vote on this to determine the opinion of the majority.

An opinion is just an opinion. As it can be neither proven nor disproven, it by extension cannot be "right" or "wrong". It is not a fact.

The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual.  It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with.

For instance, the right to use the restroom matching one's gender without being reprimanded?

Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition.  If one can't play the game then well, game over.  If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.

Transition is not a game, people are not "playing". You cannot "quit" being transsexual. While some people have the luxury of choosing if they transition, for many people it is not a choice - it's a psychologial imperative.

[Annwyn]

Only, transitioning is not a game.
To a transexual, transition is more a matter of life.

Point being?  It's still a system in which to conform.

Additionally, I don't recall there ever being a vote on this to determine the opinion of the majority.

An opinion is just an opinion. As it can be neither proven nor disproven, it by extension cannot be "right" or "wrong". It is not a fact.

It's an assumed majority, if you're going to attempt to dispute something so obvious then there's no point in discussing this.

An opinion of majority is made right by the majority because it fits the majority and therefore makes the majority satisfied.  In other words: it's easier and serves to keep the large portion of the population at rest on the issue.

For instance, the right to use the restroom matching one's gender without being reprimanded?

A restroom is fit to an individuals genitals.  Hence why men stand up and chicks sit down.  Those are the two options.  It's not about gender, it's about genitals.  Quit raggin on me if you don't like the system and get it switched to single stall bathrooms, or is all you wanna do is whine and expect a mutually exclusive system by design to bend over backwards for your needs in disregard to the majority?

Push for single stall restrooms.  It's not that hard.  Most everyone wants that anyways, it's more private, and privacy matters when you're taking your pants down.  The more you talk about it, the more others will, and bam eventually things will work out.

But no, the system is fine just the way it is, it's just not fine for a select few, including me, unless we really get our game on and don't slack off in the transitioning process.

[stacyB]

It's an assumed majority, if you're going to attempt to dispute something so obvious then there's no point in discussing this.

Sorry, but if we were to take that as gospel than we would go back to gay bashing, slavery, the aryan master race... where would it end, besides the crematoria? And since when is it so obvious? Decades ago it was so obvious that women should stay at home and make babies instead of working. Centuries ago it was so obvious that the world was flat, and suggesting otherwise was a blasphemous act against the church. Ages ago it was so obvious that leaving the safety of the cave was a death sentence...

We talk about rights and privileges... in this country, it is our right, not just our privilege to effect change. Part of a democracy is voting in elected officials to represent our views and vote in laws... but part of democracy is also to remove said same officials and to repeal laws. Nothing is written in stone.

Its neither obvious not explainable why there is a two gender potty system. It cannot be argued for on any level... and we are neither required nor obligated to accomodate someone elses comfort level. Anyone who has a problem is welcome to find a single stall bathroom or hold it in.

Everyone is also welcome to their own point of view. No one should be silenced or told to go away.

And in so far as transitioning... no one has a right to dictate who and how one should do so. Its not a game. Only one way its game over, and thats with a toe tag.

[Annwyn]

Anyone who has a problem is welcome to find a single stall bathroom or hold it in.

Which is exactly as fair as asking the offending individual inflaming people's insecurities to do the same thing.

[xsocialworker]

Of course it's selfish.  However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote.  It's how we do things in the US.  Sure I know it's not fair, but it's an unfair system and trying to change an unfair system to a fair one won't happen.  Single stall restrooms would be the only solution that's entirely non-discriminatory on any basis towards a person's profile.

The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual.  It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with.  Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition.  If one can't play the game then well, game over.  If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.

To be polite---------I disagree with everything you have have said
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 02:59:12 PM
To show how I believe you are wrong would take an essay on World History from the Confederacy to the streets of Tehran as I type. Other than that, I don't have the energy other than to say you sound like a Republican. Sorry. Your theories would have to lead to some agency such as the TSA setting up check in lines at restrooms. I know genetic women who have been been challenged in women's restroom's because they had buzz cuts. You are today's

                                     WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD[/b

Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 04:01:30 PM
when will you be getting a show on FOX Noise?
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 05:05:05 PM
"What are you rebellin against?'
'Whadda ya got?'----------Elvis
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 06:06:40 PM
You make transitioning sound as cheerful as stepping in fire ants
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 07:08:57 PM

Of course it's selfish.  However in this regard, my selfishness is backed by majority, making me right by vote.  It's how we do things in the US.  Sure I know it's not fair, but it's an unfair system and trying to change an unfair system to a fair one won't happen.  Single stall restrooms would be the only solution that's entirely non-discriminatory on any basis towards a person's profile.

The goal of a transsexual in transition isn't to secure new rights as a transsexual.  It's to blend in and attain the same rights had as if one were never a transsexual to begin with.  Camouflage and conformity, those are the two biggest players in the game of transition.  If one can't play the game then well, game over.  If you don't like the game, quit playing it and find a new one.

if the US is unfair on a scale of 1-10,where are we in relation to Saudi Arabia,Jamaica, and Iran?
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 08:11:46 PM
camaflage and conformity? Kinda like passing for Aryan in 30"s Berlin? Not everybody can be as fortunate as yourself ( or myself for that matter) and be 100% passable.
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 09:15:12 PM
As for passing, although I passed perfectly from day one-Who is going to be the passing police ? I guess the devil's in the details
Post Merge: June 18, 2009, 10:17:57 PM
A good woman does more than sit when peeing  She should have brains ???and compassion That could tell you where to start

[Annwyn]

Lulz, wow what a conniption!

Peace out!

[V M]

Wooooo hoooo!!! call the Potty Police!!!  The bathroom debate is getting hot 

Did you need some help sitting down ma'am? 

[stacyB]

I guess you could say the fit has hit the shan! 

[Mister]

Worst person in the world?  Holy crap, SW...  that was uncalled for.  Annwyn may have unpopular beliefs regarding who should piss where, but I'm pretty sure someone's kicked their dog, been sexually inappropriate with a toddler or something much more worthy of that title.

[V M]

Yeah, really. Annwyn may be a bit feisty at times, But I've personally encountered folks that make her look like a sweet heart 

[Buffy]

I have never seen such a load of crap written in a thread about toilets.

Some people are just enjoying taking the piss.

Buffy